ourxseven

iTrader: (1)

I love the DTSS ...... whenever I let a friend drive the vert 5k in second through some real twistys and they are amazed at the response , i don't have the heart to tell them the rear wheels are steering too.

Secondmessiah

the biggest thing i dont like about the DTSS is that when the oversteer comes, it can be really sudden and the DTSS can make hte rear end feel loose. That said, i think it improves handling in a street car context.

raptor22

I think this is exactly what icemark was talking about, and why most stock cars are made to understeer. You should never hit the brakes when you are recovering from a slide, because it makes the car spin. You made a mistake, and it has nothing to do with the DTSS.

I bought my car with a some suspension work done by the previous owner, so the DTSS may even be new. In any case, it does have it, and I like the extra nimbleness it gives. I have always found the car very predictable at all speeds. Even running through twisty roads late at night, with the car sliding occasionally, the rearend has been predictible with excellent feedback.

No complaints here.

--Alex

rrw

iTrader: (2)

sounds like you want to put a 13b in a fox body

drft_180sx

i wish i had a scanner to scan the Jack Yamaguchi RX7 Book's chapter on DTSS to show you what the principles are behind it.

The K-M hub and the toe in during hard cornering and the slight toe out during straight line driving (for better initial turn in), etc.

I wonder if you can pick up a new hup w/ dtss from Mazda still, because most of ours are probably worn out. Anyone know? cost?

TRRAPLN

I had to touch the brakes because the car was sliding into traffic waiting at the light going in the opposite direvtion. Two lane road sideways sliding up to people in cars staring in fright at you coming at them.
Like I said, I didn't have enough room to power out of it or ride it out. When the rear end snapped, it pivoted on the front wheels a swung the rear towards the waiting traffic. Just enough room to swing a full 180. I guess I touched the break just at the right time.

No this may not have been the DTSS fault. Bad driving/decision, certainly. Worn tires, slippery road? I have done that manuver several times with always traction in the rear and a sharp turn just to get a feel for DTSS.

I did not like the feeling the car was displaying at 100+ MPH.
Perhaps the bushing were worn out. They looked good when removed but that doesn't mean the rubber or interfaces had deteriorated.

124K miles, squishy rear end, cost of new carriers ($500?) perhaps or even new bushings ($180?) vs. $50 DTSS Eliminators from Racing Beat. I made the call.

ourxseven

iTrader: (1)

can anyone else do that ..... that would be very interesting to read

raptor22

Since when is spinning uncontrollably safer than powering out of a corner? At least with the latter you have some degree of control.

And yes, the DTSS doesn't make the car unstable at 100+, either. Mine is rock solid at 120+.

Anyways, thats enough criticism in one day, im out. Just take the car someplace safe next time.

ilike2eatricers

search for it under my username. I believe I have it hosted somewhere or posted a link to it before.

raptor22

Hey, this is interesting, I did a search on DTSS and found LOTS of replies that went something like "when I hit the brakes in a hard turn the rear end comes out....I HATE DTSS!"

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

$180 OEM from any Mazda dealer, or so I hear. Arm + DTSS bushing. You can't buy the bushing seperate. The DTSS eliminators replace the bushing only. Please excuse me if I'm misunderstanding the question. I'm not familiar with the particulars of the rear suspension nor the names of the various pieces.

On the matter of the side debate, I don't see how it's even possible that the DTSS eliminator bushings are a substitute for some $500 part, while the proper bushing plus the arm are not. Replacing the DTSS should do just as well as the DTSS eliminators at solving any problem. Regardless, he made his choice to save $140 and get the DTSS eliminators. Not my business.

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

I realize this is an old thread, I came across it looking for some other info...
DTSS works quite well, up to a point, and hence why in street driving, it is generally beneficial - and if you're driving beyond the point where it is on the street, then you're a retard, because that limit is pretty high, and you should be exercising your need for speed on the the track at an autocross or track day.
Safety lecture off/
DTSS, as has been correctly pointed out already, gives slight toe out under light lateral acceleration loads, which makes the car more responsive to steering input, enhancing the sense of agility of the car. At higher cornering loads, the rears deflect to toe-in, a more stable configuration, which under normal street driving basically means the rears are doing their best to prevent you from spinning the car with massive oversteer.
The problem with DTSS when driving 9/10ths or faster is it makes it hard to find the limit and drive predictably at it. I found in years of autoXing the 7 in stock, where changing bushings of any sort is a no-no, that the car was consistent in being unpredictable when driven hard - usually resulting in sudden snap oversteer - and I can say with confidence it's not just driver error - a lot of other drivers like to ride along with me, because I have a reputation for being smooth and not upsetting the car. I'm pretty sure that's something I quickly had to learn with the DTSS, because it really doesn't take well to rough inputs - and I've always respected my machinery, and don't figure "drive it like you stole it" means try and wreck it in an afternoon. I believe part of the problem with driving at the limit, especially on r-compound tires or really grippy streets like the Falken 615s, is that you are inherently on the edge of traction - and changes in the surface (yes, racetracks have bumps and frost cracks, at least around here), as well as the behavior of the tire, alternating between high slip angle and grip, causes the rear toe to quickly change, and not always appropriately for the next moment's conditions. With DTSS, I found that once the rear started to slide (and I'm not talking about a low-speed, power induced oversteer), it was too late to do anything but hang on for the ride, and then complete the spin with power oversteer - always a smoky crowd pleaser, but not the fast way around a track or autocross course. And btw, my car is a low km example, although never winter driven, which goes a long way to preserving all sorts of things that tend to wear out, and my DTSS bushings were still in good shape at nearly 15 years old and 7 years of regular autocrossing and lapping on it - I've kept them actually, on the off chance I decide to change it back. I never noticed the aforementioned problems with the DTSS even in fairly aggressive street driving.

When I replaced the DTSS bushings with solid ones, I found the car immediately was much more "settled" feeling at the limit, and that it was much easier to sense and control break-away at the rear - in fact I can't remember having any incidents of snap-oversteer since. And in addition, because of careful alignment (I do my own with Longacre equipment), it still feels just as agile in street driving.

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

I started this thread. yay me. My car handles like a bag of rocks now. Before I blew my last engine I installed a lower arm bar that I made, and everything was perfect. But then I blew the engine and took the lower arm bar off. After installing the engine and going for a test drive I noticed my lower arm bar on the side of the driveway and remembered that I didnt even put the bolts back into the holes where the lower arm bar connected. Needless to say, my steering wheel wasnt strait any more, and I took it to get aligned. He got the wheel strait, but I dont think its aligned like it should be. Now I have major UNDERstreer, when I had nice oversteer before. If I turn sharp at all, even low speeds, the front starts to squeel and refuses to turn. I have to drump the clutch to even do a little drift around a poll.... Im scared to drive my car hard at all any more.

ProjectR13B

iTrader: (1)

I love the DTSS when gripping. sucks to drift with it, but it can be done, just difficult. the dtss makes it sooo much easier to stick corners though.

apexFD

[QUOTE=TweakGames;6607041] felt like the *** was going out, but . .... it doesnt. It just plants and grips. (feels like the *** is about a feet out, but isnt)[QUOTE]

Shouldnt it be the other way around. *** end sucked in at higher lateral g's and steer away at low lateral g's? Or was he not pulling enought g's?


-Ben

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

Update :

Am I crazy for liking dtss: YES

Soooooo I just got rid of my dtss before the weekend. I had a drift event this last weekend and WOW. I would have died if I had dtss in still. I will have a full review in a few days after I do some more tests.

Butter

I have experience this while driving back from Santa Cruz, CA to Pittsburg, CA. Driving on CA-1 freeway, going 70mph then I saw the 45mph C turn sign (or close to this), I step on the brakes and turned the steering wheel. The rear end comes out and the car did a 360 turn, recovered from it and the car keep on sliding but I still crashed into the center block pavement while trying to countersteer. The impact wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Only damage it did was the bumper thats next to the front left headlights. Fixed it 3 days laters.

The cause is probably:
1.my bad driving
2.tire thread on the left rear is worn out right side had around 30% left
3.wet pavenment
4.DTSS worn out?

of course I dont have the luxury of driving a fully working DTSS so I won't know. Oh and for those that did elimate their DTSS have anyone used the product from www.secretelement.com?

inflatablepets

Well, My last FC would snap when DTSS kicked in. Much more miles on it then my current one. The current one had been garaged and has 6200 on the clock. The lower milage one is totally different that the higher milage one.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Hitting the brakes causes the weight to transfer to the front wheels, making the rear end kick out. Never hit the brakes during a turn in a rwd car, especially once it goes out of control. It's usually better to maintain speed or accelerate slightly. If you go out of control, gently turn the wheel away from the turn until you regain control, then gently turn it back into the turn to go back in the direction you want to. Fwd cars are more user friendly, because their front end tends to break loose first and hitting the brakes tends to restore the grip up front. That said, if you want to take the turn fast instead of freaking out and braking, then rwd will grip better. Also front mid engine (and rear mid engine) cars like the RX-7 spin easier... and come out of a spin easier and are easier to control if you know what you're doing. It's because the weight is more towards the center.

Tire tread is just for removing deep water. Otherwise you grip slightly better without it. But if by "wet" you mean pools of water, then yeah it'll hurt a lot to have worn tread. You can test it with an upside-down penny. If the tread doesn't reach Lincoln's head, you need new tires.

As for the eliminator bushings, Racing Beat already has great quality on everything including these bushings I'm sure. Do you need them? I dunno. A bad DTSS tends to make you spin out easily and if it's really bad it can make your car unstable at high speed. I don't know an easy way to try this out, so I'd just get them inspected. Ima bet it's too old on most RX-7's though.

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

No...no...no...no no no...no-no-no-no...

All of this, 9 times out of 10...sounds like inexperienced driving. Not DTSS. Wasn't there a thread recently, including a post made by Icemark detailing how most people that preach 'eliminate the DTSS' haven't actually done it themselves? And that most people are not sure whether or not the DTSS bushings are ACTUALLY that horrible because no one has replaced them, along with other bushings in the suspension and steering system on a stock and decent setup?

Hm... I personally like the DTSS, but that's just me. Back when I had my first FCs was when I really learned about the characteristics of RWD cars. It was a dual learning experience, and it was a bit funky. I'll go along with how it can feed you some mixed signals. Is it letting go or not? But having driven a few other RWD cars through the same corner, cars without DTSS do not feel as well planted and can hardly make it to the same level of stability as the FC.

The argument of highspeed stability being scary due to DTSS bushings having 'worn out' I simply do not agree with. Enough said.

At some point, whenever I run into some money like a closed glass door, and I have replaced my suspension. A bushing kit will follow, and so will replacements for the DTSS.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Yes, it is primarily inexperienced driving behavior, with a secondary in general poor maintenance of the vehicle, tires, shocks and alignment.



That was my post. I stand properly accused of pimping DTSS and being critical of others driving skills. To goddamn many kids that feel the G's and then think they can drive fast. Then, they run out of road and skills at the same exact moment.

WTF do they expect to happen?

Acesanugal

iTrader: (5)

A miracle, maybe...

jon0886

iTrader: (1)

i love dtss.

but thats probably cus i like to grip. the few occassions i feel like sliding out the rear, it does make it quite difficult.

it improves rear lateral traction, so you can get your lateral g's up nice and high, then when it lets go, you're already cornering very hard, causing the snap-oversteer feeling.

high speed instability? a few years back, i was much more naive, pegged the speedometer, and then some. it was rock solid. and that was with blown shocks, but good alignment.

this is on 21 year old stock equipment.... so quite possibly blown, maybe not. but i definitely would not blame anything on the car, unless i was trying to drift it.

thats just my personal experience and felt like sharing it cus thats what forums are for.

'87 turbo II

iTrader: (1)

sometimes when I do a snake left-right or a sweeping S turn I feel the entire car grip and shake very violently(I'm talking, throw me into the bolster enough to kinda hurt my shoulder violent) to the direction change without so much a chirp from the tires, gripped the whole time.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

I sad a bad DTSS will hurt high speed stability, or so I've heard. As in people find that the problem goes away after they get the eliminators. I hear a good DTSS, OTOH, is awesome. And I was likewise explaining how bad driving caused the quoted problem, not DTSS. Hitting the brakes while cornering near the car's limits always causes the tail to kick out regardless of which car you have.