nepopolus

had a couple thoughts while at work today, now most of this is coming from being used too the mustang chassis but how heavy is the stock k member on the fc? Seems too be the same style of stamped bs that ford has, couldn't you easily make this out of tube steel? If this was done you would also be able too alter and play with moving around the suspension a bit if desired, or have the ability too drop the engine down as well.
Anyone else ever wonder about this? it seems almost non existent in the import community but is a normal change too domestics

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

factory weighs about 80lbs, it could be cut in half if someone were so inclined.

yes it could be done, but how many would buy it is the question.

i surely wouldn't go through all the hassle unless it would pull in about $800 per unit.


camber plates are cheaper
the engine can be dropped about an 2 inches without the need for a subframe, differential angle would need to be adjusted accordingly. the oil pan would also be exposed
shaving off 40lbs can be done for much less cost unless it was the last thing you could do



why would a 'stang owner want to bother lowering the engine or dick around with camber? they're straight line pigs.

nepopolus

wow and I thought my mustang k member was a heavyweight LOL
that is the same cost as my upr k member I purchased, granted that came with a arms and coils for the front. That piece weighed 21 pounds too lug around the 4v 4.6 haha...now I am interested in this.
only problem is would people be willing too spend the money. I for one would if you could lower the engine even more especially.

Despite the popular vote of they can not turn I assure you they can are they better then a rx7? I doubt it, But they are not worthless piles as some point it out too be.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

it is probably the only thing that mazda cut corners on, along with the exhaust(but granted they did have to keep the factory cars quiet) in weight.

i don't like talking myself out of making new products but the simple truth is, the market is rather dry. even though there are tons of FCs still around, less than 1% seem to drop any mentionable amount of money on them unless it is merely to keep them roadworthy. most owners reserve costs for engine failures(sad but true).

think our K frame is heavy... the FD subframe is even heavier, and i probably exaggerated the FC frame somewhat, because i remember the FD unit being quite heavy. there should be a thread somewhere which lists most components weight, which would correct me.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

we've thought about it, Paul wants to do a subframe that would give us double wishbone suspension in the front. it would cost money though, so this counts 99% of the FC owners out.

nepopolus

sad truth is always a mother i suppose, if the market where the same for mustangs(k member is needed for a turbocharger) then i guess it would be different. I am just surprised that this never caught on with any of the higher populated import cars, The k member is always neglected stamped steel with nice bits all around it for the most part.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

by the time the FC was an affordable car for most people it had dropped in value and dependability like a rock. today most are projects, rotting projects or have owners that simply enjoy having a running rotary car. the seldom few go the extra lengths to upgrade the cars to their full potential but those are so few and far between that it just doesn't seem like a feasable market to accomodate.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I'll grant the germ of truth highlighted above but think this canard is broadly overused.
How useful would the extensively upgraded suspension be for a streetcar owner?
Because I wouldn't be a customer for such a product doesn't automatically mean I'm cheap, it could also indicate that I don't see the point/benefit.

But I'm also poor, so there's that.

nepopolus

i can easily understand that, i honestly do not think i have seen one fc that was actually track orientated around my area ever lol. Sure there is the super flush/drift/rustbuckets but.....well i will not spew hate onto that in this thread LOL that can be a flame war in itself. I guess i am finally starting too see the limits as far as how much help vendors can do for ya, not saying that there is not a community for the car, too be honest i am surprised there are as many as there is,how do you people not go under with such cheap people?

But it does make me give that much more respect for the rx7's that are actually at a high potential since im sure most of it was pure DIY

nepopolus

there is basically no point too this upgrade at all on a street car, But at the same time coilover suspension is also pointless,And you see cars equipped with that all over the place. The only application either of these should be on if anything would be someone with a weekend warrior that is cruised on the streets from time too time or a dedicated track car.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

true on both.

there are four benefits.

1. the suspension geometry is better. more of a race car thing this
2. it comes with bigger brakes, we wanna use off the shelf parts as much as possible, and Rx8 brakes are cheap and HUGE, and that is just the obvious starting point.
3. if you redesign the crossmember it means that any engine could bolt in, REW, 20B, 13B-MSP, etc
4. its cool!

so for a serious car build, it means instead of making funky engine brackets and such, the chosen engine just drops in, like its made for the car, plus you get bigger brakes, and better suspension.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Oh, I was never questioning the benefits, they are indisputably myriad and dramatic.

I refer to the concept of a cradle as a "product" rather than a "project".
I would avidly follow a build thread as you built/tuned such a set up but would spend only seconds considering purchasing such a kit.

It's not money (or lack thereof) that eliminates 99% of FC owners as potential customers, it's that the product is aimed at such a very small niche in an already stagnant pool.

It hardly seems fair to deliberately sell an elite/specialized product while blaming the masses for not buying it.

nepopolus

basically a lot of the same benefits as the mustang kit from some of the better company's, now i wanna see this happen LOL.....damn niche markets. At least some of the people who can make this possible have thought about it

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

true its not a good example of a mass market product!

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

we've been talking about it for years, maybe its time to do some leg work?

nepopolus

could always make some sort of a group buy/interest post about it, if anything see if the track rats on the forums seem interested. Was a concept from you guys ever put onto paper?

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

we've had a bunch of meetings... i keep blowing up the CAD computer, but once its back running in a few days i could draw up some stuff

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i didn't say all RX7 owners are cheap, mainly just FC/FB owners. i have helped restore a few old schools and the third generation RX7s along with the RX8s keep the business up.

but when it comes to second gens, i'm about fed up in dealing with them. most that roll through the door are complete piles of trash that require much more work than the owner is anticipating simply to get the car running properly, let alone driving properly. the most popular seller is FC engines though, but working on the cars themselves usually winds up a wash or even a loss of profit trying to meet expectations or cost limitations.

you'd probably be hard pressed to find someone more knowlegable with the second gen 7(not trying to sound egotistical) and there are many days i consider not working on these cars anymore. in fact in the near future i plan not to and simply build engines and work on another project i have planned. most people simply cannot afford to get their cars up to roadworthy standards and it only gets worse with time. note this is not all owners but the majority simply aren't worth giving free time trying to please the customer after spending hours upon hours building an engine to only find a myriad of other problems with the car itself. i'm beyond tired of combing through cars, sorting them out on limited budgets which also limits my desire to want to design new products for the cars that aren't simply bolted together with off the shelf bits and pieces.

that said, i bet one could easily sell a tubular/adjustable FD subframe for $800-1500 to dozens of people without any hesitation(which is why they have much more support than the 2nd generation does).

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

Not all fc owners are cheap and don't get the job done.. there's also the fact that you can get these cars very cheap as well in comparison to fds.

You are right though, most don't realize how much these cars cost to fix and make nice.

Fd owners usually know what they're getting into so they're willing to pay to have it done right.

There are committed,proud fc owners.

I'm one of them...too bad you're on the opposite side of.the USA.

Rotary > Pistons

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i didn't say all were, but most either can't afford to do everything needed or lack the knowledge to do the repairs themselves.

but it's rather difficult to screw up washing and waxing at least, which at least makes most any car at least presentable.

maybe my rants will eventually push some people to do some of the menial things themselves.


the last thing i want 10 years from now is to be working on cars that look even worse than most do now, by most owners who apparently don't appreciate them. once a car is fixed up it is rather easy to maintain that condition with minor effort. throwing a few dollars to fix a delapidated engine isn't appreciating the car.

i can't count how many cars looked like they were drug out of a field, dusty and oxidized, got a new engine, shiny engine bay and left only to come back for maintenance months later looking like they still just were drug out of a field. except now the engine bay is dusty... it makes want to cut myself.

i guess some people are just too prissy to get their hands dirty, but i simply can't understand why they drive a dirty nasty car. some people just become content with the condition i suppose and lose sight of how the car could look, feel and drive with a little effort.

who's car is the cleanest car in my shop right now? my own(i also know every single one of its flaws and judge it the harshest), and i work 60-70 hours a week before even looking at it.


with that i will end my rant about these cars.

nepopolus

The problem is actually the car itself to be honest prime example is my own pair, I picked one up a little over a year ago for 900$ the only reason I purchased it was it has a rebuilt engine from rotary resurrection with 20k miles on it(going to sell no need for a no power engine) and it had no rust on the body or chassis. Suspension was crap but too be honest that's exactly what I was looking for. Then I picked up a turbo 2 for 1900$ with 2 engines and 87000 miles, one engine was already rebuilt and is going in the rust free chassis the other I am probably fixing and selling the car. There is a common occurrence here...they cost nothing. The only reason I do not see these turning into a track rat more im sure the is the whole "magic engine" "unreliable" typical comments and concerns.

The car itself is too easily accessible, a 16 year old could buy one with a couple minimum wage paychecks. Not to point fingers but how many of these cars come too your shop and get engine rebuilds/servicing done that are owned by a younger crowd? I have a feeling that there parents may pay the bill for there sweet new engine on a crap chassis
or you get people who gets cars like mine swap a turbo engine into it and think it will last forever with a "jdm" engine that probably has sat since I graduated elementary school. Then when it blows after a couple weeks they look for people like you.

As for looking like crap, most people cannot afford a good paint job or justify getting one when it cost 4 times the amount of the entire car.This is where the DIY paint flies into action.

But on another note I am excited too see a mock up of what you guys are thinking j9fd3s.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

the majority of owners are 25 and under.

the older owners usually have the freshly washed/waxed cars with a book of maintenance notes.

one owner brought in an '88 vert with 18k original miles, had it serviced and brought it in for more service a year later with 48k miles on it. looked like it rolled right off the showroom, although it did need a few minor things fixed like blown trunk lid struts and the clutch was slipping simply because of how old it was. of course those things were addressed because the list was short and not 5 pages long.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

Make the new subframe so that a 13B or LS engine bolts in, and you might have a "good" market for them


I am interested, and poor

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

ok i will let the board know that due to the huge groundswell of popular support the design phase of this project is a go! this is actually kind of exciting.

the first hurdle is fixing the damn computer, its an XP64 machine, so its blown up 6 times in the last year, and we call the rotary unreliable...

clokker

iTrader: (2)

That's not unreliable, it's desperately attempting suicide and you keep thwarting it.
Make my day and tell me it's an Athlon.