AFRs seem bass-ackwards on a stock NA S4., What's the deal?
06-17-07, 11:44 PM
#1
AFRs seem bass-ackwards on a stock NA S4., What's the deal?
I've got an NA S4 that I'm fairly new to (it's my first rotary). It came with an AEM wideband O2 and gauge, and they've been working quite well so far (AFRs make sense, in that when I'm cruising, it's 14.7, and when I'm on it, it's closer to 12).
Now, when I'm cruising, the AFRs will stay quite rich 12:1, then when I am at about 1/4~1/3 throttle, they go to 14.7 (as if I'm cruising, when I'm really lightly accelerating), then go back down towards 12:1 when I'm really on it. Driveability seems the same, as does idle.
Is there a common flaw that could be causing this? Is my TPS a likely culprit? It almost seems as if the ECU doesn't know when I'm at part throttle/cruise, and is confusing it with full throttle. What should I check?
Thanks!
Now, when I'm cruising, the AFRs will stay quite rich 12:1, then when I am at about 1/4~1/3 throttle, they go to 14.7 (as if I'm cruising, when I'm really lightly accelerating), then go back down towards 12:1 when I'm really on it. Driveability seems the same, as does idle.
Is there a common flaw that could be causing this? Is my TPS a likely culprit? It almost seems as if the ECU doesn't know when I'm at part throttle/cruise, and is confusing it with full throttle. What should I check?
Thanks!
06-18-07, 08:16 AM
#4
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in your post you said AFRs made sense, but then went on to say they didn't make sense?
if you really are getting 12s on cruise and 14s on full throttle that is not right.
do a proper tune up at least and see what you get.
NAs do run rich, especially after some modifications, but you shouldn't going lean like that on throttle. it's not dangerous on NAs but it's a sign somethign isn't right.
if you really are getting 12s on cruise and 14s on full throttle that is not right.
do a proper tune up at least and see what you get.
NAs do run rich, especially after some modifications, but you shouldn't going lean like that on throttle. it's not dangerous on NAs but it's a sign somethign isn't right.
06-18-07, 08:57 AM
#5
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There's a major contradiction in your first statement vs the rest. Got me.
If your cursing along at a steady speed, and the 02 sensor is working with the ECU, the AFR will read in the 14.7 range. BUT as you cruise along, and say come to a slight decline in the road, you'll have a tendency to just let up a tad on the accelerator pedal to maintain a steady speed. When you do this, the afr will drop down to say 12-13 something until the road levels out again and you apply just a tad of pedal again. Then the afr will return to the 14.7 afr range.
Imho the change from 14.7 to say 12-13 something is the ECU acting as an accelerator pump in a sense, so that when you reapply pedal again the mixture won't be so lean the engine bucks.
If your cursing along at a steady speed, and the 02 sensor is working with the ECU, the AFR will read in the 14.7 range. BUT as you cruise along, and say come to a slight decline in the road, you'll have a tendency to just let up a tad on the accelerator pedal to maintain a steady speed. When you do this, the afr will drop down to say 12-13 something until the road levels out again and you apply just a tad of pedal again. Then the afr will return to the 14.7 afr range.
Imho the change from 14.7 to say 12-13 something is the ECU acting as an accelerator pump in a sense, so that when you reapply pedal again the mixture won't be so lean the engine bucks.
06-18-07, 09:50 AM
#7
Sorry, I didn't explain myself very well.
Let me restart.
When I first got the car, the AFRs were doing what they were supposed to. The car would enter closed loop when I was cruising at a steady speed and at very low throttle, but then when I gave it throttle, it'd go down to 13-12-etc... That was fine.
Now, the car cruises at 12:1 at very low throttle. If I give it just a bit of gas, (1/4~1/3 throttle), it'll be accelerating, but drive as if it thinks it's supposed to be in closed loop, that is to say, at 1/4-1/3 throttle, the car sits at 14.7:1.
Finally, under heavy throttle, it will transition back down to 12:1. Towards redline AFRs were approaching 11.7:1.
What concerns me is not the fact that it runs rich , but the fact that it won't enter closed loop under cruise conditions, and then leans out in mild throttle application.
Again, the car is 100% stock (except for exhaust), and ran fine before, so I'm inclined to think that something is broken.
Let me restart.
When I first got the car, the AFRs were doing what they were supposed to. The car would enter closed loop when I was cruising at a steady speed and at very low throttle, but then when I gave it throttle, it'd go down to 13-12-etc... That was fine.
Now, the car cruises at 12:1 at very low throttle. If I give it just a bit of gas, (1/4~1/3 throttle), it'll be accelerating, but drive as if it thinks it's supposed to be in closed loop, that is to say, at 1/4-1/3 throttle, the car sits at 14.7:1.
Finally, under heavy throttle, it will transition back down to 12:1. Towards redline AFRs were approaching 11.7:1.
What concerns me is not the fact that it runs rich , but the fact that it won't enter closed loop under cruise conditions, and then leans out in mild throttle application.
Again, the car is 100% stock (except for exhaust), and ran fine before, so I'm inclined to think that something is broken.
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06-18-07, 12:28 PM
#8
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if you are inclined to think something is broken, then do some checking.
O2 sensor is one place to start. TPS adjustment, etc. are also the usual things to check.
and i'm assuming you aren't getting a Check Engine Light?
O2 sensor is one place to start. TPS adjustment, etc. are also the usual things to check.
and i'm assuming you aren't getting a Check Engine Light?
06-18-07, 04:14 PM
#11
It has the catalytic converter that's built into the manifold, but not any post-cats after that.
The air pump is on the car, and the belt is connected, but beyond that, I'm not too sure.
What is an ACV?
I'll read the service manual right now and try to learn more about the Air Pump's function, I didn't think to look in that direction.
Thanks for your help so far, hailers.
EDIT: I see that the ACV is a valve that switches were the pumped air gets sent, am I right? I don't have any of the cats, but still have the factory reactive chamber.
What happens if the air pump and ACV are not functioning properly? Will I see different AFRs if they are functioning intermittently, because the wideband is downstream of that whole assembly?
The air pump is on the car, and the belt is connected, but beyond that, I'm not too sure.
What is an ACV?
I'll read the service manual right now and try to learn more about the Air Pump's function, I didn't think to look in that direction.
Thanks for your help so far, hailers.
EDIT: I see that the ACV is a valve that switches were the pumped air gets sent, am I right? I don't have any of the cats, but still have the factory reactive chamber.
What happens if the air pump and ACV are not functioning properly? Will I see different AFRs if they are functioning intermittently, because the wideband is downstream of that whole assembly?
Last edited by ilia; 06-18-07 at 04:22 PM.
06-19-07, 04:53 PM
#12
Update:
Disconnected the TPS to check it's readings, reconnected it, now the car really doesn't do anything right.
Runs halfway OK until 1/3-1/2 throttle. At 1/2 throttle, air:fuel goes to 10.0:1, and the car bucks hard.
The TPS was indeed out of adjustment, and after the car started doing this, I adjusted it so that the car showed a reading of 1 volt. That didn't really help anything. Any ideas?
Disconnected the TPS to check it's readings, reconnected it, now the car really doesn't do anything right.
Runs halfway OK until 1/3-1/2 throttle. At 1/2 throttle, air:fuel goes to 10.0:1, and the car bucks hard.
The TPS was indeed out of adjustment, and after the car started doing this, I adjusted it so that the car showed a reading of 1 volt. That didn't really help anything. Any ideas?
06-19-07, 06:58 PM
#13
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ACV sends air to the exaust ports that are..............before the 02 sensor location. Fresh air mixed with exaust gas equals a leaner mixture than what is really being burnt.
Then there's other times when the ACV vents the air overboard into the silencer in the fender and in that case,. more or less does not effect the reading of the 02 sensor.
Easiest way to overcome that is to remove the blue elect connector off the Relief solenoid. Then the airpump air goes overboard all the time and does not effect the 02 sensor.
On a normal WORKING RX with a wideband, at idle you'd see something in the 15 plus afr with a hot/warmed up engine. Pull the Blue connector off and the afr will go to the low 13's afr. That's because the airpump air is being dumped overboard.
If a 02 sensor is working right, you can cruise and the afr will not ever get above the mid 15's (I'm being generous, low 15 is closer to norm) afr because the ECU is in closed loop and controling the afr. Get out and pull the wire off the 02 sensor and now cruise along and the afr's might very well get into the 16-17's. Depends on how the SAFC/whatever is set up. There's no closed loop mode now to hold the afr down in the 14.7 range.
That's just personal experience. Take it for what it's worth. That's certainly how it works on my n/a car. Turbo? A little different, not much.
Then there's other times when the ACV vents the air overboard into the silencer in the fender and in that case,. more or less does not effect the reading of the 02 sensor.
Easiest way to overcome that is to remove the blue elect connector off the Relief solenoid. Then the airpump air goes overboard all the time and does not effect the 02 sensor.
On a normal WORKING RX with a wideband, at idle you'd see something in the 15 plus afr with a hot/warmed up engine. Pull the Blue connector off and the afr will go to the low 13's afr. That's because the airpump air is being dumped overboard.
If a 02 sensor is working right, you can cruise and the afr will not ever get above the mid 15's (I'm being generous, low 15 is closer to norm) afr because the ECU is in closed loop and controling the afr. Get out and pull the wire off the 02 sensor and now cruise along and the afr's might very well get into the 16-17's. Depends on how the SAFC/whatever is set up. There's no closed loop mode now to hold the afr down in the 14.7 range.
That's just personal experience. Take it for what it's worth. That's certainly how it works on my n/a car. Turbo? A little different, not much.
06-19-07, 11:01 PM
#15
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Training manual..............ENGINE......................pa ge 1-7.
For a series four non turbo...........airpump goes to the ACV, leaves the ACV thru the spoked checkvalve b/t the ACV and the manifold, travels to the end of the intake manifold and enters both end side housings thru a somewhat square hole, travels straight down thru the side housings and exits the side housing and now enters the Rotor housing thru a passage at the bottom, then travels into a hole that leads to the exaust inserts and spews fresh air into the exaust coming out of the engine.
It has nothing to do with the two small, approx 1/2inch holes directly below the exaust ports.
In the picture on page 1-7, look to the far right and there is shown a passage shown in *hidden* lines, going to the exaust insert.
On a turbo car the passage from the ACV is different but the air still ends up entering a hole inside the exaust inserts.
Split air pipe plays a role, but in my opinion not the major role. Especially at idle where it plays close to no role.
http://wombat.sevarg.net/RX7/RX-7_Training_Manuals/
Look at the rotor housing on page 1-7. Look at the bottom of the rotor housing. See the triangular hole at the bottom???? That is where the ACV air enters the Rotor housing FROM the end side housings.
For a series four non turbo...........airpump goes to the ACV, leaves the ACV thru the spoked checkvalve b/t the ACV and the manifold, travels to the end of the intake manifold and enters both end side housings thru a somewhat square hole, travels straight down thru the side housings and exits the side housing and now enters the Rotor housing thru a passage at the bottom, then travels into a hole that leads to the exaust inserts and spews fresh air into the exaust coming out of the engine.
It has nothing to do with the two small, approx 1/2inch holes directly below the exaust ports.
In the picture on page 1-7, look to the far right and there is shown a passage shown in *hidden* lines, going to the exaust insert.
On a turbo car the passage from the ACV is different but the air still ends up entering a hole inside the exaust inserts.
Split air pipe plays a role, but in my opinion not the major role. Especially at idle where it plays close to no role.
http://wombat.sevarg.net/RX7/RX-7_Training_Manuals/
Look at the rotor housing on page 1-7. Look at the bottom of the rotor housing. See the triangular hole at the bottom???? That is where the ACV air enters the Rotor housing FROM the end side housings.
Last edited by HAILERS; 06-19-07 at 11:06 PM.
06-20-07, 01:31 AM
#16
Hailers,
Thanks for your explanation of the ACV, I'll be checking that system for proper function tomorrow.
Here's what I found today.
I adjusted the TPS, as it's reading was quite low, because I'd messed with it a few weeks before, thinking it was the idle adjuster screw. I plugged in a voltage meter, and adjusted the TPS screw until it showed at 1.00 volts at idle. It maxes out at 4.76 volts or so. Is that close enough, or is the sensor probably bad?
The old O2 looked very worn, so I just replaced it with a new one. I also found that the old one was completely disconnected.
I set the base idle with the adjustment screw in the center of the throttle body, at around 750rpm.
I changed the spark plugs, and the old ones looked quite white.
After doing all of this, I got the car to enter closed loop when it's supposed to. It now drives along in closed loop, and goes richer once I press the gas to accelerate, so that's progress!
The fly in my soup is that now, past about half throttle, the car misfires intensely, to the point where it will no longer accelerate. At the same time, the wideband reads 10:1, it's richest possible output.
My particular throttle position sensor runs out of travel at around half throttle. That is to say, at half throttle, it's maxed out and is no longer touching the perch on the throttle lever that makes the TPS move. The throttle continues to open, but the TPS is showing max output voltage. Is this normal? It seems to be, as the throttle clearly moves in such an arc that a linear motion, like that of the TPS, can't possibly keep up.
This leads me to guess that the ECU depends on something else after this critical point in the throttle's travel.
Do the secondary injectors fire based on load, RPM, throttle position, or some combination of the three?
After the TPS runs out of travel, what does the computer use to determine how much fuel is needed? Does it only use the AFM, coolant temp sensor, and O2 sensor? What switch/sensor would cause a misfire condition like mine?
At this point, it seems that what little general EFI knowledge I have is of little use, as this problem seems particular to the FC's style of throttle position sensor. I'm a bit stuck, as I'm not sure exactly what other systems are used to determine injector duty cycle, or air fuel, once the TPS reads 100%.
Could the timing advance be working improperly past this critical point? I'm guessing that the advance mechanism on this engine works on vacuum, in which case, is this engine now pulling too much vacuum? Too little? Am I on the right track?
Again, I really appreciate all the help!!
Thanks for your explanation of the ACV, I'll be checking that system for proper function tomorrow.
Here's what I found today.
I adjusted the TPS, as it's reading was quite low, because I'd messed with it a few weeks before, thinking it was the idle adjuster screw. I plugged in a voltage meter, and adjusted the TPS screw until it showed at 1.00 volts at idle. It maxes out at 4.76 volts or so. Is that close enough, or is the sensor probably bad?
The old O2 looked very worn, so I just replaced it with a new one. I also found that the old one was completely disconnected.
I set the base idle with the adjustment screw in the center of the throttle body, at around 750rpm.
I changed the spark plugs, and the old ones looked quite white.
After doing all of this, I got the car to enter closed loop when it's supposed to. It now drives along in closed loop, and goes richer once I press the gas to accelerate, so that's progress!
The fly in my soup is that now, past about half throttle, the car misfires intensely, to the point where it will no longer accelerate. At the same time, the wideband reads 10:1, it's richest possible output.
My particular throttle position sensor runs out of travel at around half throttle. That is to say, at half throttle, it's maxed out and is no longer touching the perch on the throttle lever that makes the TPS move. The throttle continues to open, but the TPS is showing max output voltage. Is this normal? It seems to be, as the throttle clearly moves in such an arc that a linear motion, like that of the TPS, can't possibly keep up.
This leads me to guess that the ECU depends on something else after this critical point in the throttle's travel.
Do the secondary injectors fire based on load, RPM, throttle position, or some combination of the three?
After the TPS runs out of travel, what does the computer use to determine how much fuel is needed? Does it only use the AFM, coolant temp sensor, and O2 sensor? What switch/sensor would cause a misfire condition like mine?
At this point, it seems that what little general EFI knowledge I have is of little use, as this problem seems particular to the FC's style of throttle position sensor. I'm a bit stuck, as I'm not sure exactly what other systems are used to determine injector duty cycle, or air fuel, once the TPS reads 100%.
Could the timing advance be working improperly past this critical point? I'm guessing that the advance mechanism on this engine works on vacuum, in which case, is this engine now pulling too much vacuum? Too little? Am I on the right track?
Again, I really appreciate all the help!!
06-20-07, 07:38 AM
#17
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the S4 cars only had a narrow range TPS. meaning that it doesn't give you an indication of the full throttle movement, only whether you are at low throttle or not.
it sounds like you are going super rich for whatever reason, so much so that you are getting ignition misfire possibly.
sometimes this happens because the ECU sees a signal from a sensor as an error, causing it to go into some sort of fail safe mode that dumps too much fuel.
you could maybe try this: http://howto.globalvicinity.com/gv_w...i=39&co=1&vi=1
it sounds like you are going super rich for whatever reason, so much so that you are getting ignition misfire possibly.
sometimes this happens because the ECU sees a signal from a sensor as an error, causing it to go into some sort of fail safe mode that dumps too much fuel.
you could maybe try this: http://howto.globalvicinity.com/gv_w...i=39&co=1&vi=1
06-20-07, 09:08 AM
#18
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The afm controls fuel delivery.
10 afr sucks and will cause your bogging.
Full range tps on a series five is for the OMP only.
Series four tps are at full 100* after the throttle linkage has moved approx 18* of it's travel (read that in the series four FSM, can't find that 18* at the moment. It's there).
The 4.76 vdc at full open of the tps has zippity to do with your problem and is no problem anyway.
Since the car ran good at one time I assume the injectors are the right ones, the afm is the right one and the boost/pressure sensor is the right one. Sooooooo, I'm going to go off the deep end and suggest something that can't hurt.
Go to the ECU. Pull the middle and small plugs off. Look for the pure black wires on the small plug. They are in pins 3A and 3G in the small plug and pin 2R in the middle plug. Follow the wires from 3A and 3G up the harness about six inches (harness cover needs peeling back a bit). There you will find those wires all spliced together. I'm suggesting splicing a NEW wire to those wires. Solder all of them together at the spliced area. The new wire will have ring terminal on it's other end that will attach to a nut on the bracket that holds the ECU in place.
10 afr sucks and will cause your bogging.
Full range tps on a series five is for the OMP only.
Series four tps are at full 100* after the throttle linkage has moved approx 18* of it's travel (read that in the series four FSM, can't find that 18* at the moment. It's there).
The 4.76 vdc at full open of the tps has zippity to do with your problem and is no problem anyway.
Since the car ran good at one time I assume the injectors are the right ones, the afm is the right one and the boost/pressure sensor is the right one. Sooooooo, I'm going to go off the deep end and suggest something that can't hurt.
Go to the ECU. Pull the middle and small plugs off. Look for the pure black wires on the small plug. They are in pins 3A and 3G in the small plug and pin 2R in the middle plug. Follow the wires from 3A and 3G up the harness about six inches (harness cover needs peeling back a bit). There you will find those wires all spliced together. I'm suggesting splicing a NEW wire to those wires. Solder all of them together at the spliced area. The new wire will have ring terminal on it's other end that will attach to a nut on the bracket that holds the ECU in place.
06-20-07, 09:14 AM
#19
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Also read HENRIK here: http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=39785
If you replaced the vacuum line on the boost/pressure sensor consider if the orifice is still in that line. That's the pill talked about in that thead.
Read a little HENRIK here: http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=20701&page=2 Try to ignore most of the other folk on the threads unless it's the KIWI with the convertible. I'm suggesting this because HENRIK is the fellow who developed the RTEK2.0 and KNOWS what the afm does.
Do a search for HENRIK on that fourm and this forum and find a thread or two where he talks about fuel delivery and AFM.
If you replaced the vacuum line on the boost/pressure sensor consider if the orifice is still in that line. That's the pill talked about in that thead.
Read a little HENRIK here: http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread.php?t=20701&page=2 Try to ignore most of the other folk on the threads unless it's the KIWI with the convertible. I'm suggesting this because HENRIK is the fellow who developed the RTEK2.0 and KNOWS what the afm does.
Do a search for HENRIK on that fourm and this forum and find a thread or two where he talks about fuel delivery and AFM.
Last edited by HAILERS; 06-20-07 at 09:22 AM.
06-20-07, 09:45 AM
#20
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Also HENRIK here: http://forum.teamfc3s.org/showthread...&highlight=AFM
Just trying to point out to you the AFM controls fuel delivery, soooooooo, since you have rich afr, it seems to follow it might be a afm problem OR a bad signall from the afm to the ECU??
And about the orifice/pill. I learned quickly about it one day. I replaced a few vacuum lines on my n/a. Went for a drive and everytime I applied heavy throttle the car bucked .. Went back and put the old vacuum lines on and all was well. Then looked carefully at the boost line because it had some colored markings on it. Hmmmm. What's that inside??? OH. a little oval piece of plastic with a tiny hole in it's middle. Called a ORIFICE and the part number is in the parts fische.
sOOOOOOO? Changed vac lines on the boost sensor recently?
Just trying to point out to you the AFM controls fuel delivery, soooooooo, since you have rich afr, it seems to follow it might be a afm problem OR a bad signall from the afm to the ECU??
And about the orifice/pill. I learned quickly about it one day. I replaced a few vacuum lines on my n/a. Went for a drive and everytime I applied heavy throttle the car bucked .. Went back and put the old vacuum lines on and all was well. Then looked carefully at the boost line because it had some colored markings on it. Hmmmm. What's that inside??? OH. a little oval piece of plastic with a tiny hole in it's middle. Called a ORIFICE and the part number is in the parts fische.
sOOOOOOO? Changed vac lines on the boost sensor recently?
06-20-07, 09:52 AM
#21
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Also HENRIK here: https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...air+flow+meter
BUT also read what NZCONVERTIBLE said about the MAP sensor (boost/pressure sensor) and rapid throttle movements (this is one reason I mention the orifice in the above post).
BUT also read what NZCONVERTIBLE said about the MAP sensor (boost/pressure sensor) and rapid throttle movements (this is one reason I mention the orifice in the above post).
06-20-07, 10:08 AM
#22
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Those threads above bring up a point not mentioned very much at all on this fourm for series four cars. The ATP. Atmospheric Pressue Sensor.
Located in the right foot well, up high and to the right and hard to find even if you know where it is.
I can take the output off that ATP sensor and alter the fuel mixture by putting a pot on the output signal to the ECU and varying its voltage to the ECU. Mostly only in the lean direction. For richer just pulling it's plug off gets you sealevel which is as rich as it'll get.
So, you could check and make sure it's plug is on, although it probably is since you wouldn't forget this plug if you ever removed it. Or check it's signal at the ECU using a digital meter. OUtput is in the FSM, FUEL section. Pin 2H, green/yellow wire.
Just throwing a lot of stuff up against the wall today hoping some will stick. Bye. Got a boat to build. Times a wasting.
Located in the right foot well, up high and to the right and hard to find even if you know where it is.
I can take the output off that ATP sensor and alter the fuel mixture by putting a pot on the output signal to the ECU and varying its voltage to the ECU. Mostly only in the lean direction. For richer just pulling it's plug off gets you sealevel which is as rich as it'll get.
So, you could check and make sure it's plug is on, although it probably is since you wouldn't forget this plug if you ever removed it. Or check it's signal at the ECU using a digital meter. OUtput is in the FSM, FUEL section. Pin 2H, green/yellow wire.
Just throwing a lot of stuff up against the wall today hoping some will stick. Bye. Got a boat to build. Times a wasting.
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