575rwhp and fully streetable?
01-14-10, 07:22 PM
#26
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: VA Beach
Posts: 797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some numbers and graphs
Lets look at the two cars you talked about
Nissan GT-R
475hp 3.8L Twin Turbo AWD V6 making 400+ ft/lbs at 3200rpm
Curb Weight - 3,800 lbs
Tires P255/40YR20 Front | P285/35YR20 Rear
2010 Chevy Corvette
638hp 6.2L Intercooled Supercharged V8 which makes 600+ ft/lbs of torque at 3800rpm
Curb Weight - 3,333 lbs
Tires P285/30ZR19 Front | P335/25ZR20 Rear (12 inch wide)
These cars are vastly different beasts from a 500hp 1.3L turbo rotary in a car weighing between 2600 and 3000 lbs. They both have advanced traction control systems and huge tires to let you put that power to the ground. Lets see how many big hp rotaries are equipped the same. Also show me a turbo rotary making that much torque at such low revs. On the flip side both of the above cars are $80k+ and new.
Now here is some dyno graphs from the 500hp+ club thread
First a 2 rotor GT40 Ball Bearing on race gas
Now a 3 rotor GT42 on 93 octane (pats car, sorry I couldn't find a more recent graph if you had one)
Now a 2009 Vette ZR1 (yes I know the graph doesn't show rpm but you get the idea)
Which would you want to drive? Don't get me wrong I love the rotary for it's simplicity and sweet sweet noise but I don't want to daily drive a 500hp turbo rotary. Now if you had a 350hp well tuned fast spooling turbo rotary I'd drive it everyday without hesitation. More power is not necessarily better especially in the hands of a non-professional driver
To J-Rat. I envy the fact that you can drive your 500hp+ rotary on the street. I am certain that driving a 400hp or 500hp monster 2 rotor on the street would be fun for a few days but it will get old quick putting around at 70mph not using 1/10th of the cars potential and it is going to attract way to much unwanted attention. Be it police or other unsavory characters.
And to the people who are gonna quote this post and say something witty or call me an idiot go right ahead. I don't have a huge hp rotary and actually prefer to drive the much slower more sedate GXL in my signature. It's just my opinion and that's it.
01-14-10, 10:21 PM
#29
To J-Rat. I envy the fact that you can drive your 500hp+ rotary on the street. I am certain that driving a 400hp or 500hp monster 2 rotor on the street would be fun for a few days but it will get old quick putting around at 70mph not using 1/10th of the cars potential and it is going to attract way to much unwanted attention. Be it police or other unsavory characters.
Your problem is your idea of what gets a 2-rotor into the 500s is off base.... If I started my car right now I wouldn't even wake up the neighbors.
*edit*
Couldnt help noticing you are running a BNR turbo. Cant tell me that isnt laggy or anything....
01-14-10, 10:33 PM
#31
I have almost the exact same setup as J-rat except I don't run methanol or 2 step. Same turbo along with a divided manifold, just pump gas and a little over 16psi. You do miss having torque under 3 grand or so but the actual powerband isn't a big deal. It's just like an s2000 or an Rx-8, or my old 172rwhp GTU.
Also, that powerband you guys are complaining about is common on almost any engine with a largish turbo. Turbo cars with flat powerbands often have very small twins, like the 3000GT Vr-4 or the Taurus SHO. And they run out of breath out top. So what do you expect?
Also, that powerband you guys are complaining about is common on almost any engine with a largish turbo. Turbo cars with flat powerbands often have very small twins, like the 3000GT Vr-4 or the Taurus SHO. And they run out of breath out top. So what do you expect?
01-14-10, 10:39 PM
#32
Yes its slow
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: usa
Posts: 2,455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think J-rat hit the nail on the head. Most people have not owned such a vehicle. Yet alone driven one on a daily basis.
I used to drive mine to work, grocery store, mall, restaurants etc.
EDIT: used to because I bought a lexus.
I used to drive mine to work, grocery store, mall, restaurants etc.
EDIT: used to because I bought a lexus.
01-15-10, 03:25 AM
#34
i don't get why people think that with 500+ RWHP that you have to use it full time. the engine runs normally when out of boost with the cost of a little low end power. even once the turbo is spinning and at atmospheric pressure the car feels more alive than even a stock built car.
if you don't drive around with your foot buried in the pedal then you wouldn't even notice it.
if the difference you are trying to point out is the power curve then you could also try assuming the displacement differences between our cars and those listed. i would love to see the power curve of a built and supercharged 4 rotor which would be a little more on par with those listed. we all know it's unfair to call ours a 1.3L but a 2.6L is more in line with what it is and it still is ONLY a 2.6L engine putting down those numbers. so wah if it doesn't put out 400torque at 3500 RPMs... that is the complete opposite of the point i figured you were trying to prove, it makes a car even less for the casual driver and more for a professional, not your casual grocery runner.
you also failed to mention that our much smaller engines have more RPM potential to squeeze out more power between shifts, i'd like to see what happens to a supercharged vette if it could come close to pushing out 10k RPMs.
if you don't drive around with your foot buried in the pedal then you wouldn't even notice it.
if the difference you are trying to point out is the power curve then you could also try assuming the displacement differences between our cars and those listed. i would love to see the power curve of a built and supercharged 4 rotor which would be a little more on par with those listed. we all know it's unfair to call ours a 1.3L but a 2.6L is more in line with what it is and it still is ONLY a 2.6L engine putting down those numbers. so wah if it doesn't put out 400torque at 3500 RPMs... that is the complete opposite of the point i figured you were trying to prove, it makes a car even less for the casual driver and more for a professional, not your casual grocery runner.
you also failed to mention that our much smaller engines have more RPM potential to squeeze out more power between shifts, i'd like to see what happens to a supercharged vette if it could come close to pushing out 10k RPMs.
01-15-10, 06:00 AM
#35
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: VA Beach
Posts: 797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What part of my car would attract cops? It looks like a stock FC with a CF hood. It SOUNDS like a stock FC. I dont have HUGE ports or a HUGE turbo.
Your problem is your idea of what gets a 2-rotor into the 500s is off base.... If I started my car right now I wouldn't even wake up the neighbors.
*edit*
Couldnt help noticing you are running a BNR turbo. Cant tell me that isnt laggy or anything....
Your problem is your idea of what gets a 2-rotor into the 500s is off base.... If I started my car right now I wouldn't even wake up the neighbors.
*edit*
Couldnt help noticing you are running a BNR turbo. Cant tell me that isnt laggy or anything....
Thats nice you don't wake up the neighbors at 9pm.
On the BNR I'm not saying it isn't laggy or it doesn't suck. If I had to do it again I would save my pennies and gone for an A-Spec GT35R kit. However for people with a limited budget it works.
I really do like your car and respect your build and knowledge. Like I said in my above post. I don't have a big HP rotary so I am just going on what I've seen first hand and read on these forums
To Karack the vette makes that power at 6500rpm. The two graphs for the rotary cars has them at 8000rpm and 6700rpm. Yes staying out of the throttle makesa difference but if you compare the same 3 graphs at 25% throttle the vette is going to be making way more torque down low which will allow the driver to stay out of the throttle versus the rotary owner pushing down the throttle more to get the same level of thrust.
01-15-10, 07:35 AM
#37
Last I checked your car made 554hp on Q16. Not everybody can cruise down to their local racetrack every time they need to fill up. Maybe the cops are much more lenient down there. Around here though you are asking for trouble with a cf hood and chrome exhaust tips.
Thats nice you don't wake up the neighbors at 9pm.
On the BNR I'm not saying it isn't laggy or it doesn't suck. If I had to do it again I would save my pennies and gone for an A-Spec GT35R kit. However for people with a limited budget it works.
I really do like your car and respect your build and knowledge. Like I said in my above post. I don't have a big HP rotary so I am just going on what I've seen first hand and read on these forums
Thats nice you don't wake up the neighbors at 9pm.
On the BNR I'm not saying it isn't laggy or it doesn't suck. If I had to do it again I would save my pennies and gone for an A-Spec GT35R kit. However for people with a limited budget it works.
I really do like your car and respect your build and knowledge. Like I said in my above post. I don't have a big HP rotary so I am just going on what I've seen first hand and read on these forums
Tis true about Q-16 but my low boost number (91 octane) was 496. Q-16 didnt give me that much of a hand it was more for safety. Its also true that I am converting to E-85 and there are plenty of gas stations in the area that I can tank up at. In additon, if I started the car at 11, or 1 AM I still wouldn't wake the neighbors. Trust me the car is quiet.
Not trying to start a huge flame war here I am just pointing out the fact that your first post was incorrect. Thats coming from someone that owns a 500+ hp car and can be backed up by others with cars in the same if not more HP range.
The question is, is 575 streetable? Yes, it certainly is.
01-15-10, 08:33 AM
#38
Last I checked your car made 554hp on Q16. Not everybody can cruise down to their local racetrack every time they need to fill up. Maybe the cops are much more lenient down there. Around here though you are asking for trouble with a cf hood and chrome exhaust tips.
Thats nice you don't wake up the neighbors at 9pm.
On the BNR I'm not saying it isn't laggy or it doesn't suck. If I had to do it again I would save my pennies and gone for an A-Spec GT35R kit. However for people with a limited budget it works.
I really do like your car and respect your build and knowledge. Like I said in my above post. I don't have a big HP rotary so I am just going on what I've seen first hand and read on these forums
To Karack the vette makes that power at 6500rpm. The two graphs for the rotary cars has them at 8000rpm and 6700rpm. Yes staying out of the throttle makesa difference but if you compare the same 3 graphs at 25% throttle the vette is going to be making way more torque down low which will allow the driver to stay out of the throttle versus the rotary owner pushing down the throttle more to get the same level of thrust.
Thats nice you don't wake up the neighbors at 9pm.
On the BNR I'm not saying it isn't laggy or it doesn't suck. If I had to do it again I would save my pennies and gone for an A-Spec GT35R kit. However for people with a limited budget it works.
I really do like your car and respect your build and knowledge. Like I said in my above post. I don't have a big HP rotary so I am just going on what I've seen first hand and read on these forums
To Karack the vette makes that power at 6500rpm. The two graphs for the rotary cars has them at 8000rpm and 6700rpm. Yes staying out of the throttle makesa difference but if you compare the same 3 graphs at 25% throttle the vette is going to be making way more torque down low which will allow the driver to stay out of the throttle versus the rotary owner pushing down the throttle more to get the same level of thrust.
It's a matter of preference. If daily driving a 500hp car is going to be done, it's the easiest with a turbo rotary simply because the power sleeps higher in the rpm range.
01-15-10, 10:38 AM
#39
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: VA Beach
Posts: 797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm pretty sure posting the dynos of the cars just proved you wrong and everyone else right. Having 250lb/ft of torque below 5k rpms is better than having 400 for city driving. Those graphs show that if you keep your foot out of the throttle the rotary drives like a regular car. It doesn't make sense to say that you wouldn't like driving a rotary around while only using a tenth of the power, and then you turn around and post a dyno of a car that shows its power curves maxing out at 150mph.
It's a matter of preference. If daily driving a 500hp car is going to be done, it's the easiest with a turbo rotary simply because the power sleeps higher in the rpm range.
It's a matter of preference. If daily driving a 500hp car is going to be done, it's the easiest with a turbo rotary simply because the power sleeps higher in the rpm range.
A dyno graph shows the power at WOT. If the rotary is making 175lb/ft at 3k at wot what is it making at 25% throttle? If you assume a linear scale of throttle angle to torque output (I am almost 100% sure this is wrong) it works out to about 44 lb/ft or 24hp. Trying to accelerate a car with 24hp is going to be a whole lot of no fun. Granted there is more to it than that but you get the idea. I'm not saying it can't be done but it doesn't sound like fun to me
This is where the big displacement engines rule. They produce more torque down low and in turn make more torque with less throttle. This improves driveability and streetability.
Here is another thread that goes into a lot more discussion regarding power under the curve and torque. Some good posts are on page 6
http://www.v6performance.net/forums/....php?p=1501916
01-15-10, 11:03 AM
#40
i'm done. why? because you're a dumbshit and have ignored everyone's posts completely to justify your own ideas of how a high HP rotary car would feel (which you still admittedly haven't driven yet). they drive just like a stock car except when you do bury your foot they show you in kind.
so please shut the **** up, if not for your own sake then do it to free up space on this board and to save some of us some brain cells in trying to explain some simple things to you that you won't get or moreso you will ignore.
so please shut the **** up, if not for your own sake then do it to free up space on this board and to save some of us some brain cells in trying to explain some simple things to you that you won't get or moreso you will ignore.
01-15-10, 11:32 AM
#41
Over 90% of the time you are driving you are going to be under 4000 rpm and less than 25% throttle unless you are at a track or really love to speed on public highways.
A dyno graph shows the power at WOT. If the rotary is making 175lb/ft at 3k at wot what is it making at 25% throttle? If you assume a linear scale of throttle angle to torque output (I am almost 100% sure this is wrong) it works out to about 44 lb/ft or 24hp. Trying to accelerate a car with 24hp is going to be a whole lot of no fun. Granted there is more to it than that but you get the idea. I'm not saying it can't be done but it doesn't sound like fun to me
This is where the big displacement engines rule. They produce more torque down low and in turn make more torque with less throttle. This improves driveability and streetability.
Here is another thread that goes into a lot more discussion regarding power under the curve and torque. Some good posts are on page 6
http://www.v6performance.net/forums/....php?p=1501916
A dyno graph shows the power at WOT. If the rotary is making 175lb/ft at 3k at wot what is it making at 25% throttle? If you assume a linear scale of throttle angle to torque output (I am almost 100% sure this is wrong) it works out to about 44 lb/ft or 24hp. Trying to accelerate a car with 24hp is going to be a whole lot of no fun. Granted there is more to it than that but you get the idea. I'm not saying it can't be done but it doesn't sound like fun to me
This is where the big displacement engines rule. They produce more torque down low and in turn make more torque with less throttle. This improves driveability and streetability.
Here is another thread that goes into a lot more discussion regarding power under the curve and torque. Some good posts are on page 6
http://www.v6performance.net/forums/....php?p=1501916
Then you go on and on spewing senseless garbage about fun? That's a whole new thread. Now let's argue if an ls9 or a 13b is more fun to drive...
Again, why are you arguing for "more torque down low" and "more torque with less throttle"? You have based your entire argument on the assumption that more power in the daily driven rpm range is bad. Now you're saying a supercharged v8 car with most of its power below 5k rpm is better?
01-15-10, 01:08 PM
#42
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: VA Beach
Posts: 797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are really this retarded, or are you just hard headed? The dyno graphs are based on engine RPM. Of course they want to get to the powerband faster so they apply WOT. Look at the bottom of the graph. The power is the same at that rpm range regardless of throttle position.
Then you go on and on spewing senseless garbage about fun? That's a whole new thread. Now let's argue if an ls9 or a 13b is more fun to drive...
Again, why are you arguing for "more torque down low" and "more torque with less throttle"? You have based your entire argument on the assumption that more power in the daily driven rpm range is bad. Now you're saying a supercharged v8 car with most of its power below 5k rpm is better?
Then you go on and on spewing senseless garbage about fun? That's a whole new thread. Now let's argue if an ls9 or a 13b is more fun to drive...
Again, why are you arguing for "more torque down low" and "more torque with less throttle"? You have based your entire argument on the assumption that more power in the daily driven rpm range is bad. Now you're saying a supercharged v8 car with most of its power below 5k rpm is better?
01-15-10, 02:18 PM
#45
here's the thing people are forgetting. the gearing on the FC (especially the s4 T2) is pretty short. With a bigger turbo like that you end up taching it up to about 5k all the time, not even trying to get on it much. You just put the pedal down a little bit (1/4 of the way is all it takes) wait about a second and then you're at 5 or 6 k.
01-15-10, 02:22 PM
#46
i shift from 1st to 4th, normally cruise through town at 1500-2500 rpm when going to work or whatever. It amuses me because at 2000 rpm my car is still faster than most of the cars around me. It is way easy to drive the car around town, you barely have to touch the throttle.
01-16-10, 02:32 AM
#47
The Doctor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 1,185
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i shift from 1st to 4th, normally cruise through town at 1500-2500 rpm when going to work or whatever. It amuses me because at 2000 rpm my car is still faster than most of the cars around me. It is way easy to drive the car around town, you barely have to touch the throttle.
01-16-10, 12:21 PM
#49
Not so sure why everyone is hating on Solaren so much...he's the only one that backed up his statement with graphs, links, and facts. What he says makes complete sense and is a little biased towards piston motors...which is why I think some of you are freaking out about it.
I rode in a supercharged trans am that could practically blow the tires off just slightly above idle...show me any 13B that can do that with 255 tires and I would be amazed!
But this conversation is about streetability... so here's the situation, you're making a left turn across traffic and misjudge the distance and speed a car is approaching so you need to accelerate quickly so you hit the accelerator... If we're talking streetability which setup is more likely to make it out before getting smashed a 500hp all motor vette or boosted 500hp 13b. Show me any engine that can spool a decent sized turbo in a fraction of a second please.
J-Rat and Karack you may be a handful of 500+hp rx7's that can drive your cars everyday and not worry about popping your motor...running out of gas...or running from the cops. I literally plan ahead for all of the above when I drive my rx7 and it's only around the 300hp range, lol.
I'm not taking sides here, this subject of 'streetability' is really only personal preference anyway, I would love to drive a 500+hp rx7 daily!!....If I owned an oil company
I rode in a supercharged trans am that could practically blow the tires off just slightly above idle...show me any 13B that can do that with 255 tires and I would be amazed!
But this conversation is about streetability... so here's the situation, you're making a left turn across traffic and misjudge the distance and speed a car is approaching so you need to accelerate quickly so you hit the accelerator... If we're talking streetability which setup is more likely to make it out before getting smashed a 500hp all motor vette or boosted 500hp 13b. Show me any engine that can spool a decent sized turbo in a fraction of a second please.
J-Rat and Karack you may be a handful of 500+hp rx7's that can drive your cars everyday and not worry about popping your motor...running out of gas...or running from the cops. I literally plan ahead for all of the above when I drive my rx7 and it's only around the 300hp range, lol.
I'm not taking sides here, this subject of 'streetability' is really only personal preference anyway, I would love to drive a 500+hp rx7 daily!!....If I owned an oil company
01-16-10, 01:14 PM
#50
Engine, Not Motor
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: London, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 29,789
Likes: 0
Received 108 Likes
on
91 Posts
This topic is a bit weird and I have wanted to stay out of it for this reason.
But after rereading the rest of the posts in this thread, and the post above this one, I want to comment.
But my comment is backwards. My daily driver is a Honda Insight. I consider almost all other cars unstreetable because they get horrible mileage, aren't as reliable, aren't challenging and fun to drive, and are boring boxes without any real innovation. How could someone ever drive a car like that? It's unstreetable! Not getting 65-75 MPG in the city and 90+ MPG on the highway is unthinkable. It's totally impractical and a waste of money to be driving a car around that only gets 25-35 MPG. Having an engine idling when the car isn't moving? What kind of insane system is that?! The engine should stop if it is not driving the car. Steel chassis that rust out after 10 years? That is unstreetable and a waste of money to purchase. Not having the full torque of an electric motor ready at any RPM, gear and speed must be weird and I can't imagine people driving cars that don't.
Then again, maybe I am a bit strange. After all, when I am not driving my Honda, I drive my 500HP RX-7 (I split my driving between those two cars when there isn't snow on the ground). I drive it like any other car. I put fuel into it (regular 91 octane) and drive it to work, to buy groceries, on some Friday nights to the drag strip, on the highway for hundreds of KM at a time and for things which cars are designed. I can't recall ever noticing a lack of low end torque, nor do I plan for running out of fuel, popping an engine, running from the police (huh?!) or being in the middle of an intersection in the wrong gear. Hell, my car is bridgeported which is supposed to make cars loud, rough, undrivable and have no low end torque. Yet I cruise around at 2000 RPM in 4th gear and my exhaust is less noisy then the riced Civic beside me, or the Harley that just went by, or the Mustang down the street. I wouldn't say that I would start the car at 2AM in my driveway as a habit, but the times that I have done so, no one has complained. The only thing, and I mean the only thing, that makes the car "impractical" to drive is the horrid fuel economy.
Yeah, the car won't blow the tires off from idle, but why am I wanting to do that? The beauty of a high HP low displacement engine is that it has two personalities. The sedate one at low throttle and low RPM that makes the car like any other in daily driving, and the monster that is unleashed at about 4000 RPM at high throttles that turns the car sideways in 4th gear on the highway.
But after rereading the rest of the posts in this thread, and the post above this one, I want to comment.
But my comment is backwards. My daily driver is a Honda Insight. I consider almost all other cars unstreetable because they get horrible mileage, aren't as reliable, aren't challenging and fun to drive, and are boring boxes without any real innovation. How could someone ever drive a car like that? It's unstreetable! Not getting 65-75 MPG in the city and 90+ MPG on the highway is unthinkable. It's totally impractical and a waste of money to be driving a car around that only gets 25-35 MPG. Having an engine idling when the car isn't moving? What kind of insane system is that?! The engine should stop if it is not driving the car. Steel chassis that rust out after 10 years? That is unstreetable and a waste of money to purchase. Not having the full torque of an electric motor ready at any RPM, gear and speed must be weird and I can't imagine people driving cars that don't.
Then again, maybe I am a bit strange. After all, when I am not driving my Honda, I drive my 500HP RX-7 (I split my driving between those two cars when there isn't snow on the ground). I drive it like any other car. I put fuel into it (regular 91 octane) and drive it to work, to buy groceries, on some Friday nights to the drag strip, on the highway for hundreds of KM at a time and for things which cars are designed. I can't recall ever noticing a lack of low end torque, nor do I plan for running out of fuel, popping an engine, running from the police (huh?!) or being in the middle of an intersection in the wrong gear. Hell, my car is bridgeported which is supposed to make cars loud, rough, undrivable and have no low end torque. Yet I cruise around at 2000 RPM in 4th gear and my exhaust is less noisy then the riced Civic beside me, or the Harley that just went by, or the Mustang down the street. I wouldn't say that I would start the car at 2AM in my driveway as a habit, but the times that I have done so, no one has complained. The only thing, and I mean the only thing, that makes the car "impractical" to drive is the horrid fuel economy.
Yeah, the car won't blow the tires off from idle, but why am I wanting to do that? The beauty of a high HP low displacement engine is that it has two personalities. The sedate one at low throttle and low RPM that makes the car like any other in daily driving, and the monster that is unleashed at about 4000 RPM at high throttles that turns the car sideways in 4th gear on the highway.