2nd Gear grind in 87 Turbo II
06-24-03, 12:23 AM
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2nd Gear grind in 87 Turbo II
I test drove the same 87 Turbo II I asked about earlier, and noticed it had a bit of a grind from the 1st to 2nd gear shift.
It wasnt as bad upshifting, as it was downshifting from 3rd to 2nd.
How much would it cost to get this synchro repaired? Or would the entire tranny need to be replaced?
It wasnt as bad upshifting, as it was downshifting from 3rd to 2nd.
How much would it cost to get this synchro repaired? Or would the entire tranny need to be replaced?
06-24-03, 12:26 AM
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well.... if you dont got around 400 to get a used tranny or for it to get rebuilt... alot of guys have had alot of success with using GM SYNCOMESH...... the 9$/QT stuff works wonders man!
06-24-03, 12:34 AM
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Oh, is that some kind of tranny fluid that will help it shift a little more softly??
The rest of the tranny felt great, its just that 2nd gear really started to bother me.
The rest of the tranny felt great, its just that 2nd gear really started to bother me.
06-24-03, 12:38 AM
#4
FC Mobsta
$400 for a used tranny?? Maybe after shipping. I payed $250 for mine, S5 TII trans...haven't tried it out yet. But according who I got it from 
, its a j-spec. I'm assuming low miles too...hoping...
, its a j-spec. I'm assuming low miles too...hoping...
06-24-03, 01:13 AM
#6
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i use to have a small grind downshifting from 3rd -2nd also. just changed the tranny fluid and after about a week it went away. never had it again.
-Markus
"if you can't find it, grind it!"
-Markus
"if you can't find it, grind it!"
06-24-03, 02:25 AM
#7
FC Mobsta
Originally posted by Davidov
$250? That's all? Man that is pretty good, well at the end of this summer I could afford that.
What's the difference in the S4 and the S5 TII trannies?
$250? That's all? Man that is pretty good, well at the end of this summer I could afford that.
What's the difference in the S4 and the S5 TII trannies?
-Marc
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06-24-03, 10:33 AM
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I can't say enough about Redline tranny fluid. I had the 1st to 2nd gear grind at about 75,000 miles. Change to Redline and at 113,000 miles and the grind has never come back.
06-24-03, 10:56 AM
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youre Synchros are giong out. you need to put in a half and half mix of Redline MTL and Lucas Gear oil..
i use it on my DSM and it all but cured my 2nd gear grind... till the synchros evaporated into thin air and 2nd gear was 99% inaccesible, even w/ revmatching and double clutching.
our new tranny is built w/ double synchros in 2nd and third and run the half and half mix of Redline MT90 and Lucas gear oil... oh baby thats nice stuff. its got a VERY notchy and noticble click in every gear.
btw, i thought that the S4 T2 case was better cuz it has deeper ribs or something... all ii remember is that one version has better bracing and is referred to as the "rib case"
i use it on my DSM and it all but cured my 2nd gear grind... till the synchros evaporated into thin air and 2nd gear was 99% inaccesible, even w/ revmatching and double clutching.
our new tranny is built w/ double synchros in 2nd and third and run the half and half mix of Redline MT90 and Lucas gear oil... oh baby thats nice stuff. its got a VERY notchy and noticble click in every gear.
btw, i thought that the S4 T2 case was better cuz it has deeper ribs or something... all ii remember is that one version has better bracing and is referred to as the "rib case"
06-24-03, 12:50 PM
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Ok so Redline MTF is the **** huh?
What viscosity should I use? I live in Texas and its in the 90's for about 80% of the year
Maybe something a little heavier to protect the synchros?
Thanks for all the help!
What viscosity should I use? I live in Texas and its in the 90's for about 80% of the year
Maybe something a little heavier to protect the synchros?
Thanks for all the help!
06-24-03, 01:16 PM
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Redline makes two types of gear lube
Redline MTL
Redline MT90
the MT90 is, generally speaking, a "regular" gear oil substitut... so instead of Castrol 80w-90, youd use MT90.
now the MTL is a friction modifyer, kind of like an additive. What its deal is, there isnt as much sulfer (if any) when compared to otther popular gear lubes, which actually corrodes the bronze that composes the synchronizers over time. and the additives in the MTL actually help the Synchros "grip" if you will, a little better so that they help speed the gears up when you shift and there isnt "gear clashing" when you shift.
the MTL will help make shifting a bit easier if youre synchros are already acting up and you have hard shifting and even a grind when shifting cuz it helps the sychros work better... MT90 in comparison, is just gear lube.... really good gear lube.
Royal purple makes good stuff... but i think redline is my old Standby... besides, an acquaintance of mine uses a half-and-half mix of Redline MT90 and Lucas Gear oil in his race trannies... His name is John Shepherd, you may remember him from such sanctioned racing bodies as IDRC and NHRA in which he has won numerous events and also the IDRC street class of 2001 and 2002.
anyhow, John recommended that i use Redline/Lucas blend the tranny he built for me
you could check out his site @ www.shepracing.com if you are a big fan of Ari yallon and his RX7, you will recognize John or his car... cuz they were pretty deep into the competition.
Redline MTL
Redline MT90
the MT90 is, generally speaking, a "regular" gear oil substitut... so instead of Castrol 80w-90, youd use MT90.
now the MTL is a friction modifyer, kind of like an additive. What its deal is, there isnt as much sulfer (if any) when compared to otther popular gear lubes, which actually corrodes the bronze that composes the synchronizers over time. and the additives in the MTL actually help the Synchros "grip" if you will, a little better so that they help speed the gears up when you shift and there isnt "gear clashing" when you shift.
the MTL will help make shifting a bit easier if youre synchros are already acting up and you have hard shifting and even a grind when shifting cuz it helps the sychros work better... MT90 in comparison, is just gear lube.... really good gear lube.
Royal purple makes good stuff... but i think redline is my old Standby... besides, an acquaintance of mine uses a half-and-half mix of Redline MT90 and Lucas Gear oil in his race trannies... His name is John Shepherd, you may remember him from such sanctioned racing bodies as IDRC and NHRA in which he has won numerous events and also the IDRC street class of 2001 and 2002.
anyhow, John recommended that i use Redline/Lucas blend the tranny he built for me
you could check out his site @ www.shepracing.com if you are a big fan of Ari yallon and his RX7, you will recognize John or his car... cuz they were pretty deep into the competition.
06-24-03, 01:34 PM
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I'm getting my clutch replaced in a few weeks and if I get the rebuild when I do that it's only about $500.00 more than just changing the clutch.. just something to think about if you need to go that route.
06-24-03, 06:55 PM
#16
Admitted 'rexaholic'
I've used GM syncromesh in my last 2 sevens. The stuff really works, and you can get it at any GM dealer. It's not an additive, just manual tranny fluid.
You might also contact Kevin Landers, I know for sure he has a few used trannys. Good prices, too.
www.rotaryresurrection.com.
Good Luck!
You might also contact Kevin Landers, I know for sure he has a few used trannys. Good prices, too.
www.rotaryresurrection.com.
Good Luck!
06-24-03, 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by $150FC
What about actually replacing the second gear synchro? Has anybody done that/is it hard to do?
What about actually replacing the second gear synchro? Has anybody done that/is it hard to do?
Hey what's up with the "double synchros" are you saying that you can "beef up" the tranny?
06-24-03, 09:15 PM
#18
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Originally posted by flubyux2
Redline makes two types of gear lube
Redline MTL
Redline MT90
the MT90 is, generally speaking, a "regular" gear oil substitut... so instead of Castrol 80w-90, youd use MT90.
now the MTL is a friction modifyer, kind of like an additive. What its deal is, there isnt as much sulfer (if any) when compared to otther popular gear lubes, which actually corrodes the bronze that composes the synchronizers over time. and the additives in the MTL actually help the Synchros "grip" if you will, a little better so that they help speed the gears up when you shift and there isnt "gear clashing" when you shift.
the MTL will help make shifting a bit easier if youre synchros are already acting up and you have hard shifting and even a grind when shifting cuz it helps the sychros work better... MT90 in comparison, is just gear lube.... really good gear lube.
Royal purple makes good stuff... but i think redline is my old Standby... besides, an acquaintance of mine uses a half-and-half mix of Redline MT90 and Lucas Gear oil in his race trannies... His name is John Shepherd, you may remember him from such sanctioned racing bodies as IDRC and NHRA in which he has won numerous events and also the IDRC street class of 2001 and 2002.
anyhow, John recommended that i use Redline/Lucas blend the tranny he built for me
you could check out his site @ www.shepracing.com if you are a big fan of Ari yallon and his RX7, you will recognize John or his car... cuz they were pretty deep into the competition.
Redline makes two types of gear lube
Redline MTL
Redline MT90
the MT90 is, generally speaking, a "regular" gear oil substitut... so instead of Castrol 80w-90, youd use MT90.
now the MTL is a friction modifyer, kind of like an additive. What its deal is, there isnt as much sulfer (if any) when compared to otther popular gear lubes, which actually corrodes the bronze that composes the synchronizers over time. and the additives in the MTL actually help the Synchros "grip" if you will, a little better so that they help speed the gears up when you shift and there isnt "gear clashing" when you shift.
the MTL will help make shifting a bit easier if youre synchros are already acting up and you have hard shifting and even a grind when shifting cuz it helps the sychros work better... MT90 in comparison, is just gear lube.... really good gear lube.
Royal purple makes good stuff... but i think redline is my old Standby... besides, an acquaintance of mine uses a half-and-half mix of Redline MT90 and Lucas Gear oil in his race trannies... His name is John Shepherd, you may remember him from such sanctioned racing bodies as IDRC and NHRA in which he has won numerous events and also the IDRC street class of 2001 and 2002.
anyhow, John recommended that i use Redline/Lucas blend the tranny he built for me
you could check out his site @ www.shepracing.com if you are a big fan of Ari yallon and his RX7, you will recognize John or his car... cuz they were pretty deep into the competition.
It is strange to read this, as when I first got my 7 and started looking up products I saw at least one post saying to NOT use the MTL. Don't ask me to say where I saw this - it was 3 years ago.
06-24-03, 11:22 PM
#19
I'm abit surprised no one mentioned Redline's new Shock Proof Transmission Oil.
I find It superior to the previous MT90 Redline Oil I was using. For example, with the Shock Proof, the Oil didn't have to be heated up In order to bypass the notchy 2nd Gear I had (which Is a TSB, btw) as opposed to the MT90 which needed to be warmed up.
I find It superior to the previous MT90 Redline Oil I was using. For example, with the Shock Proof, the Oil didn't have to be heated up In order to bypass the notchy 2nd Gear I had (which Is a TSB, btw) as opposed to the MT90 which needed to be warmed up.
06-24-03, 11:24 PM
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If you ahve to replace a synchro, you have to tear the whole tranny down, so its basically a rebuild. but, tearing it down JUST to replace the synchro is like tearing your complete engine down just to replace an apex seal and putting the rest of it back together. youres supposed to do a complete rebuild from scratch if its apart:
New gears
New secondary shaft gears
New synchros
New shims
New bearings
New everythings...
new forks and guides.
New lube... duh
anyhow, On my DSM tranny, it has been beefed up. Its john shepherd's own specs... he hand builds everyone, in a slow precise manner. He takes EVERY piece, every gear, every synchro and hand files all the edges and deburrs them, then he assembles it and shims everything up to the closest tolerances. the Tranny rebuild kit is ~$800... for all the parts to do it to his liking. he did New first and second gears, all new synchros, bearings, and shims. Since he put double synchros in my 3rd gear, he was SUPPOSED to use a 3rd gear, but my tranny was one of the VERY first rebuilds that used Double Synch in 3rd... so he didnt know at the time, that it is SUPPOSED to have a new 3rd gear, he reused the old one. the problem is, there is gear clash w/ the double synch in 3rd gear now. I opted not to get the Evo3 shift forks (cast steel w/ plastic guides) since there have been cases where the guides fall off under rough conditions. i also opted out of the high-speed 5th gear (good for 200+ MPH) since you only have to bump the rev limiter... according to his suggestions.
theorhetically, you should be able to do this kind of work on Every tranny.
anyhow, try the Redline MT90 w/ Lucas oil and the Synchromesh additive... its the best of ALL worlds.
I do remember the old thread about synchros being eaten by MTL... i was one of the pepole posting in it. Other people have told stories of their already-bad synchros failing cuz of MTL eating them up. But, basically, the Sulfer in the gear lube is corrosive and it chemically destroys the bronze in the synchros... so its not cuz of frictional wear and tear or stress loading, its chemical decomposition. After all, Sulfur put the Sulfuiic in "sulfuric Acid". the problem is some cheaper gear lubes are made w/ "Sour Crude" which is called so due to the higher sulfur content, alot of domestic cruide oil is 'sour crude' but its cheaper to buy. the 'sweet crude' has a LOW sulfur content and is the kind of oil that comes from the Middle East and Venezuela and off-shore rigs and what not... its more expensive... think of it as "regular" and "Premium" oil. Sulfur is very corrosive, and it costs more to refine in the long run cuz it DESTROYS the refinery equipment, even stainless steel and Inconel gets eaten by Sulfurous Oil... so its no wonder that cheap gear lube eats synchros... bronze is way more succeptible to damage than Stainless is... Redline is made of high quality **** and has a VERY low sulfur content.
New gears
New secondary shaft gears
New synchros
New shims
New bearings
New everythings...
new forks and guides.
New lube... duh
anyhow, On my DSM tranny, it has been beefed up. Its john shepherd's own specs... he hand builds everyone, in a slow precise manner. He takes EVERY piece, every gear, every synchro and hand files all the edges and deburrs them, then he assembles it and shims everything up to the closest tolerances. the Tranny rebuild kit is ~$800... for all the parts to do it to his liking. he did New first and second gears, all new synchros, bearings, and shims. Since he put double synchros in my 3rd gear, he was SUPPOSED to use a 3rd gear, but my tranny was one of the VERY first rebuilds that used Double Synch in 3rd... so he didnt know at the time, that it is SUPPOSED to have a new 3rd gear, he reused the old one. the problem is, there is gear clash w/ the double synch in 3rd gear now. I opted not to get the Evo3 shift forks (cast steel w/ plastic guides) since there have been cases where the guides fall off under rough conditions. i also opted out of the high-speed 5th gear (good for 200+ MPH) since you only have to bump the rev limiter... according to his suggestions.
theorhetically, you should be able to do this kind of work on Every tranny.
anyhow, try the Redline MT90 w/ Lucas oil and the Synchromesh additive... its the best of ALL worlds.
I do remember the old thread about synchros being eaten by MTL... i was one of the pepole posting in it. Other people have told stories of their already-bad synchros failing cuz of MTL eating them up. But, basically, the Sulfer in the gear lube is corrosive and it chemically destroys the bronze in the synchros... so its not cuz of frictional wear and tear or stress loading, its chemical decomposition. After all, Sulfur put the Sulfuiic in "sulfuric Acid". the problem is some cheaper gear lubes are made w/ "Sour Crude" which is called so due to the higher sulfur content, alot of domestic cruide oil is 'sour crude' but its cheaper to buy. the 'sweet crude' has a LOW sulfur content and is the kind of oil that comes from the Middle East and Venezuela and off-shore rigs and what not... its more expensive... think of it as "regular" and "Premium" oil. Sulfur is very corrosive, and it costs more to refine in the long run cuz it DESTROYS the refinery equipment, even stainless steel and Inconel gets eaten by Sulfurous Oil... so its no wonder that cheap gear lube eats synchros... bronze is way more succeptible to damage than Stainless is... Redline is made of high quality **** and has a VERY low sulfur content.
06-25-03, 08:06 AM
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Alright, so it looks like the majority votes for Redline/Lucas 50/50 mix?
As well as one for the Shock Proof Tranny Oil.....
Is there a guide to the 2G RX-7 capacities, like something you could find in a service manual?
I am going to be changing out ALL the fluids in this little bugger so knowing the capacities would help.
As well as one for the Shock Proof Tranny Oil.....
Is there a guide to the 2G RX-7 capacities, like something you could find in a service manual?
I am going to be changing out ALL the fluids in this little bugger so knowing the capacities would help.
06-25-03, 09:28 AM
#23
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Originally posted by flubyux2
I do remember the old thread about synchros being eaten by MTL... i was one of the pepole posting in it. Other people have told stories of their already-bad synchros failing cuz of MTL eating them up. But, basically, the Sulfer in the gear lube is corrosive and it chemically destroys the bronze in the synchros...
I do remember the old thread about synchros being eaten by MTL... i was one of the pepole posting in it. Other people have told stories of their already-bad synchros failing cuz of MTL eating them up. But, basically, the Sulfer in the gear lube is corrosive and it chemically destroys the bronze in the synchros...
Redline is known to eat synchros too, in many communities. My other car (Stealth) is known for having some fo the worst synchros of any transmission. Redline only made it worse as time went on...I've owned a couple of 3000GTs and it was the same in all of them.
Shockproof light/heavy in the transfercase (or differential) works great though...no synchros to wear or be eaten away.
06-26-03, 08:02 AM
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Quoted from a Fluids VFAQ RE; DSM's
GEAR OILS...
DSM transmissions are very sensitive to lubricants, so the oil you use will have a direct effect on how the transmission shifts. Again, synthetics are superior to conventional oils. First, a GL-4 spec oil must be used in the transmission. Do not use a GL-5 spec oil or you will damage the synchros, the GL-5 additives are corrosive to the brass synchros. Three brands have been found to work best, Red Line MTL (or MT90, which fits DSM spec better), BG Synchroshift, and GM Synchromesh (not actually produced by General Motors). All have their followings. Some cars work better with one and some with another. It can be said with certainty that any of the 3 will improve shifting and transmission life dramatically over standard gear oil. This has been found at the factory too. If you suffer notching shifting and some gear grind, especially when cold, these products will help. If your transmission is notchy all the time and several gears grind, you may have to have synchros replaced or the transmission rebuilt. Depending on your car's age you may be eligible for repair at the dealer through some factory TSBs (Technical Service Bulletins) which replace the synchros with updated parts for a nominal deductable.
For AWD cars, GL-4 or GL-5 synthetic will work for the transfer case and rear end. Redline or any of the synthetic gear oils will work fine here. 75W90 seems to be recommended.
(TS: Note: I personally run MT90 in the tranny and transfer case (so 3 quarts just about perfectly fill the tranny and transfer) and Redline 75W85 gear oil for the rear diff. Redline recommends a mix of MTL/MT90 for DSM trannies, I think straight MT90 works better in warmer climates. The colder the climate, the higher percentage of MTL you'll probably want. People in really cold climates seem to have best luck with straight MTL.)
More info:
Redline MTL/MT90 info
Key passage:
"Most manufacturers of manual transmissions and transaxles recommend an 80W or 90W GL-4 lubricant. GL-5 gears oils which are required in hypoid differentials are not used in most synchromesh transmissions because the chemicals used to provide the extreme pressure protection can be corrosive to synchronizers, which are commonly made of brass or bronze. Typically, the use of a GL-5 lubricant in a synchromesh transmission will shorten the synchronizer life by one half."
Pennzoil info (may not load in Communicator, loads in IE)
Key passage:
"If an API GL-5 gear oil is used in a application where API GL-4 gear oil is called for, chemical corrosion of "yellow metal" components may occur, such as bronze synchronizers, brass bushings, etc. This may lead to shifting difficulties or shortened equipment life."
DSM transmissions are very sensitive to lubricants, so the oil you use will have a direct effect on how the transmission shifts. Again, synthetics are superior to conventional oils. First, a GL-4 spec oil must be used in the transmission. Do not use a GL-5 spec oil or you will damage the synchros, the GL-5 additives are corrosive to the brass synchros. Three brands have been found to work best, Red Line MTL (or MT90, which fits DSM spec better), BG Synchroshift, and GM Synchromesh (not actually produced by General Motors). All have their followings. Some cars work better with one and some with another. It can be said with certainty that any of the 3 will improve shifting and transmission life dramatically over standard gear oil. This has been found at the factory too. If you suffer notching shifting and some gear grind, especially when cold, these products will help. If your transmission is notchy all the time and several gears grind, you may have to have synchros replaced or the transmission rebuilt. Depending on your car's age you may be eligible for repair at the dealer through some factory TSBs (Technical Service Bulletins) which replace the synchros with updated parts for a nominal deductable.
For AWD cars, GL-4 or GL-5 synthetic will work for the transfer case and rear end. Redline or any of the synthetic gear oils will work fine here. 75W90 seems to be recommended.
(TS: Note: I personally run MT90 in the tranny and transfer case (so 3 quarts just about perfectly fill the tranny and transfer) and Redline 75W85 gear oil for the rear diff. Redline recommends a mix of MTL/MT90 for DSM trannies, I think straight MT90 works better in warmer climates. The colder the climate, the higher percentage of MTL you'll probably want. People in really cold climates seem to have best luck with straight MTL.)
More info:
Redline MTL/MT90 info
Key passage:
"Most manufacturers of manual transmissions and transaxles recommend an 80W or 90W GL-4 lubricant. GL-5 gears oils which are required in hypoid differentials are not used in most synchromesh transmissions because the chemicals used to provide the extreme pressure protection can be corrosive to synchronizers, which are commonly made of brass or bronze. Typically, the use of a GL-5 lubricant in a synchromesh transmission will shorten the synchronizer life by one half."
Pennzoil info (may not load in Communicator, loads in IE)
Key passage:
"If an API GL-5 gear oil is used in a application where API GL-4 gear oil is called for, chemical corrosion of "yellow metal" components may occur, such as bronze synchronizers, brass bushings, etc. This may lead to shifting difficulties or shortened equipment life."
MT90 is slippery, but the MTL is supposed to aid worn/crunchy synchros... Ive never heard much about the Synchro in the 3SI... but, im sure you have heard of them in the DSM (Talon/Eclipse/Laser). My 2nd gear synch completely went out... it cost me 1.2 seconds in the 1/4 mile... and i STILL ran a freakin 13.8@101mph.. Trying to get in 2nd gear, even w/ full redline MTL, i missed 2nd all the time, it would grind and grind and especially when power shifting, id hit the revlimiter and shoot huge flames (not from a rotary, from a 4G63!)
you can get Lucas from Napa and you can get Redline from Summit, as well as Royal Purple and a few other good ones like B&M tranny fluid. plus, Summit gives free shipping. so you cant beat it w/ a stick.