A-Spec

240 IS a sports car, you don't need power to be a sports car. It is all about skills. Have you seen a neon demolish a nsx?? I have..SCCA pro vs a rich bastard

I agree that Nissan made it more marketable, but I think it was wise for Nissan to keep the turbos out of US. For both safety and financial problems.

You would get too many ppl spinning out like the MR2. I'm sure their first reaction to a slide is to step on the brake... The definition of "car" for most americans, not all, is that it is a commuter. And because of this they do not realize the importance of oil changes and proper care of the car. Nissan would get too many warranty claims.

Drifting....240 rules, FC has that weird toe controller thing that makes it unpredictable when drifting. Also feels heavier in the back.

as for those that have driven both cars, you have to realize that the suspension is over 10 years old, the shocks and bushings are probably shot. Properly modded I think both cars should be comparable.

anyway forget comparing the cars, they are just cars, don't blame your car for being slow. Grab a helmet and goto a local autox/track. You'll have just as much fun in either a 7 or a 240.

David

PS for those that wants a SR20, contact www.phase2motortrend.com
it is cheaper than you think.
tell them I sent ya~

fast13b

My favorite thing about the AutoX is that there is no such thing as a car that is too slow for it... No matter what you drive you still have to break for the turns, and autox is all about learning to handle your car to the limit if its and your abilities. Everyone should go. If everyone with a license had to AutoX I think the roads would be a lot safer...

Road racing on the other hand requires a whole different level of skill and comittment. The danger is real there.

That FC rear steer sucks. Stock, I bet the 240 is a better drifter, but that's just a feeling.

Even at 12 years old I had professional drivers and instructors drive my 88 GTU at Willow while giving me lessons and they commented on how amazing it *still* handled stock.

How about a homework assignment? Go to some autox's and watch the various cars. You will quickly get a feel for what cars handle and what ones dont. You can learn from the car numbers who is running stock and who is in a modded class. I have not had the privelige of driving most cars, but I have spent a LOT of time watching. (I did the photography for all the AutoX's here for a year or so). The list of the top competitors, from Jap car makers, is: FD3S, FC3S, Miata, S2000, and Civic CRX's. Honestly FC's are at the bottom of that list. FD's rule Super Stock, and the Miatas and CRX's own C stock. I think the S2000 is A stock, same as the 89-91 TII, which can't really keep up. As for the domestics, it's pretty much the Corvettes, which fight the FD's in super stock. Sure there are pepperings of others, but these people are freaks when it comes to handling, so they are on TOP of what the best performers are. Anyways...

fast13b

Personally I think that NSX's handle like ***.

At the time Nissan definitley did not want to increase its financial burden. They had their token turbo car, the 300ZX. I agree with your principal, however I disagree with your MR2 example. The reason everyone spun those is because they suddenly owned a rear-engined car (I know it is mid but I'm making a point...) and continued to drive it like a front engine one. I have not driven a MR2 spiritedly, but I have driven that Lotus 340R to and past its limit, and OMG when the back starts to go it is already gone! Likewise, I think the turn-in is somehow connected to your brain... *zip*

In fact, I might argue that the reason that rear (mid) engine cars are not more prevalent is the same reason that the rotary engine is not as well. Most consumers in the US are not ready or willing to deviate from the norm to the point where they will have to alter their comfortable beingness in order to learn to deal with something different, even when it is (arguably) better. Same reason so many poeple are stuck on AOL!!!

:P

Ni5mo180SX

Dude so what is your point really? I think your ideals of a excellent handling car (and fast car) are way out there when you stomp on great cars, ie NSX. No the R34 runs maybe a 13.4, Lancer also runs 13s. None of those get in the 12s.

Scott T

I am a little confused as to the definition of sedan/coupe. I noticed that the emissions printout for my 240sx says "sedan" under body type, though I had always assumed it was a coupe.

According to Webster, a sedan seats 4-7 people in a single enlcosed cabin, while a coupe is a closed 2 door vehicle which usually seats 2, OR can have a "tight-spaced" rear seat.

Now techincally, there are a lot of cars which would loosely fit both definitions, my 240sx among them. I think the key thing here is "tight spaced" - my interpretation would be that if an average sized adult could fit in the rear seat without chewing on his knees, it is a sedan. Leaves my 240sx out.

However, there are definitely a few street legal US cars which are NOT sedans - 2 seaters such as the corvette, 280Z-ZX 300ZX (non 2+2s), etc.

Scott T

In regards to the 240SX handling - I have driven several and I can tell you it varies a lot from car to car, depending on maintenance. The most recent body style (95-98) had a softer stock suspension with more body roll, having been made into more of a luxury sport. My 92 fastback has 160K miles but still feels very tight, while I have driven a friend's 90 fastback with 120K miles which felt extremely sloppy. (I have replaced my tie rod ends and several bushings).

The problem is, the better-handling older 240's generally have a LOT of miles on them by now, and unless they have been well-maintained can feel loose, especially if the tension control rod bushings are shot (and they often are).

There are a lot of people on the 240sx.org mailing list who do very well autocrossing, and I doubt they could do that if the car handled like a POS. In fact, the main car (within the 240's price range) they mention having trouble beating is the Miata.

AREITU

The 240SX didn't come with an SR20DET for a few reasons that make sense:

1) It would cannabalize sales of the N/A 300Z

2) The main targets, California and Florida, did not have sufficiently high octane, and it's hot in those states. Nissan didn't seem to want to spend the time to reengineer the cars.
---

Anyway, I'm looking for a car, and I'm looking for an FC or an S13 and a Silvia conversion, so I've looked into deep into this subject.
The 240SX --> Silvia conversion has only one thing that stops me from doing it and it's emissions. It'll pass tailpipe, but not visual inspection. It probably won't happen, but I'm paranoid about it anyway.

As for the SCC article, Venus Auto is backordered for a few months on front clips.

baix2

240 are not slow in their REAL form with the SR20, stock to stock probalby the same as FC

handeling wise, i dunno, never spirit driven a S13/180, but FC rocks, at least it's good enough for me

drifitng wise, again never really drift in a s13/180, but drifted a bit in a S14, they rock, the rear feels really light

i dunno if it's the actual design of the S13/180, but braking seems a little too weak, even with the 300zx caliper upgrades

fast13b

My point is that 15 & 16 second cars are not fast. 13's are still pretty friggin fast IMO.

I personally view road racing as a pinnacle of what a car (and driver) is capable of. This is where I derive my ideals from. IMO, the NSX is NOT a great car. It is a flashy expensive I-get-chicks car.

Look. If you want to buy a car and are deciding which, you need to get ALL the info you can and be HONEST about what you want out of it. If all you want is to drag, either car is quite capable! Torque vs. rpm is that question. If you want to handle, the 7 is the clear choice. Do what you want.

I agree with the guy with the dictionary definitions on coupe vs. sedan. I got a bit off the stock topic and was talking more like in racing. Anyways.

~J

SLOWT2

i would have to agree with fast13b on that subject but the 240's are kinda nice cars, nothign compared to a rex .

darkwaveboi

S13's have a stiffer chassis than the FC. Stock for stock this holds true, and ALSO because my brother has Tokico blues and intrax (progressive) springs (he was new at cars at the time) and his car still feels 100 times stiffer (body roll + chassis flex) than mine with KYB AGX and ST linear springs. S13's have less empty space in the cargo where a stock FC has a HUGE amount of empty space (from dash to tail lights) that promotes a lot of flex. Bitch and moan that im wrong all you want, but i OWN an FC and i still think that it comes w/ a stiffer chassis which promotes less body roll than a stock FC.

CanadianRX7

i just wanna know why u guys all think the 240sx is a better drift car then the 2nd gen rx7!!!!!! the fc is like one of the top drifting cars in japan and the 240sx is way below it!!!!!!!!!!

fast13b

FC's come stock with a passive rear steer bushing in the rear suspension that really takes away from the drivers ability to really feel the road and what the car is doing. It basically makes you think that the tail broke loose when it did not. There is a hard bushing you can buy to replace it.

~J

darkwaveboi

the DTSS and eliminators. Yeah, im itching to get my hands on some..40 bux from RB...but sometimes its so hard to buy inexpensive mods...feels like ur takin away from the big ones.
fast13b, I do notice that i feel like my back is about to give out on turns which dont seem to be tough, is it really a 'big' difference in feeling with them installed?

fast13b

BIG difference when you start to get at the limit. What the stock bushing does, is under hard cornering, it actually turns the rear tires in. You feel like you are sliding, when really you are 4 wheel turning. It also blurs the line between when you are really sliding and not. This is bad from a driver's view. I want to KNOW that when A happens, I do B. Not "well, do I do B or C??" ALSO, lets say you are charging the twisties. you go one way, and the bushings kick in. You quickly snap back the other way, but your rear tires are STILL pointed the wrong way. This is bad. If you are a grocery getter, the DTSS adds a margin of safety. If you are a driver, they suck. P.S. you'll have to have them pressed in and out by a shop.
~Jeremy

darkwaveboi

ah, i hate labor charges
There is a How-to on mazdatrix though, it doesnt seem like you need to take it to a shop, but i havent done it, so i really cant say ****.

I have shocks, springs, and front strut tower in my car. Im looking for the next 'affordable' chassis/suspension mod to do (not a rollbar..yet) what do you think i should go for: sways, DTSS, rear camber, lower control arm, etc..?

fast13b

Well whoever does it they WILL have to be pressed.

This should be asked in the "suspension..." forum, but to at least answer your question~

If you have a TII or a GTU the stock sway bars are fine. Adjustable camber plates/ rear camber link is good but second on the list. The short list for FC handling is: The best adjustable struts you can get ($$$), coilovers w/ the appropriate rate springs, and the widest rims you can fit with the best tire you can afford. Then do the camber plates. Aw hell Just read this.
http://2ndgenrx7.freeservers.com/grassrootsproject.html

darkwaveboi

thanks

jspecracer7

If I may quote a famous dude..."What's that **** ya been smoking?"

I have watched drifting in Japan for the last two years and 95% of the cars out there are the 180sx/silvia. I think I've got over 2 DAYS worth of footage with drifting out at Aja/Seneca. It's funny to see a Ferrari Red FD out there drifting with about 8 sr20's.

The FC is RARELY drifted here. It's primarily a drag car.

BuryTheNeedle

Yeah WTF have you been smoking??? FC's arent the best of drifters as the 240sx/180sx whatever are. The FD's seem to be more driftable. Even the first gen Rx7's. Oh and did Jspec racer say that the FC is primarily a drag car?? Uh oh. He might have opened up another can of worms. Hahaha Can't we all just get along? Oh wait nevermind that would be too boring.

jspecracer7

I completely agree. I've drifted both an '89 FC and an '89 S13 Redtop. The 180 handled WAY better than the FC. Because of stupid toe linkages in the rear, I never really knew when I was losing traction.

Stock for stock, the SR20det engine beats the 13BT hands down. In my Zenkei FC, with just intake/exhaust and spark plug wires, I was getting KILLED by a 180sx with the same mods. I believe he also had a fuel pump, but no fuel controller so that didn't matter. As soon as I turned up my boost/fuel and got a frontpipe/midpipe, I was beating him....until he got a 300zx air flow meter and turned his boost up too. Then he was beating me.

The FC has a special place in my heart , and I always stare when I see a sweet looking FC driving down the road, but I have to admit that the 180sx with the SR20DET engine(redtop or black top...doesn't really matter), was a far superior car....

Scott T

Just to compare apples to apples, the 91-93 US 240sx has the KA24DE and is actually a little faster stock-for-stock than the N/A RX7 - car-stats.com gives 0-60 and 1/4 miles times of 8.5-8.6 and 16.5-16.7 seconds for the 89-90 GTU, vs 7.9 and 16.1 for the 91 240sx. Later times for the 240 are a little slower due to a less aggressive cam profile with a less broad torque curve - the 93 was down to 8.4 and 16.3 despite the same peak HP and torque specs. Also IIRC the 91 C+D tested had a VLSD, as well as 4 wheel steering and ABS. It was an awesome handler.

The engines are very close in power output - 155 HP and 160 Ft-lbs for the 240, vs 160 HP and 140 Ft-lbs for the N/A rotary.

keoki-san

sorry to bring back a old tread but you guys have to understand something. there are very few good drifters in the usa. hell there are very few ppl that do anything but drag. How many of you have stayed out on a mountian pass from 12 - 4, 5 am? i doubt any of you. The 240sx is the same as the silvia/180sx in japan besides the engine. the sus is the same and so is...well the tranny isnt but you get me. the 240sx/silvia (sr20) tranys WERE NOT MADE FOR DRAG they are circut cars you can pump as much hp as you want but don't get up set if you just get 12s. they are one of th ebest handling cars from japan and are still used in circuit racing today(the s13/s14 chassis) the FC and FD are also great handling cars but the fact is very few ppl in the USA use them for that. there for where do you get your info from? converted japanese? there are some parts you will have to replace to get the same feel as the 240sx/silvia (all the auto adjustment crap and what not) but its there. the problem with the FC and why its not as popular as the 240sx/silvia is that
1. you can't use the side brake when the car is moving. it doesn't lock

2. alot of ppl drift for long periods at a time you ever try to do a 7 mile down hill mountain pass? Thats about the AVG distance most are. hell there is one here in VA that long maybe a few others. the point is thats alot of stress and heat on the engine. and when you drift your revs are sky high.

3.I don't understand how ppl that don't drift get upset over super street and SCC. hell i enjoy it. i don't wanan pay the high subcription fee for option and drift tengoku just to see some pictures and have no clue whats going on. What is option was avl. on every magazine rack? everyone would hate that and the hole japanese tuner look (some of that stuff is just as tacky as the US stuff) so don't give me that BS all the trendys will wreck there cars and quit anyway so let them come and go. i like being called "mAd TitE dRiVEr yo" why shoudl you care anyway not liek you drift.

But basically i call the 240/silvia king of the mountain mainly because there is more info for it and the parts are EVERYWHERE and made by EVERYONE. thats very important. You WILL wreck and afterwhile you just wanna beable to grab a part and go. OPEN parking lot drifting is not drifting! unless you have a track with cones or what ever. i can't see this as drifting because you have no goal.

oh yeah one more thing, around Christmas time i will hopfully have a Website up. I wanna do instructional videos and suspension tech. (thats if i feel i've reached my limit with the stock sus and i'm ready to move on)
I like to record everything i do with it comes to driving so i will have alot of runs down the "special stages" ^-^
on video. All of my friends grip right now so there will be something for everyone.

sorry for such a long rant. plz don't flame me, everything i have said is very true. AND NO I DONT CARE ABOUT GRAMMAR!!!!!!!

BlackDragon

I HAVE I HAVE! Course the road was a one lane, sharp blind turned, somewhat covered in dirt, no guardrail, no room to drift type of road. I used to drive my 280Z through it (till I sold it to my dad). So for now I'm pullin a "Takumi" style midnight racing thing My current car is my moms old '88 Mercury Tracer (Stationwagon) but I will bet anyone here (or anywhere) money that they could not keep up with me going downhill on that road. I've spent more time there than anyone and the only thing that keeps me from humiliating the acura/honda crowd (by challenging THEM to keep up) is that I believe their inexperience and pride will cause them to push to hard and result in them and their car at the bottom of a 20-75 foot cliff. And me in prison for some fucked up manslaughter/reckless endangerment charge. So for now I just have to race myself. Although I will agree, I don't drift race YET. For two reasons. One is that I haven't found a road in my area that is large enough to drift race on, but empty enough that I won't hit somebody. And two is that I've sold my only RWD car Lookin into some more RX-7s right now though so maybe soon. Good response though Keoki-san. You made some very good points .

keoki-san

Hahaha man souns liek you have some fun! yeah man pride can mess you up. the better you get the more pride you have. but don't underestimate the FF! yeah drifting can get scary at some places our clifs are coverd with trees..its like HUGE drop then roll in to tree. hah but hey you should do a little skit. liek ahve a group of friends stand at a turn and just like hang out talking about driving and parts. then you hear you coming. see the lights and and boom station wagon!! hah do it on liek the fastest turn so it can be kinda lieka ghost and you could liek slow it down and start the song "heartbeat" from initial D!!! with the heart pumping and everything. then do a voice over liek show one of your friends staring and thinking something liek "what super grand dorifto tech-o-nique"!! hahah that would be hot. to bad most the the guys here are too thuged out to make it funny