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Alright, I have lots of experience with the 13BT but not as much with the 13B-REW
I want to switch to a Hall-Effect Trigger for my engine, I am also going to be running an electric water pump, and want to run an FD Aircon Compressor for R134A (rest of system will be designed for it as well).
Now the easiest way I see it is to buy an FD3S Front Cover and A/C Bracket and swap it over for mine.
I will also be converting to a serpentine setup as well for my Alternator, and A/C.
Does anyone know with reasonable certainty that this is a simple case of remove oil pan, remove front cover, re-install front cover, reinstall oil-pan?
- Are the oil pans different as well I have heard this is the case as well. But not certain.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
The other option is to Cut and weld my existing front cover to remove the CAS tube, and to weld on some mounts for the Trigger Sensor to mount to. But that would not be nearly as Clean looking as my option mentioned above.
its a common swap in Japan. they like to run the FD CAS's, because they are better.
my car has a complete FD engine, and i've tried a few things.
the FD and FC covers swap.
1. the oil line fitting on the FD front cover is larger, 18mm like the oil cooler.
2. the turbo drain changes to a smaller size (T4 to a T3?)
3. the FC water pump will fit, but you need to trim the FD's timing pointer. serpentine belts require a kit (KSP $400, or Atkins), air pump becomes impossible, or MC Esher
4. the FD water pump will fit, with no trimming, but you need the longer studs on the block. also the lower hoses barb casting needs to be trimmed, i cut mine, had a piece of pipe welded in, and the stock FC hose fits like its stock.
5. the FD thermostat neck does not clear the hood, i think Banzai sells the flange, and then you can weld another pipe in, and trim a stock FC upper hose.
6. the FD pump is more work, but then you get the FD alternator, and serpentine belts.
7. you need an E fan with the FD setup.
so there is a fair amount of work either way, and you need to figure out what works for you best.
the RE Amemyia FC2000 is an FC engine with an FD water pump front cover and CAS, the yellow FEED car is an FC engine with an FD front cover and FC water pump. so both have been done
Why don't you make your life a lot easier and just use the FFE hall trigger setup for FC and convert your AC system to run off 152a? The FFE kit is a perfect and easy fit (I run it on my personal FC) and the 152a conversion is cheap and a far superior refrigerant to 134a.
You can also just purchase a new FC air compressor and flush out the system and replace all of the o-rings with R134a rated o-rings. I do aircon conversions at work and the new compressors are R134a safe. You can either run PAG oil if the whole system is flushed out, or use AC ester oil.
its a common swap in Japan. they like to run the FD CAS's, because they are better.
1. the oil line fitting on the FD front cover is larger, 18mm like the oil cooler.
2. the turbo drain changes to a smaller size (T4 to a T3?)
3. the FC water pump will fit, but you need to trim the FD's timing pointer. serpentine belts require a kit (KSP $400, or Atkins), air pump becomes impossible, or MC Esher
4. the FD water pump will fit, with no trimming, but you need the longer studs on the block. also the lower hoses barb casting needs to be trimmed, i cut mine, had a piece of pipe welded in, and the stock FC hose fits like its stock.
5. the FD thermostat neck does not clear the hood, i think Banzai sells the flange, and then you can weld another pipe in, and trim a stock FC upper hose.
6. the FD pump is more work, but then you get the FD alternator, and serpentine belts.
7. you need an E fan with the FD setup.
All excellent Info;
Thanks But looking for a bit more clarification on the following
2. The oil drain on the FD case is smaller than the FC in diameter?
3. Water Pump does not matter, as I will be building a custom bracket for Alternator, and will be run by an electric water pump, therfore 5,6 don't apply. 7 is already implemented.
Originally Posted by misterstyx69
The water pumps flow in reverse so watch when you change over and try to drive the FD pump without factoring that in
Thanks, but again read above, I will be going with a custom made water pump adapter/Alternator Mount to ensure proper fitment.
Originally Posted by ACR_RX-7
If you want a hall trigger, look at the FFE kits as well.
The front of the oil pan is different and doesnt line up quite right. Its been done, but some people experience leaks.
The I am currently talking with FFE to see if their kit will work for my needs, however they are not entirely certain about it. So I will continue to do my own thing to ensure I am not stuck without a solution when the time comes. I may very well end up using parts of their kit(s) to make it work.
Originally Posted by DC5Daniel
Why don't you make your life a lot easier and just use the FFE hall trigger setup for FC and convert your AC system to run off 152a? The FFE kit is a perfect and easy fit (I run it on my personal FC) and the 152a conversion is cheap and a far superior refrigerant to 134a.
as for the FFE trigger setup see above for reasons, moreover I plan to convert to serpentine belt system, and the FFE kit will not work for that, at least the way it is designed. I man to run R134 due to how readily it can be serviced, I am modernizing nearly all parts of the the car as I restore it, therefore a relatively small amount of money to have a well designed, and current A/C system just makes sense, especially when you compare the relatively small cost of doing this as to lets say, custom electric system, stand alone EFI, EFR Turbo, Paint, or wheels for that matter.
As for the RX-8 Front cover, that is just not worth it for my application... the FD front cover on the other hand is very likely the way this will go.
I do have a build thread where I will include all the steps required during the build of my car, I am currently in the disassembly phase, and replacing panels, and fixing rust, as well as strengthening the chassis.
If anybody has more information on the FD3s Front cover on the 13BT block Oil plan issues that would be good.
The FFE kit fits behind the stock FC pulleys, so if you got the Atkins serp belt kit, the FFE kit should work just fine. And again, a new FC AC compressor that has not had mineral oil ran through it should be fine for use with R134a. Any compressor can pump any refrigerant. The kicker is the type of oil used.
The FFE kit fits behind the stock FC pulleys, so if you got the Atkins serp belt kit, the FFE kit should work just fine. And again, a new FC AC compressor that has not had mineral oil ran through it should be fine for use with R134a. Any compressor can pump any refrigerant. The kicker is the type of oil used.
How did you mount the sensor?
With an AC bracket in place the sensor has no place to mount to on the FFE kit, I may be able to weld some studs or something to make it work.
For ~$100 for the parts used, I should be able to make the FD front cover work fairly easily.
The compressor was never the issue, the FD compressor comes used with the oil I need, and the serpentine pulley I need as well to run a continuous single serpentine belt.
I don't have the FFE kit yet and I am not going to be running AC. My car is still in pieces, but I pulled a picture off of FFE's site to take a look at it. It is not designed to be run with AC, but you may be able to make some brackets that will put the sensor in the correct location.
What I mean by "behind the stock FC pulleys" was the trigger wheel itself mounts there, but according to the picture, I am very much mistaken. The FD kit mounts behind.
Just mounting to the FD cover will not bring about a hall trigger for you. The FD sensors are VR sensors, so you will be into a swap $100 for a cover and still have to pony up for a hall effect kit.
This is the wiring diagram for an FD, and you will see two CAS sensors, each with two wires. A two wire sensor is VR only.
The FD cover does allow for mounting of AC with the FFE kit though, so if that is your plan then go crazy.
The FD uses two serp belts.
One for ALT, WP, AP, and Crank.
One for PS, AC, and Crank.
You will not get a single belt front drive system with an FD compressor.
Kinda tough to see, but the AC compressor has a 6 rib pulley and the ALT runs a 4 or 5 rib pulley. They don't line up.
Based on what you are after, you would honestly be better off staying with the FC CAS and swapping to either Cosmo pulleys, or use the Atkins kit.
The other option is to get a generic trigger wheel kit from DIYAutoTune with a hall sensor. Make your own brackets for the trigger on the passenger side of the engine that could possibly mount to the OMP bolts with an L-bracket.
I am very well aware of the benefits of going from a VR sensor to a hall sensor. The biggest benefit is a lack of noise and a clearer signal, but you're asking for cake and wanting to eat it too.
This also appears to be what you would need to do to get the oil pan to line up on the front.
Thanks But looking for a bit more clarification on the following
2. The oil drain on the FD case is smaller than the FC in diameter?
yep! smaller turbo, smaller drain. don't forget the FD has two turbos and two drains.
on mine i was able to cut an FD oil drain pipe and then swage it with a socket so its the FC size. i need a do over though as its a little short, and the hose doesn't have much to grab, and the metering pump is a really tight fit
I don't have the FFE kit yet and I am not going to be running AC. My car is still in pieces, but I pulled a picture off of FFE's site to take a look at it. It is not designed to be run with AC, but you may be able to make some brackets that will put the sensor in the correct location.
What I mean by "behind the stock FC pulleys" was the trigger wheel itself mounts there, but according to the picture, I am very much mistaken. The FD kit mounts behind.
Just mounting to the FD cover will not bring about a hall trigger for you. The FD sensors are VR sensors, so you will be into a swap $100 for a cover and still have to pony up for a hall effect kit.
This is the wiring diagram for an FD, and you will see two CAS sensors, each with two wires. A two wire sensor is VR only.
The FD cover does allow for mounting of AC with the FFE kit though, so if that is your plan then go crazy.
The FD uses two serp belts.
One for ALT, WP, AP, and Crank.
One for PS, AC, and Crank.
You will not get a single belt front drive system with an FD compressor.
Kinda tough to see, but the AC compressor has a 6 rib pulley and the ALT runs a 4 or 5 rib pulley. They don't line up.
Based on what you are after, you would honestly be better off staying with the FC CAS and swapping to either Cosmo pulleys, or use the Atkins kit.
The other option is to get a generic trigger wheel kit from DIYAutoTune with a hall sensor. Make your own brackets for the trigger on the passenger side of the engine that could possibly mount to the OMP bolts with an L-bracket.
I am very well aware of the benefits of going from a VR sensor to a hall sensor. The biggest benefit is a lack of noise and a clearer signal, but you're asking for cake and wanting to eat it too.
This also appears to be what you would need to do to get the oil pan to line up on the front.
Yeah that is why I was asking what you mean about the FFE kit, I am talking with them now to see what we can come up with. They indicate the best way is to switch to the FD front cover.
That is by far the best Image of oil pan modification required. I am not opposed to that, I can quite capable of fabricating something like that. I know not everyone is.
As for the single serpentine belt, I am not running a water pump, or power steering pump from the main pulley, the only accessory run from the pulley is alternator and A/C I may have to do some further research for A/C Compressor, go-to's have been FD3S due to the simplicity of the bracket, the other has been the Mustang 5 rib Compressor, which would require a custom accessory bracket. I will be adding a custom tensioner for the serpentine as well. water pump housing will be custom as a result so will be the alternator bracket. So I can line up the pulleys on a single plane as required.
I have not yet discounted going with a custom mount and reluctor ring for a hall sensor, however I also like the idea of less clutter in and around the engine, specifcally the CAS Shaft, even though it will be capped. It has the added benefit of an opportune place for my needed custom belt tensioner.
Thanks for digging up some of those pictures, much appreciated. Once I get the parts, I will post my findings in my build thread, and I will post a link here to the information so that I can close the loop. I am likely a year away from that parts of my build as right now I am doing body work, replacing rusted panels, patching others, and strengthening the Unibody.
Glad I could find something of use. There are literally hundreds of compressors to choose from. You will have to go custom mount for a single plane belt design no matter what you do. Might as well look for a compressor that may have better mount provisions and size.
The other option is to get a generic trigger wheel kit from DIYAutoTune with a hall sensor. Make your own brackets for the trigger on the passenger side of the engine that could possibly mount to the OMP bolts with an L-bracket.
Not as fancy as any of this, but I used a generic hall effect sensor from them (one of these) when i went Megasquirt on my T2. Had a 12-1 wheel machined, and welded to the CAS shaft. DIYAutotune sensor threaded into CAS housing.
Not as fancy as any of this, but I used a generic hall effect sensor from them (one of these) when i went Megasquirt on my T2. Had a 12-1 wheel machined, and welded to the CAS shaft. DIYAutotune sensor threaded into CAS housing.
That is interesting, when I finally start assembling accessories on the engine block, I am certainly going to look at this option as well. though I feel that the FD Front cover is my most favourable at this moment. But I will take a look at this option as It may very well save me ALOT of time.
or just make any of the other generic hall effect sensor kits work
edit: looks like afpreppie beat me to it, you can find generic machined trigger wheels, you would just need to have the bolt patterns drilled for the FC hub.
the FFE kit is nice if you have the money burning a hole in your wallet and want a bolt on kit but a DIY setup could be done for about 1/3 the cost.
switching to a FD front cover just creates more headaches and more potential oil leaks, since the FD cover has an extra bolt hole that cannot be used on an FC front iron, leaving the front cover gasket area only half sealed right under the water pump.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 07-04-16 at 01:48 PM.
switching to a FD front cover just creates more headaches and more potential oil leaks, since the FD cover has an extra bolt hole that cannot be used on an FC front iron, leaving the front cover gasket area only half sealed right under the water pump.
This is something I was not able to dig up with some research I had done to date, that will change things considerably. If I can not guarantee a seal, I am less inclined to go that route.
note the extra bolt hole under the water pump, most people dont talk about it because they simply goop a bunch of silicone in that spot.
FD
FC
that spot is already vulnerable to gaskets slipping out due to the long distance between the FC bolt patterns in that area, silicone is a substitute for a front cover if you don't need the OMP but that spot can blow out with minor amounts of crankcase pressure. ie that bolt hole removes half of the sealing surface in that open spot, instead of about 10mm you get about 4mm, it's not such an issue if there was a bolt there to cinch it down.
you could try filling the hole with jb weld and carefully sanding it flat. it's not a common conversion so i have not tried it. i just know that discrepancy exists due to my handling of the parts for so long. in theory filling the hole is better than just slobbering it full of silicone.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 07-05-16 at 01:05 AM.
I'm glad i came to this thread..
Fc cas is getting the boot using ms3pro..
going with rx8 trigger wheel and sensor, and after see the options... i'm just gonna weld to the FC front cover and make a landing for the rx8 crank sensor.
seems like the easiest thing that doesn't effect everything else. be looking for my thread in a month.
note the extra bolt hole under the water pump, most people dont talk about it because they simply goop a bunch of silicone in that spot.
FD
FC
that spot is already vulnerable to gaskets slipping out due to the long distance between the FC bolt patterns in that area, silicone is a substitute for a front cover if you don't need the OMP but that spot can blow out with minor amounts of crankcase pressure. ie that bolt hole removes half of the sealing surface in that open spot, instead of about 10mm you get about 4mm, it's not such an issue if there was a bolt there to cinch it down.
you could try filling the hole with jb weld and carefully sanding it flat. it's not a common conversion so i have not tried it. i just know that discrepancy exists due to my handling of the parts for so long. in theory filling the hole is better than just slobbering it full of silicone.
I could weld the the bolt hole and then machine it. I will still explore this further.
Thanks for pointing that out, I have not handled many FD parts so this is all new to me.
06-24-16, 06:15 PM
