DTSS is for idiot Joe Schmoe consumer who doesn't know how to drive a sports car.
It can save your *** if you have no clue on how to properly drive a RWD vehicle.

Usually, when most people want to increase performance, you want to stiffen the chassis and remove compliance...not the other way around.
All the serious track guys will remove the DTSS...period.

I still think you're do this the wrong way.


I think you're wasting your time.
Seriously.
There's a lot of other products which you could be developing for FC's (or are you doing this as a personal one-off project?), which could be a money maker for you in the end?

* Re-engineer that piece of **** front diff mount
* Design PU motor mounts that work like stock and not like all the piece of **** bolt-though-a-plastic block crap that everyone else is selling (on eBay)
* Stiffer (PU) bushings for the top of the diff case to chassis

I would think these type of products would be far better benefit for us FC owners...


-Ted

 

Maybe Icemark did a ninja edit on his post

Anyway, I'd like to restore the DTSS too, even if it doesn't increase performance I'll still bring back the car like it was meant to be.

 

well i think it all comes down to just do what you want. i think with the amount of time we sat here talking about you can done ether one replace or remove lol jk. i would say just do what makes you happy and never mind the cost

 

DTSS does not increase the handling limits. If anything it lowers it. It introduces toe-in at the limit. This increases the stability of the car, but lowers the overall grip level. For comparison, f1 cars have toe-OUT, which increases grip levels but can lead to oversteer.

It has been well documented that the ONLY way to fix the DTSS is to get complete new hubs at astronomically high prices. And for the record, the local Mazda dealership charges $90 per hour for labor. Just had my clutch replaced on my wifes Mazda 6 at $570 in labor. Woohoo!
Finally, I wouldn't want it operational in the first place, like Ted said. When I am driving my car, I don't want the suspension geometry changing on me.

 

I put in the eliminators and now the car does what it feels like its doing. Predictability
is a good thing.

 

.....chasing KURUPTED GSX again i see.....

Just kidding!!

 

The Honda Prelude had optional active mechanical rear wheel steering ("4ws"). That's superior to the passive rear wheeling steering in the RX-7. It pulled 0.81g's on the skidpad without 4ws, 0.89g's with 4ws. Same as the TII, I think. According to Honda's history page, four wheel steering was never popular even during development, even among Honda employees. They actually had to get people to drive the car before they would accept it. The 1989 Prelude got awards for best handling vehicle of that year. After the RX-7, Mazda repeated the idea in the MX-6, which had optional active electronic rear wheel steering. The MX-6 beat the Prelude's handling. In the end I suspect 4 wheel steering buckled under the prejudice. Just a guess. I've heard comments about the rotary engine that are strangely similar to the rear steer comments that tend to come up.

Honda Prelude history: http://world.honda.com/history/chall...s/text/05.html
Icemark's FC history, including comments on the DTSS: http://www.mazdamark.com/about_the_fc.htm

Since there already seems to be some interest in the replacement DTSS bushings, I'll start sending those companies some questions via e-mail to see if this is possible.

 

Skyline has it, prelude, mx-6, 240sx, most people dont like it.

I imagine dtss would also, handle much differently with the eagle f1s from the 80s, and a set of 225/40/17 size azenis as well.

I dont think it's worth it.

 

Well if YOU want to keep it, i suggest joining mazda motorsports. You'll be very happy with the prie difference, but another person said sharing prices will possibly get you kicked out, so, im not gonna do that.

 

subscribing, I'm interested in seeing where this goes. Stability is always a good thing in my book.

 

Okay, well, check back in a week. I got a lot to do around the 4th and it's been an epic adventure to try to find a quality alternator that won't fail quickly like my last 2. I'll send those e-mails and do other research as soon as I can to check feasibility.

 

Well these days they seem to be able to make cars handle really well without any fancy rear steer junk.

Keep in mind, it may work well stock, but as soon as you change the parameters it works in (bushings, dampers, springs, roll bars, tires, etc), then you'll change the way it acts. It was designed around old tires that aren't nearly as good as most tires these days.

 

How can you tell if the system is good or bad anyways? (in working order)

 

Good question, Rotary_Powerd, which I would also like to know the answer to.

 

I have the eliminators and Ted is right. They don't increase handling limits at all. I had them in the turbo when it was new and they sucked so bad, it was one of my first mods. I know the articles of the time made rear steer out to be the best thing to happen to cars but; If that's so then why doesn't anything have it anymore??

 

not many performance cars run semi-trailing arm suspensions anymore.....they're usually wishbones up front and multi-link rears.

I still feel like the added stability upon corner exit will make the car easier to power out of a corner. It's not like mazda's full of dumb ***** when they made it, so if you're really serious about all out tracking and have the money to, then why not?

Of course, if you're like 90% of the drivers out there who keep it on the street and your DTSS system is worn beyond imaginations, eliminators will suffice.

 

"My car handles better after getting eliminators": Your DTSS was broken, that's why. Same thing is true with shocks and bushings. A lot of people will also get stiff shocks/bushings, replace their old garbage, and say "They aren't that stiff, my ride is more comfortable than before!" If you have a broken DTSS, please get eliminators. A severely broken DTSS could make your handling so bad that it's dangerous.

RX-7 Rear Suspension: multi-link semi-trailing. Modern multi-links are multi-link double wishbone, multi-link semi-trailing or, sometimes (not often), a multi-link not based off of any conventional suspension. "Multi-link" is a catch-all term for "lots of extra pieces that make it too complicated to describe". The RX-7's stock handling numbers are on par with modern mid-range sports cars.

Testing: Supposedly take a hard turn or look at bushings. Problem is, I don't know exactly what to look for.

 

Nice reply but like I said, I had them in the turbo when it was new. As in, I'm the original owner so; No it wasn't broke. I didn't get to experience how they were when they were bad until I bought the 'vert. It had 100K mi. and was even worse because they were broke.
When they are working right they suck. Rear steer sucks. The Mazda and Honda active rear steer cars are gone. There was a 626 and I think the prelude with active steer as in a rear steering box. So are the passive rear steer cars like the RX7 and 300 ZX. It sucks. But it sounds like you want it and there are a few other people seem to like it too. I promise I won't post in your thread after this but change it out and you'll see how much better the car is.

 

mmm....didn't know about the multi-link generalization, thanks for the info.

I've yet to see anyone who has replaced the DTSS in conjunction with modern tires, it would be interesting to see the results.

 

Sooo..... What do I look for again to know it's broken? I'm assuming it is after 20 years, but exactly am I suppose to look at?

 

well the bushing deflects with a certain amount of force applied to it. basically when a 1985 bridgestone re-71 hits .6G. i dont recall this being in the FSM....

but basically if you're not on the right tires the whole system MIGHT not be working right, even if the bushings are good.

also overlooked part of the dtss system is the front bushing on the rear arm, this deflects too, and should be replaced with something solid when the dtss is blocked.

 

I'm not an expert on the Dynamic Tracking Suspension System (incorrectly named in the speedperformance* link above), but if it does its job when working correctly. As previously said, it produced positive numbers and worked well with automotive technology available in its time. Having said that, I won't comment on whether it was worth the resources spent on this system. One of the main advantages of DTSS is it improves turn-in which hasn't been mentioned (I had to re-read every post to be sure), and it does this well.

The original poster didn't say his DTSS was broken per say, he just referred to his car feeling weird at the limit - I'm paraphrasing here - mentioning fishtailing.

This leads me to the main point of this post, and I have to be careful here, so it is not aimed at anyone in particular. Do not learn the limits of your car, especially one with any "funny/fancy suspension" when you have a guardrail or any non-pylon object near you. This is not the time or place to find out the personality of the DTSS or even a 'regular' suspension. You will learn to either appreceate or hate the DTSS, but more importantly, you'll learn how it feels.

I would remind people that the nut behind the wheel is more important. It comes down to driver skill. A skilled driver will overcome any advantage or disadvantage as far as DTSS or 'non' is concerned.

To the original poster: Go with the eliminators if cost is an issue, go with the DTSS if you want the original setup (some people like to keep things stock or as designed - I have the stock radio in my car because I like the way it looks). You'll adapt your driving to the feel of the car at the limit. Racers eliminate the DTSS for previously mentioned reasons, but most people will not be in that position anyway.

As far as how to tell whether the system is fine or not, have someone experienced do a visual inspection of all the suspension components, especially bushings. Then have someone drive the car with a few pylons in a good sized parking lot. A simple figure 8 layout with a straightaway in between will allow a skilled driver feel for any irregularities under acceleration, braking and weight transfer. The bushings will flex and allow movement, but it should be smooth, predictable and quiet. Once used to the turn in and the characteristics of how the suspension begins to toe-out and then toe-in under more load, the car will feel more predictable. You will get used to the feeling like the car wants to oversteer before it is actually at the limit.

P.S. This 'getting to know your car at the limit' and driver skill is why people with 'inferior' cars kick everyone's *** compared to those with less skill and more modifications.

 

Autocrossers and roadracers also eliminate the DTSS bushings, and not to decrease grip, but to increase it - and make the car controllable at the limit. Drifters do it primarily not to increase or decrease grip, but to make the rear end predictable at the limits of adhesion. DTSS makes the car hard to drive at the limit because the elastic joint can lead to changes in suspension geometry at the limits of adhesion, as the wheel alternates between grip and slip, loading and unloading the bushing - and thereby goes between toe in and toe-out (more correctly, less toe-in) - resulting in snap oversteer. Even in Road & Track's first test of the FC, they commented on how DTSS made the car difficult to drive at the limit, although it worked well up to 9/10s. It is a solution engineered for the street, not the track.

DTSS was designed to keep regular drivers in regular driving feel great and and stay out of trouble. It enhances initial turn in feel with initial toe-out under initial. light-to-moderate cornering forces, to make the car feel more responsive, and as cornering forces build (~.6G), shifting to toe in for better stability under higher, continuous cornering forces. The replacement part from Mazda is ridiculously expensive because you can't get just the bushing, you have to buy the whole hub - a large, aluminum part complete with bearings, bushings, and reasonably complex machining.

If you think your bushings are shot, get the DTSS eliminators, something like the Racing Beat suspension package (springs and bars), a good set of struts all 'round, and a good alignment (give it about 1/16" total toe in at the rear), and your car will handle better than stock and still be very liveable for daily driving, and you'll come away with cash in your pocket.

I have my dtss bushings sitting in front of me, they wouldn't be easy to reverse engineer - it's not just a matter of the rubber/elastomer composition, they also have relatively complex pattern of shaped voids, and the metal bushing in the middle isn't cylindrical, but more like a horse collar.

 

I'm still reminded of the threads that i read about DTSS. The supporters always state that once you get used to DTSS, even at the limit, you'll be faster than eliminating the bushings and setting your alignment to toe-in in the rear. Then again, is that really worth the money?

 

FWIW, my DTSS bushings are in good shape, I replaced them because I got tired of the back tires passing the fronts at the track Mission accomplished there - even when I've run with rear toe-out, the car is more predictable, and therefore faster, at the limit. I frankly have never noticed a difference in street driving, although theoretically the car should be a little less keen to turn it. Setting the front alignment to 0 or very slight toe out makes more difference to turn-in feel than DTSS, although toe-out is really only for a car that is tracked, it will make the car darty, especially in truck-rutted streets.