Staggered? OR Same Size All-Corners?
02-25-11, 05:52 PM
#1
Staggered? OR Same Size All-Corners?
I think several of us shopping for Rims and Tires have gone over this several times in our heads. For those of us who don't know what Staggered is:
Staggered wheels refers to an arrangement of wheels on cars, trucks, planes and other vehicles in which the pair of wheels on one end of the vehicle are a different size or shape than the wheels on the other end. Usually, this means the back wheels are larger than the front wheels, often a couple inches wider across the tread or larger in diameter
Advantages:
* More Grip in the rear
* Result's in better fitment
* Better offset choices for the rear
* May appear to look better
Disadvantages:
* Not sure but is believed to cause more under-steer
* Not able to rotate tires/rims
Now the question is what set-up should you run? Staggered fitment or not?
I'm honestly leaning towards non-staggered? Is there anything else that should be stated for advantages or disadvantages?What are your opinions on this subject? Let's hear it!
Staggered wheels refers to an arrangement of wheels on cars, trucks, planes and other vehicles in which the pair of wheels on one end of the vehicle are a different size or shape than the wheels on the other end. Usually, this means the back wheels are larger than the front wheels, often a couple inches wider across the tread or larger in diameter
Advantages:
* More Grip in the rear
* Result's in better fitment
* Better offset choices for the rear
* May appear to look better
Disadvantages:
* Not sure but is believed to cause more under-steer
* Not able to rotate tires/rims
Now the question is what set-up should you run? Staggered fitment or not?
I'm honestly leaning towards non-staggered? Is there anything else that should be stated for advantages or disadvantages?What are your opinions on this subject? Let's hear it!
02-25-11, 06:37 PM
#2
We recently switched from staggered (18 x 9 w/ 255/25 & 18 x 10 w/ 285/35) to "square" (18 x 8 w/ 225, from a RX-8)wheel/tires on the 3rd gen and it was an amazing difference...for the better.
Not only did the car handle and steer much better but she was easier to drive in a straight line- tramlining disappeared.
If yours is a street car, I'd go with square/non-staggered.
Not only did the car handle and steer much better but she was easier to drive in a straight line- tramlining disappeared.
If yours is a street car, I'd go with square/non-staggered.
02-25-11, 09:55 PM
#5
Not Even Foo
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i'm curious about this.
how about staggered wheels, but square setup for tires?
i currently have 15x7 and 15x8 but 205/50's all around resulting a stretch in the rear.
how about staggered wheels, but square setup for tires?
i currently have 15x7 and 15x8 but 205/50's all around resulting a stretch in the rear.
02-25-11, 11:56 PM
#7
As noted by other posters above, staggered tires make sense if you're making so much power you actually need more grip in the rear. If you're still NA, you're just adding unnecessary unsprung weight with the bigger, heavier rear wheels and tires. Also the stock suspension was set up for "square" fitment, so by adding larger rear tires you will be changing the stock handling balance. Apparently wider rear tires and wheels will tend to make the car tend to understeer more, and for street use, I can't see any advantage in that. Will you actually notice the difference in a street driven car though? I don't know.
Agreed that the stock rear wheels are more "sunk" than the fronts and putting on staggered wheels corrects this aesthetic flaw. That's the biggest advantage I see in a staggered fitment.
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02-25-11, 11:58 PM
#8
As noted by other posters above, staggered tires make sense if you're making so much power you actually need more grip in the rear. If you're still NA or running a turbo setup that's close to stock, you're just adding unnecessary unsprung weight with the bigger, heavier rear wheels and tires. Also the stock suspension was set up for "square" fitment, so by adding larger rear tires you will be changing the stock handling balance. Apparently wider rear tires and wheels will tend to make the car tend to understeer more, and for street use, I can't see any advantage in that. Will you actually notice the difference in a street driven car though? I don't know.
Agreed that the stock rear wheels are more "sunk" than the fronts and putting on staggered wheels corrects this aesthetic flaw. That's the biggest advantage I see in a staggered fitment.
02-26-11, 09:40 AM
#10
Not Even Foo
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I'm guessing this means he's not planning to rotate his tires; no different from a staggered setup with larger tires in the rear where you wouldn't rotate.
As noted by other posters above, staggered tires make sense if you're making so much power you actually need more grip in the rear. If you're still NA, you're just adding unnecessary unsprung weight with the bigger, heavier rear wheels and tires. Also the stock suspension was set up for "square" fitment, so by adding larger rear tires you will be changing the stock handling balance. Apparently wider rear tires and wheels will tend to make the car tend to understeer more, and for street use, I can't see any advantage in that. Will you actually notice the difference in a street driven car though? I don't know.
Agreed that the stock rear wheels are more "sunk" than the fronts and putting on staggered wheels corrects this aesthetic flaw. That's the biggest advantage I see in a staggered fitment.
As noted by other posters above, staggered tires make sense if you're making so much power you actually need more grip in the rear. If you're still NA, you're just adding unnecessary unsprung weight with the bigger, heavier rear wheels and tires. Also the stock suspension was set up for "square" fitment, so by adding larger rear tires you will be changing the stock handling balance. Apparently wider rear tires and wheels will tend to make the car tend to understeer more, and for street use, I can't see any advantage in that. Will you actually notice the difference in a street driven car though? I don't know.
Agreed that the stock rear wheels are more "sunk" than the fronts and putting on staggered wheels corrects this aesthetic flaw. That's the biggest advantage I see in a staggered fitment.
i guess i'll decide on my wheel setup later on when i DO have more power and when i'm more "track-ready". i'm only slightly more than stock with this mild street port and RB exhaust i have on.
*awaits for more replies and opinions of both staggered and square worlds* lol
02-26-11, 10:55 AM
#11
I've often wondered why the rear wheels on the FC appear more sunken in than the fronts, but it was definitely not designed to be used with staggered wheels and tires. You rarely saw that kind of thing in street vehicles in the 1980s, and all FCs came with square fitment from the factory.
Sorry for the double post above, by the way. Wonder how I did that.
Sorry for the double post above, by the way. Wonder how I did that.
02-26-11, 11:48 AM
#12
Not Even Foo
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I've often wondered why the rear wheels on the FC appear more sunken in than the fronts, but it was definitely not designed to be used with staggered wheels and tires. You rarely saw that kind of thing in street vehicles in the 1980s, and all FCs came with square fitment from the factory.
Sorry for the double post above, by the way. Wonder how I did that.
Sorry for the double post above, by the way. Wonder how I did that.
of course, each company has their own design and reason behind why they engineered/designed the car the way it is.
02-26-11, 11:57 AM
#13
We recently switched from staggered (18 x 9 w/ 255/25 & 18 x 10 w/ 285/35) to "square" (18 x 8 w/ 225, from a RX-8)wheel/tires on the 3rd gen and it was an amazing difference...for the better.
Not only did the car handle and steer much better but she was easier to drive in a straight line- tramlining disappeared.
If yours is a street car, I'd go with square/non-staggered.
Not only did the car handle and steer much better but she was easier to drive in a straight line- tramlining disappeared.
If yours is a street car, I'd go with square/non-staggered.
02-26-11, 12:02 PM
#14
i know our cars were designed for "square" fitment stock, probably due to DTSS and tracking reasons.
but i could start naming off cars that run "staggered" stock.
aka, all ferrari, all lambo
dropping down from super cars
370z
350z
g35
honda nsx
now, these cars all were not designed as mommy get around town cars, but neither was the fc.......... if you want to run wider wheels and wider tires, you start running into more rolling resistance and the rest of the problems that physics brings.
yes, you will need higher hp to lug around heavy wheel/tire setups, but the not being able to "rotate" the tires isnt really that big of a deal
Lloyd
but i could start naming off cars that run "staggered" stock.
aka, all ferrari, all lambo
dropping down from super cars
370z
350z
g35
honda nsx
now, these cars all were not designed as mommy get around town cars, but neither was the fc.......... if you want to run wider wheels and wider tires, you start running into more rolling resistance and the rest of the problems that physics brings.
yes, you will need higher hp to lug around heavy wheel/tire setups, but the not being able to "rotate" the tires isnt really that big of a deal
Lloyd
02-26-11, 03:14 PM
#18
Fuel economy was still a selling point with sports cars in '86. The FC was sort of on the tail end of that movement. I'm guessing the smallish wheels and tires had something to do with that. Also the desire to keep the car light for reasons of nimble handling.
02-27-11, 12:45 PM
#19
ya, i think youre right. i think that mazda was not only trying to make a powerful small sports car to compete with the powerhouses of the time, but still keep it driveable on the daily, and not horrible for the wallet for gas.
and the stock wheels are pretty heavy for how small they are, with the exception of the vert wheels. tires compensate for any light weight wheel, tires can still be pretty damned heavy.
i really believe that alot of the reason for the limited wheel and tires size setup is due to mazda trying to make them sporty and trackable, but daily driveable as well.
they did a hell of a good job imo
Lloyd
and the stock wheels are pretty heavy for how small they are, with the exception of the vert wheels. tires compensate for any light weight wheel, tires can still be pretty damned heavy.
i really believe that alot of the reason for the limited wheel and tires size setup is due to mazda trying to make them sporty and trackable, but daily driveable as well.
they did a hell of a good job imo
Lloyd
02-28-11, 09:51 AM
#20
What I know is that running your car staggered will change the suspension geometry, as the weight will be transferred differently than stock when cornering. It is something that can be fixed tho.
If I remember correctly it was well explained in a Modified mag that I have somewhere. You need toe link adjuster and rear camber adjuster to be able to reach a geometry as close as possible even tho you have a lowered suspension and wider tires in the rear.
If I remember correctly it was well explained in a Modified mag that I have somewhere. You need toe link adjuster and rear camber adjuster to be able to reach a geometry as close as possible even tho you have a lowered suspension and wider tires in the rear.
02-28-11, 08:22 PM
#21
Going Nowhere
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The understeer/oversteer talk has to do with the track on the wheels. Using spacers on "square" wheels (rims of same width and same size tires) can still effect handling. Spaceing out the rear to help make it flush will still induce a little bit more understeer than not. For street cars this shouldnt matter as nobody should be finding the handling traits of their car on the road. So are we talking a race set up or a street set up?
02-28-11, 09:37 PM
#22
Im running staggered as well.
225/45/17 245/40/17
cornering is !!!F-ing!!! amazing!
when racing 1st to 2nd spins sick and sends me sideways, but usually catches at ~4.5k
im gonna throw on 255's as soon as these are done.
(most of my races happen on highway, not nice track scenario)
imo, i love the staggered, there is ZERO reason for -me- to go wider in the front,
and i dont have not much room anyway, and i would refuckingfuse to go skinnier on the rear.
i couldnt see how id get traction on 225's in the rear.. i spin just punching it in 2nd as soon
as i hit 15psi now.
My vote is: i wouldnt touch square.
225/45/17 245/40/17
cornering is !!!F-ing!!! amazing!
when racing 1st to 2nd spins sick and sends me sideways, but usually catches at ~4.5k
im gonna throw on 255's as soon as these are done.
(most of my races happen on highway, not nice track scenario)
imo, i love the staggered, there is ZERO reason for -me- to go wider in the front,
and i dont have not much room anyway, and i would refuckingfuse to go skinnier on the rear.
i couldnt see how id get traction on 225's in the rear.. i spin just punching it in 2nd as soon
as i hit 15psi now.
My vote is: i wouldnt touch square.
03-02-11, 12:07 AM
#24
I rotate my tires all the time, especially since I'm doing alot more auto-x now.
Tires in my size are expensive (still cheaper than 18s!), so I like to make the most of it. They get flipped when they show abnormal wear.
Only reason I'm not running 285's in 18's all around is because of cost, plus my skills aren't high enough to require that much tire
255's x 4 + big brakes = feels like dropping anchors out the window
When I get my debts paid off, I'll probably start chopping the metal up for some wider meats.
Tires in my size are expensive (still cheaper than 18s!), so I like to make the most of it. They get flipped when they show abnormal wear.
Only reason I'm not running 285's in 18's all around is because of cost, plus my skills aren't high enough to require that much tire
255's x 4 + big brakes = feels like dropping anchors out the window
When I get my debts paid off, I'll probably start chopping the metal up for some wider meats.
03-02-11, 04:18 PM
#25
Going Nowhere
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well in my opinion it wouldnt matter for drifting, sorry but i think offsets and staggered doesnt apply in drift set up, and seeing how most grassroots drifters have many different sets of spares, it would be hard to keep a constant set up. the way i did it when i raced spec miata was i bought some rims with offsets 4-8mm less than the maximum offset allowed. since they were mandated to 15x7 with 205 tires, the were "square." i would then play with the spacers to help with understeer/oversteer. its cheap and a easy way to adjust handling, but spec miata was very limited in what you could adjust to help handling.