The End All, Be All FC3S Electric Fan?
07-13-10, 06:51 AM
#126
Of course it's not- I was referring to Bob Barker, a reference possibly too obscure for everyday use.
I wish I could say that I agree but I've run both with and without the stock plastic bellypan and not seen much difference.
I'm not disputing the benefits of good ducting, just this specific Mazda implementation.
I often see the bellypan recommended as a cure for poor cooling performance and I wish I could see the benefit (after all, I hunted one down and chased all the mounting point threads to install it...no small task), but as yet, I haven't.
It can't hurt though, I suppose.
I'm not disputing the benefits of good ducting, just this specific Mazda implementation.
I often see the bellypan recommended as a cure for poor cooling performance and I wish I could see the benefit (after all, I hunted one down and chased all the mounting point threads to install it...no small task), but as yet, I haven't.
It can't hurt though, I suppose.
07-13-10, 11:19 PM
#127
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Terrific read. Very good photo documentation. I wasn't aware of that cool relay you could get. Certainly it's ideal to have the fan on under only certain conditions as (when ducting on the car is setup well) there's no reason to run it once the vehicle is moving good and quick down the road. It's meant as more of a low vehicle speed thing.
On my Turbo II, I've got my Fiero fan wired in to the Haltech and it ground-switches it on at 193*F and then shuts it off at 188*F. So, in theory, it's not coming on really when the car is going down the highway; just at lower speeds where there's not enough air moving through the front air damn and into the heat exchangers to pull heat out of the rad.
I'm going to have to eyeball your thread a bit more. I think it deserves a sticky.
B
On my Turbo II, I've got my Fiero fan wired in to the Haltech and it ground-switches it on at 193*F and then shuts it off at 188*F. So, in theory, it's not coming on really when the car is going down the highway; just at lower speeds where there's not enough air moving through the front air damn and into the heat exchangers to pull heat out of the rad.
I'm going to have to eyeball your thread a bit more. I think it deserves a sticky.
B
So if I run the whole relay thing, is the e-fan going to run on a low speed until it has to kick on high? Because that's what I want. My 05 Mazda3 does it (I think). But I'm running 12v on my S4 alternator right now anyway, so I can't get any more onto it.
07-15-10, 10:44 PM
#128
Has anyone tried to run one of these before? It's pricey but I wouldn't mind paying to have this if it works good!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DUAL-...Q5fAccessories
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DUAL-...Q5fAccessories
07-16-10, 09:12 AM
#129
Of course it's not- I was referring to Bob Barker, a reference possibly too obscure for everyday use.
I wish I could say that I agree but I've run both with and without the stock plastic bellypan and not seen much difference.
I'm not disputing the benefits of good ducting, just this specific Mazda implementation.
I often see the bellypan recommended as a cure for poor cooling performance and I wish I could see the benefit (after all, I hunted one down and chased all the mounting point threads to install it...no small task), but as yet, I haven't.
It can't hurt though, I suppose.
I wish I could say that I agree but I've run both with and without the stock plastic bellypan and not seen much difference.
I'm not disputing the benefits of good ducting, just this specific Mazda implementation.
I often see the bellypan recommended as a cure for poor cooling performance and I wish I could see the benefit (after all, I hunted one down and chased all the mounting point threads to install it...no small task), but as yet, I haven't.
It can't hurt though, I suppose.
08-29-10, 09:51 PM
#132
Amperage Tested High and Low on the Villager Fan
My Daddy always said "If you want something done right, do it yourself." So since no one else had measured the current use of the Villiager fan, I decided to do it myself.
Background:
A couple of months ago I grew tired of the raucous single-speed Fan action of my Mighty Lincoln Mark VIII 18" fan. I switched back to my original 2-speed Taurus Fan. What a relief.
Except for a couple of nagging things. The Taurus fan was not the best fit on my Griffin Rad . The 16" Taurus fan just seemed, well, rather small. Then we all had the fun thread about freeway temperatures, leaving me with the desire for more open area in the fan, thus I felt renewed need for an 18" fan.
So I took the plunge Saturday at the local salvage and got my own End All Be All Fan.
Since my Griffin rad core is 19" x 19", the fit is purely custom. The Villager fan is +/-17.5" and has a much less aggressive fan blade than the Mark VIII. This is a good thing if you want some extra free air flow. And I do.
So a little time on the table saw, some aluminum angle crossed with the aviation snips, mixed with a little pop-rivet action yielded the perfect custom-fit fan. The fan gives me the wall-to-wall fan similar to the Mark VIII fan, adds lots of additional fan off airflow, but leaves me with the slick 2-speed action that I prefer.
Oh, yeah, the numbers. Slightly less than 10 amps on low speed, slightly less than 20 amps on high speed. I didn't take any pictures of the ammeter like I did when I measured the Taurus and the Mighty Lincoln Mark VIII fan but I measured it with the same gauge. The test yielded 5 amps less than the Taurus on both low and high speeds. 7 amps less than the Mighty Lincoln Mark VIII Fan's single embarrassingly aggressive speed. I suspect that the fan could be successfully used with a stock S5 alternator, I don't know about the S4.
How does it blow/suck compared to the Taurus and the Mark VIII? Less than either of those other fans. It is definitely powerful enough to do the trick. The large 18" fan blade has a noticeably longer spool up time compared to the Taurus and Lincoln fans. That would be expected since the motor is less powerful as evidenced by the lower amperage draw. The start up inrush amps are also lower, but last quite a bit longer.
Sorry for the crappy nightime Iphone pics.
Background:
A couple of months ago I grew tired of the raucous single-speed Fan action of my Mighty Lincoln Mark VIII 18" fan. I switched back to my original 2-speed Taurus Fan. What a relief.
Except for a couple of nagging things. The Taurus fan was not the best fit on my Griffin Rad . The 16" Taurus fan just seemed, well, rather small. Then we all had the fun thread about freeway temperatures, leaving me with the desire for more open area in the fan, thus I felt renewed need for an 18" fan.
So I took the plunge Saturday at the local salvage and got my own End All Be All Fan.
Since my Griffin rad core is 19" x 19", the fit is purely custom. The Villager fan is +/-17.5" and has a much less aggressive fan blade than the Mark VIII. This is a good thing if you want some extra free air flow. And I do.
So a little time on the table saw, some aluminum angle crossed with the aviation snips, mixed with a little pop-rivet action yielded the perfect custom-fit fan. The fan gives me the wall-to-wall fan similar to the Mark VIII fan, adds lots of additional fan off airflow, but leaves me with the slick 2-speed action that I prefer.
Oh, yeah, the numbers. Slightly less than 10 amps on low speed, slightly less than 20 amps on high speed. I didn't take any pictures of the ammeter like I did when I measured the Taurus and the Mighty Lincoln Mark VIII fan but I measured it with the same gauge. The test yielded 5 amps less than the Taurus on both low and high speeds. 7 amps less than the Mighty Lincoln Mark VIII Fan's single embarrassingly aggressive speed. I suspect that the fan could be successfully used with a stock S5 alternator, I don't know about the S4.
How does it blow/suck compared to the Taurus and the Mark VIII? Less than either of those other fans. It is definitely powerful enough to do the trick. The large 18" fan blade has a noticeably longer spool up time compared to the Taurus and Lincoln fans. That would be expected since the motor is less powerful as evidenced by the lower amperage draw. The start up inrush amps are also lower, but last quite a bit longer.
Sorry for the crappy nightime Iphone pics.
08-30-10, 08:09 AM
#133
Thanks for that, Jack.
I've been following all these efan discussions with interest even though I'm pretty happy with my current Taurus/Volvo setup.
It does strike me however that perhaps there are significant gains to be had by concentrating more on the shrouding and less on the fan itself.
It's important to note that the stock efans we're adapting are hardly models of efficiency.
They are squeezed down to the minimum possible thickness so they'll fit within the constraints of the engine bay packaging and airflow dynamics was sacrificed in the process.
If you cede "gold status" to the stock thermoclutch fan, the obvious main difference ( given that a Taurus two-speed and the stock fan both pull @ the same CFM) is the stock shroud, which is much more voluminous than the standard efan.
The larger Villager fan partially solves the problem simply by virtue of the larger fan opening but still leaves the four corners and the fan hub area shrouded.
Spacing the fan 4" or so off the radiator core would eliminate those dead spots and probably even reduce the sound level.
This might be a problem for you given your oddball outlet placement, but would be pretty simple for us normal folk.
I may have to look into this...
I've been following all these efan discussions with interest even though I'm pretty happy with my current Taurus/Volvo setup.
It does strike me however that perhaps there are significant gains to be had by concentrating more on the shrouding and less on the fan itself.
It's important to note that the stock efans we're adapting are hardly models of efficiency.
They are squeezed down to the minimum possible thickness so they'll fit within the constraints of the engine bay packaging and airflow dynamics was sacrificed in the process.
If you cede "gold status" to the stock thermoclutch fan, the obvious main difference ( given that a Taurus two-speed and the stock fan both pull @ the same CFM) is the stock shroud, which is much more voluminous than the standard efan.
The larger Villager fan partially solves the problem simply by virtue of the larger fan opening but still leaves the four corners and the fan hub area shrouded.
Spacing the fan 4" or so off the radiator core would eliminate those dead spots and probably even reduce the sound level.
This might be a problem for you given your oddball outlet placement, but would be pretty simple for us normal folk.
I may have to look into this...
08-30-10, 09:30 AM
#136
I've been looking into other aftermarket fan/shroud setups (most notably BMW) and some of those shrouds are even more agrressive (higher percentage of shroud area compared to fan area, and even closer to the rad core). Yet they don't seem to suffer from the same "at speed" temp increases. I can only imagine that ducting is the difference.
Someone also mentioned vents or flaps in the shroud as a way to allow more air flow at higher speed, perhaps one per corner and the use of the underbody tray would solve the problem.
08-30-10, 09:52 AM
#138
It does strike me however that perhaps there are significant gains to be had by concentrating more on the shrouding and less on the fan itself.
If you cede "gold status" to the stock thermoclutch fan, the obvious main difference ( given that a Taurus two-speed and the stock fan both pull @ the same CFM) is the stock shroud, which is much more voluminous than the standard efan.
The larger Villager fan partially solves the problem simply by virtue of the larger fan opening but still leaves the four corners and the fan hub area shrouded.
Spacing the fan 4" or so off the radiator core would eliminate those dead spots and probably even reduce the sound level.
This might be a problem for you given your oddball outlet placement, but would be pretty simple for us normal folk.
I may have to look into this...
If you cede "gold status" to the stock thermoclutch fan, the obvious main difference ( given that a Taurus two-speed and the stock fan both pull @ the same CFM) is the stock shroud, which is much more voluminous than the standard efan.
The larger Villager fan partially solves the problem simply by virtue of the larger fan opening but still leaves the four corners and the fan hub area shrouded.
Spacing the fan 4" or so off the radiator core would eliminate those dead spots and probably even reduce the sound level.
This might be a problem for you given your oddball outlet placement, but would be pretty simple for us normal folk.
I may have to look into this...
The distance from the core to the fan must be set up so that there is even pressure (in this case negative pressure) across the face of the core. If the fan is placed too close, some areas near the fan will have increased neg press, other places will have reduced neg pressure. The ultimate example of too close is the aftermarket 14" pusher zipped through the rad core. The key question is how far back will equalize the neg pressure, thus equalize the flow. Once the fan is far enough back to equalize, there is no advantage to moving it further back.
The minimum spacing of the fan from the core is an easy calculation. Generally, there needs to be a minimum ratio between the heat exchanger area and the free air area. That ratio is 2:1. This ratio can be used to determine the fan setback required to equalize flow. A couple of years ago when I was planning to develop a custom cooling fan for another car platform, I developed a fan shroud calculator.
You can plug in the dimensions of the core and the diameter of the fan. You will find the minimum setback from the radiator core and the percentage of fan opening to radiator area.
08-30-10, 10:01 AM
#139
Airflow through the engine bay is an interesting subject.
We get higher pressure zone in front of the air inlet in the bumper.
We get lower pressure under the car.
We get higher pressure under the hood (fan pressurizes the engine bay)
Air flows from higher to lower pressure, ie. pressure gradients.
Turbulence disrupts airflow.
Observation:
The efan is aimed up at 45* angle towards the top of the engine bay to the hood, blowing up over the motor then down and out the openings at the lower back of the bay.
The stock fan is blowing horizontal towards the motor and mostly towards the exit of the engine bay.
Hypothesis:
Perhaps the direction of the efan flow creates enough turbulence to interfere with the total airflow through the engine bay.
Stated another way, maybe the stock fan creates a less turbulent flow through the engine bay, thus increasing its effectiveness.
Thoughts?
We get higher pressure zone in front of the air inlet in the bumper.
We get lower pressure under the car.
We get higher pressure under the hood (fan pressurizes the engine bay)
Air flows from higher to lower pressure, ie. pressure gradients.
Turbulence disrupts airflow.
Observation:
The efan is aimed up at 45* angle towards the top of the engine bay to the hood, blowing up over the motor then down and out the openings at the lower back of the bay.
The stock fan is blowing horizontal towards the motor and mostly towards the exit of the engine bay.
Hypothesis:
Perhaps the direction of the efan flow creates enough turbulence to interfere with the total airflow through the engine bay.
Stated another way, maybe the stock fan creates a less turbulent flow through the engine bay, thus increasing its effectiveness.
Thoughts?
08-30-10, 12:58 PM
#141
Steve-
The distance from the core to the fan must be set up so that there is even pressure (in this case negative pressure) across the face of the core. If the fan is placed too close, some areas near the fan will have increased neg press, other places will have reduced neg pressure. The ultimate example of too close is the aftermarket 14" pusher zipped through the rad core. The key question is how far back will equalize the neg pressure, thus equalize the flow. Once the fan is far enough back to equalize, there is no advantage to moving it further back.
The minimum spacing of the fan from the core is an easy calculation. Generally, there needs to be a minimum ratio between the heat exchanger area and the free air area. That ratio is 2:1. This ratio can be used to determine the fan setback required to equalize flow. A couple of years ago when I was planning to develop a custom cooling fan for another car platform, I developed a fan shroud calculator.
You can plug in the dimensions of the core and the diameter of the fan. You will find the minimum setback from the radiator core and the percentage of fan opening to radiator area.
The distance from the core to the fan must be set up so that there is even pressure (in this case negative pressure) across the face of the core. If the fan is placed too close, some areas near the fan will have increased neg press, other places will have reduced neg pressure. The ultimate example of too close is the aftermarket 14" pusher zipped through the rad core. The key question is how far back will equalize the neg pressure, thus equalize the flow. Once the fan is far enough back to equalize, there is no advantage to moving it further back.
The minimum spacing of the fan from the core is an easy calculation. Generally, there needs to be a minimum ratio between the heat exchanger area and the free air area. That ratio is 2:1. This ratio can be used to determine the fan setback required to equalize flow. A couple of years ago when I was planning to develop a custom cooling fan for another car platform, I developed a fan shroud calculator.
You can plug in the dimensions of the core and the diameter of the fan. You will find the minimum setback from the radiator core and the percentage of fan opening to radiator area.
Airflow through the engine bay is an interesting subject.
Hypothesis:
Perhaps the direction of the efan flow creates enough turbulence to interfere with the total airflow through the engine bay.
Stated another way, maybe the stock fan creates a less turbulent flow through the engine bay, thus increasing its effectiveness.
Thoughts?
Hypothesis:
Perhaps the direction of the efan flow creates enough turbulence to interfere with the total airflow through the engine bay.
Stated another way, maybe the stock fan creates a less turbulent flow through the engine bay, thus increasing its effectiveness.
Thoughts?
Seems that most of them run extractor hoods, don't they?
08-30-10, 01:01 PM
#142
simple answer to your question, find a modular fan core that fits just inside the stock fan shroud and screw it to the frame of the shroud. i have one just like that sitting around here somewhere that someone gave me, i haven't tested it because i have a FMIC sitting in front of my radiator versus in front of the car so space is an issue.
08-30-10, 01:12 PM
#143
simple answer to your question, find a modular fan core that fits just inside the stock fan shroud and screw it to the frame of the shroud. i have one just like that sitting around here somewhere that someone gave me, i haven't tested it because i have a FMIC sitting in front of my radiator versus in front of the car so space is an issue.
Don't forget that the waterpump snout fits right up into the shroud opening, so the efan must be recessed into the shroud.
In an of itself, this is no big deal but a problem does exist in the shape of the shroud at the top. As the fan is recessed it starts to bottom out at a blank wall for a healthy section of the top.
For me at least, the stock shroud is a non-starter because it doesn't fit my Godspeed radiator anyway (endtanks instead of top/bottom).
I just returned from the junkyard...no Villager fans to be had.
Instead I got another Volvo fan (using one on the swapped FD to good effect) and will see how weird it might be to use it.
09-16-10, 08:06 AM
#146
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i dont think in this thread i read once what model and year we were pulling these fans from. my local junk yard guys dont let you wander around very easily, so it would be helpfull if we got a official year and model.
thanks
thanks
09-16-10, 01:44 PM
#148
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Went scrapyard shopping this past weekend.
For anyone's reference, The same fan is used on 3.8L Ford Tauruses from 1988 to 1994 as well as Lincoln Continentals. Verified by part number.
The Lincoln Continental, being a larger car, ALWAYS came with the 3.8.
The Taurus, you must verify that it's a 3.8L V6. The 3.0L V6 uses a weaker fan.
For anyone's reference, The same fan is used on 3.8L Ford Tauruses from 1988 to 1994 as well as Lincoln Continentals. Verified by part number.
The Lincoln Continental, being a larger car, ALWAYS came with the 3.8.
The Taurus, you must verify that it's a 3.8L V6. The 3.0L V6 uses a weaker fan.
09-17-10, 12:31 PM
#149
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Okay seriously. I need to figure this out. I have an s4 vert with an s5 alternator. I pulled the rubber seal thats on the aft side of the hood, so the hot air is pulled out and runs along my windsheild (helps with defrost because it's been known to rain up here once in a while lol). I have a koyo radiator, and I want a fan(s) setup that big enough. Tourus fan didn't work that well...
09-21-10, 12:53 PM
#150
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I just got one of these at the local junk yard, for $38 to install on a buddy's FC. I was on the way out, and saw another one lying against the van already taken out so i got that one too. If someone wants it, let me know.
I was curious: the thermoswitch on all my other cars tells the fans when to kick in. The FC has a mechanical fan, soooo, why does it have a thermoswitch? What does it switch?
I was curious: the thermoswitch on all my other cars tells the fans when to kick in. The FC has a mechanical fan, soooo, why does it have a thermoswitch? What does it switch?