Blade8r

This is what im getting so far... of the Cheapest kit after reading / studing the post you guy's have just written down.

Basic Rebuild part list

Gasket Set 86-88 n/a - $130 - http://atkinsrotary.com/
2mm Corner Seal Plug Set - $21 - http://atkinsrotary.com/
Front main Seal - $3.75 - http://atkinsrotary.com/
Rear main Seal - $6.15 - http://atkinsrotary.com/
FD Corner Seals Springs x12 - $27 - http://atkinsrotary.com/
Atkins Rotary Viton Oil Rings Set - $39.95 - http://atkinsrotary.com/
Apex Seals and Springs Set - 182 - http://rotaryaviation.com/
13b 2mm Side Seal Spring Set - 18 - http://atkinsrotary.com/
Thermal Pellet - 6.15 - http://atkinsrotary.com/

130.00
21.00
3.75
6.15
27.00
39.95
182.00
18.00
6.15
---------
433.05
+% Tax
.08
---------
467.69

Is that it??? Get All the necessary stuff i need to rebuild to my home for around less then 500 dollars shipped? geez... if people only knew...

edit: this is Dirt cheap to me considering i have access to Tools a home mechanic could only dream bout.

ddub

You don't need the corner seal plugs if you want to save even more. For me they made installation easier, but in all honesty you don't NEED them.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

looks good, better than my original estimates.

Blade8r

my best friend family runs a machine shop. this shop rebuilds every motor possibly known to man.

Except rotaries...

the whole family dislikes my car due to it's pistonless capabilities. including my own friend. thus it's my dillemma. My friends OL'Man told me once, "Mira Richard, Im not going to Touch this Fuc*en car but if you want to do it here i have no problem with that." Im going to take him up on that offer. being a cocky (25 year) machinist Verteran. i just like his aditude to things. I now having access to CNC machineing, Air tools, and every tool possibly needed at my disposal.

would anyone object to myself undergoing a rebuild Via First try. I am very Mechainicly incline i might add. I have a GREAT deal of book work behind my knoledge yet no Real Hands on work. other then working on hondas motors.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i don't think any of us minding helping out with how we can, rotaries are extremely simple engines once you get the basics and what to look for down.

i do suggest getting one of the 3 videos avialable and watching it before you start and read over the overhaul section of your haynes manual.

Bob_The_Normal

Copyright 2005 Gary Hill (So no one goes stealing this and selling it on ebay. ;P)

Okay there is a ungodly wealth of information on where to get what parts here already so I'm gonna add something I would have found REALLY usefull when I started... a kind of "stages" list for engine rebuilding... these are what parts you NEED to rebuild which stages. This should help for those that don't know what to order and have on hand BEFORE they start tearing things apart, and which things to order later, IF they need them.


Stage 1: Just the basics

Mazda OEM Gasket Kit: Sold by many stores, you need this kit in order to reassemble the engine to long block.
Reasons not needed: You recently rebuilt the engine and used RTV to seal everything, AND the gaskets were not destroyed in disassembly. The oil pan gasket is a sure to be destroyed gasket. Mazdatrix, Racingbeat both sell the oil pan gasket by itself btw... I never saw it listed but you can call them up and ask for it.

Soft Seals Kit. Sold by Atkins, RA, and Mazdatrix as far as I know... this is a kit that includes a lot of O-rings, copper washers and other things you'll need to reassemble the block.
Reasons not needed: Like the gasket kit, if you recently rebuilt your engine ALL the things in this kit should be great EXCEPT for the copper washers!! Copper washers mash themselves easily, which is why they seal well. You should replace them every time.

Front and Rear Main Seals. Might be included in the Soft Seals kit, or might not... check. Replace them if they haven't been replaced very recently.
Reasons not needed: The only reason you shouldn't is if you rebuilt (and replaced them) and one month later you're pulling it apart for some reason... then you probably don't need them.

Inner and outer ring seals/coolant seals. Included in the soft seals kit most times... if youve pulled apart the engine, no matter if you rebuilt it yesterday, these will need to be replaced. ;P

Pilot Bearing + O-Ring. Everyone recommends you replace these every time, it's 5$ at most and requires removal of the entire transmission if it goes out... so just replace it while everything is out.. in case.
Reason not needed: You just replaced it! Even then... some people say you're likely to do damage to it during engine removal, even if it is brand new... and so you should replace it every time no matter what. But that's opinion.

Throwout Bearing. This is actually on the transmission but like the pilot bearing, COMMONLY they go out... so why not while it's easy?
Reason not needed: Again, recently replaced then you don't need to obviously.

Stage 2: Basic Engine internals

Thermal Pellet. There is tons of debate on whether to replace the OEM thermal wax coupling thing with a solid pellet that Atkins sells. The thing is, it's pretty much IMPOSSIBLE for the solid thermal pellet to hurt your engine... unless you install it backwards or something. The OEM one has a POSSIBILITY of failing and starving the bearings of oil. But it's HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely that it will happen with a new one, they are designed well. So it's up to you if you think the accerated warmup the pellet is designed to do is worth the tiny chance of starving the engine or not. I went solid... because it's cheaper. ;p
Reason not needed: It's been replaced.

Rotor Seals:

Side Seals. Replace them if you want to... or they're out of spec.
Reason not needed: I've heard some stories about this... so here goes. Some people say you pick up a LOT of compression (the majority) by putting new side seals in correctly. BUT new side seals have to be "clearanced". This means from the factory they come TOO LONG FOR THE SLOTS. What you do to clearance is put the corner seals in, then you pretty much have to eyeball the length of the seal and grind off material on the ends of the seals until they fit. I replaced TWO of my side seals on my rebuild. Why? Because from what Kevin (from RR www.rotaryresurrection.com) tells me is one of the most common mistakes for newbies is screwing up the clearancing. And believe me I know he isn't kidding, it sounds easy but it's much harder than you imagine. You can physically end up getting the seal to FIT, but then when you push on it a certain way it will BIND against a corner seal. HORRIBLE. So unless you have faith in being VERY good and patient with sanding down the edges of the seals evenly and at the exact angle to match the corner seal, without disfiguring the seal from putting pressure on it... then I'd also recommend you re-use your original seals. Assuming they're well within spec and weren't damaged during removal, which is common. They seem to wear very little... mine were all perfectly in spec. The reason I had to replace two was because before I found out about clearancing, I used two of my old ones to clean carbon out of the grooves. If you want to do that, order new ones and use those to clean out the grooves! ;P If these are in spec, you don't really need to replace them. BUUUUUT, IMPORTANT! You need to put them back where they came from!! They are the exact size of the groove you took them out of, so DO NOT LOSE TRACK OF WHICH ROTOR/SIDE EACH CAME FROM.

Corner, Side, Apex - Springs. They're inexpensive... replace them. Use the FD corner seal springs also, there is NO REASON to use the old ones.
Reason not needed: You recently replaced them.

Oil Ring Inserts. Replace them with Viton available from Atkins and such... be CAREFUL because you can break the rings themselves when you're trying to install them! The viton inserts are very tight fitting.
Reason not needed: You recently replaced them AND didn't remove them from the rotor when you disassembled it.

Oil Ring Springs: Replace them if you've got the money.
Reason not needed: I didn't replace mine... they were within spec and worked fine, and they're kind of expensive for springs. Make sure you have the right ones, they are specific to the rotor and rotor sides.

Corner Seals. Replace them if you feel like it.
Reasons not needed: Just looking at them you can tell they don't get much wear. They're most likely within spec. One side will be worn, make sure that side goes out because the other side has probably been scored a little from the spring. I installed SOLID corner seals on my rebuild because I liked the idea much better... and I'm not sure why Mazda didn't do it that way.

Corner Seal Plugs. Replace them if you feel like it.
Reasons not needed: General concensus is these are useless really... they make it easier to put the apex seals in right? That's about all I've heard about them. Atkin's solid corner seals don't need these... so if you're replacing them you might just want to go that route and save a few bucks.

Stage 3: Apex seals

This gets its own stage... the apex seals are the main wear part obviously and NEED to be replaced in a rebuild.

3mm Apex Seals. Machining out the grooves to fit 3mm seals. The general concensus on that SEEMS like, MAYBE it's better for extremely high boost applications. But there are downsides to it to. Read up on it... it's expensive to have it done... and the people that can do it RIGHT are few... so be wary of that too.

2mm Apex Seals by Mazda. Generally accepted as the best! I have heard that they really are the best quality and last the longest... but Mazda keeps changing up their style and how many they make... it's apparently hard as hell to get your hands on some at all! Anyway, I didn't do much research on them either... there is information out there on what style of seal they're using as of late and how much they're running. Normally expensive as hell.

2mm Apex Seals by Atkins. Stock size, two piece seals. Atkins is trusted as basically almost equal to OEM quality. If you're looking for reliable, they're tried and trusted. Pretty good pricing.

2mm Apex Seals by RA. Stock size, two piece seals. They are made and then the corner piece is cut off, which means you cannot mix the corner pieces from different seals... so they're stamped with matching numbers. People seem to find these seals as very good... they supposedly will even take turbo detonation and SURVIVE. I've heard quite a few stories about someone detonating, the motor showing signs of having blown a seal... waking up the next morning and all is back to normal and perfect. Supposedly because of how they are made they don't break, they just flex from the detonation... and then flex back when they cool down. I don't know if this is true at all... I chose RA for my rebuild because they seem like solid seals and I was really happy with how they worked... at least while I had them. I will order them again when I need some unless I hear some major horror stories from long term use. Otherwise... these are in the "testing" stages and the outcomes are looking good so far. And they are obviously priced to "beat" Atkins seals... being just slightly cheaper.

Carbon Racing Apex Seals. 1 piece seals, use only one spring. I know Racing Beat sells them, I don't know anything else about these... would like to know more, so if anyone wants to add their $.02 go ahead for this one. They seem fairly inexpensive... not like the ceramic seals.

Ceramic Apex Seals. 1 piece seals. As far as I know, pretty much for short term extreem boost applications. I don't think they're made to last very many miles. EXPENSIVE AS HELL. But apparently unbeatable in sealing abiility.


Reason not needed: You recently replaced them. If you are re-using seals remember you HAVE TO keep track of which rotor and where on the rotor the seal came from. My seals, even though every part of my engine was at the highest "within spec" measurement, were at the lowest "within spec" measurement. So I probably COULD have used them but they wouldn't last long obviously. But replacing them SHOULD be the BASIS of the rebuild... if nothing else gets replaced, these should be.

Stage 4: More expensive parts!

Rotors. Probably don't need to be replaced. BUT, you need to spec them out. You could damage your new apex seals if the grooves are worn, you could waste your new seals because the various grooves are V'd and won't seal. Depending on N/A, TII, S4, S5 the prices vary a lot... S4 tends to be common and S5 tends to be rare used. Both are expensive as hell new (~600$ each)
Reasons not needed: Everything is within spec.

Rotor Bearings. These have to be pressed out to be replaced. If a good amount of COPPER is showing (Approx 15% is a floating # I heard) then replace them. If you don't see any copper, dont worry about it. They're kind of expensive too... but if you need them, shell it out.
Reason not needed: Within spec and no copper showing.

Eccentric Shaft. If your engine was running fine it's probably not damaged. If one of your rotor bearings is well worn, check it carefully for being within spec. I didn't see any copper on my bearings and my engine ran fine, so I didn't even spec the E-shaft on my engine, there's no reason it shouldn't be in spec and it's a PITA to spec it. You can find used ones all over for not THAT much... new one is expensive as hell of course.
Reason not needed: Within spec, never experienced bearing failure.

Housings. First off, if you have an S4 with 150k or more, your housings are probably very worn and you should consider replacing them... a lot. If you don't, you could be rebuilding again sooner than you want. BUT new apex seals will probably help make up most of the lost surface as well, so they probably will seal fine... for a time.
If you have an S5, spec them... take some pictures and ask around whether they should be replaced. Mine from an S5 N/A were within high-spec standards and they were HIGHLY re-useable. Too bad one is now a show-piece. ;( New housings are expensive as hell, ~$600 like the rotors themselves. Used ones aren't as easy to come by as used rotors... the housings wear more so most used ones aren't useable. But if you can find used ones with low miles it's MUCH much cheaper.
Reasons not needed: Within spec.

Irons. Like the housings probably don't need to be replaced... but spec them and that will give you an idea. The one thing you REALLY REALLY _NEED_ to look for on irons is TINY TINY hairline fractures in the wall between the inner coolant seal groove and the coolant passages. They are very thin walls with lots of pressure on them, and they are the source of endless headaches for people who rebuild and end up still having the coolant leak (smoking) they had before the rebuild. They're FAIRLY cheap used all over the place... new they're expensive as a housing. But used is probably fine... just don't get one with extremely excessive miles.
Reason not needed: Within spec.

Stationary Gears. This isn't really something people replace I don't think. Maybe for race application... but mine were perfectly fine and they are very sturdy so unless there was something that could have caused the teeth to chip or crack then I'd leave them alone.
Reason not needed: They're fine.

EXTRA STAGE! (I so couldn't help myself...)

Oil Metering Lines. No doubt you'll break one of these. It seems to be without fail. Your options are buying new crappy plastic ones for expensive as hell; buying steel braided replacement lines for less than the plastic ones cost... scalliwag performance sells them on ebay all the time for 90$/set; you can make your own for like 8$ in parts. There is a thread SOMEWHERE around here that explains how... and you even get see-through line so you can tell it's working. Wish I'd gone that route... but I got the stainless lines. Impossible to tell if the OMP works or not this way though.
Reason not needed: You somehow managed to not break those pieces of crap! Even then I'd say replace them because they're probably old and brittle... you don't want one cracking during re-install and causing a leak after all your hard work putting the engine back in the car.

5/6th Port Sleeve Inserts. Pineapple Racing sells inserts that go into your 5 and 6 port sleeves (the part that turns to open the port) which make a ramping effect for the air to flow in, instead of just hitting a WALL and expecting the air to bend 90' instantly. They are rumored to give a horsepower or two... if installed correctly it is unbelievably unlikely they'll come out. Some people claim they'll fly out and destroy your engine. Well, Pineapple Racing guarantees that won't happen... if you ship your sleeves to them and they install the inserts FOR FREE when you buy them.
Reason not needed: You don't feel like having them.

Block Off Plates. It's a good time to get some block off plates for your intake emissions if your state doesn't suck like California.
Reason not needed: You live in California, or don't want horsepower.

Injector Cleaning. You need to do this. Send your injectors to be cleaned for about 12$/per at www.witchhunter.com (Haha yeah I'm a ***** advertising for them, but they did an awesome job with mine and deserve it.) they replace everything, including the o-rings. So the ones you get in the soft seals kit are just extra.
Reason not needed: You recently had them cleaned.

Injector Grommets. No one told me about this one... damnit. There are little rubber grommets that the injector nozzles sit on, to seal them... well, those tend to get old and hard with age... un-reusable. They don't come in the soft seals kit even though they should... and they don't come with injector cleaning. Mazdatrix sells them. Another solution is making them out of small cuts of fuel line hose. I did this... but I'm REALLY wary of it... so now that my engine is apart again I'm using the actual grommets instead.
Reason not needed: If yours are still soft, use them. When they get hard they won't seal, and they won't go onto the pintle cap without breaking it.

Vaccum Hose. !!!! I replaced ALLLLL of the vaccum hoses on the entire rats nest in my rebuild... it took FOREVER and about 25ft of hose.. probably more, I can't remember exactly right now though. Be CAREFUL not to break any of the brittle plastic pieces on various air actuators and such... you'll probably break a few anyway. I found the ones I broke at the junkyard easily.. otherwise you might ask around if anyone can sell you one. New they're unbelievably stupid expensive for what they are.
Reason not needed: You don't want to deal with the hassle and want to gamble that all the hoses are fine and won't be causing a vaccum leak. Sucks if you lose that bet.



Okay I'm exhausted that's all for now.

If I'm forgetting anything let me know... I tried hard not to forget any of the small things but there are lots of them.

And check out WWW.ROTARYRESURRECTION.COM for your rebuild! You'll spend a fortune more doing a rebuild yourself than if you just send it to Kevin and have him do it RIGHT and FAST for you. The only reason you should rebuild yourself is for the EXPERIENCE, not to save money. If you've never done it before, you won't save money learning.

Kevin is a great guy and helped me a LOT (you wouldn't believe the number and length of PMs...), even though it technically takes away HIS business when I'm doing the rebuild myself!

--Gary

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Copied this thread to the archives. Also, I deleted all the unnecessary clutter. Great thread...