Help me keep my 20b cool in sunny florida..please!
David, I don't have a 20B installed but on my MB, i initially used the 3 piece 99 undertray.. but after installing it, I realized it was useless.. What I ended up doing was use the 99+ OEM single piece undertray and then used the 2 side pieces from the 99 3 piece and then R magic 99 bumper oil cooler ducts. The foam from the 99 oem piece could be removed to place it under the rad and that will help push the air thru the radiator more.. Also, now I can't see thru my bumper and see the ground..
I thought it was useless as I didn't see any side coverage for the radiator and air could just pass right thru. I ended up taking it off and put the OEM 99+ tray back on for the center section as it seem to channel the air better. And used the 99 3piece sides because I'm running an aftermarket bumper. If I were using 99 (or plateless 99), I would just stick with 99 tray, 99 brake ducts, and R magic oil cooler ducts.. Only thing I'm not sure is since you are not suing stock subframe, what I've mentioned might not work as it might not bolt up.
David,
I thought it was useless as I didn't see any side coverage for the radiator and air could just pass right thru. I ended up taking it off and put the OEM 99+ tray back on for the center section as it seem to channel the air better. And used the 99 3piece sides because I'm running an aftermarket bumper. If I were using 99 (or plateless 99), I would just stick with 99 tray, 99 brake ducts, and R magic oil cooler ducts.. Only thing I'm not sure is since you are not suing stock subframe, what I've mentioned might not work as it might not bolt up.
I thought it was useless as I didn't see any side coverage for the radiator and air could just pass right thru. I ended up taking it off and put the OEM 99+ tray back on for the center section as it seem to channel the air better. And used the 99 3piece sides because I'm running an aftermarket bumper. If I were using 99 (or plateless 99), I would just stick with 99 tray, 99 brake ducts, and R magic oil cooler ducts.. Only thing I'm not sure is since you are not suing stock subframe, what I've mentioned might not work as it might not bolt up.
My plan of attack is as follows:
1) Install the 3 piece undertray and drain one gallon of coolant and replace with distilled water. Measure temps and see where they are at. Tweakit Racing suggested the coolant/water idea. Said it will make a 5 degree celsius difference and won't negatively impact the car in FL. If I were 5 degrees cooler right now, that would put me at 95 max and I would be cool with that (pun intended).
2) Inspect for any air passages and fix as appropriate. Might need to craft a duct or two for the radiator. I have the 99 spec brake ducts on the car but I might need oil ducts. Oil temps are lower on the car than water as it is, by about 15 degrees celsius.
3) Mount the two radiator fans to a metal shroud and install on the back of the radiator so all radiator air has to be pulled through the fans and none can get around the fans. I've seen this done before and I think it works. My fans are high CFM ones so I think they are good to go.
4) If the above fails, leave the keys in the car and claim it as an insurance loss. Buy an Audi R8 and drive. Kidding about this of course
Any other ideas?
I really need to get another camera. David I have a custom built under tray that I bought from RedRx7 6 yrs ago. It's a nice 1/4" thick aluminum piece that's pretty light weight and doubles as a skid plate. RedRx7 sold it to me along with some other items back then when he decided to go with an Acosta Racing 3 rotor build instead of the Alamo Rotary version. Rxman720b (aka Derrick) also has the same thing that I do as his conversion was built at Alamo Rotary. The undertray I have covers just the center radiator section and will work with your Pettit racing Subframe. You will still need to properly duct around the radiator to eliminate air gaps. It perfectly fits the stock bumper. Now I do have a Mazdaspeed GTC bumper that I'm going to install. I did have to modify the forward section of the tray to fit the larger mouth of the GTC. You would have to do the same with your 99spec bumper.
I really need to get another camera. David I have a custom built under tray that I bought from RedRx7 6 yrs ago. It's a nice 1/4" thick aluminum piece that's pretty light weight and doubles as a skid plate. RedRx7 sold it to me along with some other items back then when he decided to go with an Acosta Racing 3 rotor build instead of the Alamo Rotary version. Rxman720b (aka Derrick) also has the same thing that I do as his conversion was built at Alamo Rotary. The undertray I have covers just the center radiator section and will work with your Pettit racing Subframe. You will still need to properly duct around the radiator to eliminate air gaps. It perfectly fits the stock bumper. Now I do have a Mazdaspeed GTC bumper that I'm going to install. I did have to modify the forward section of the tray to fit the larger mouth of the GTC. You would have to do the same with your 99spec bumper.
from the back plate
to the water pump.
top of the radiator... yes, i know about the radiator hoses.. im moving them sometime this week.
side of the radiator.
the oil coolers are ducted all around
from the intercooler to the back of the radiator. i left that lil opening for extra air flow
a better picture
my new wheels
to the water pump.
top of the radiator... yes, i know about the radiator hoses.. im moving them sometime this week.
side of the radiator.
the oil coolers are ducted all around
from the intercooler to the back of the radiator. i left that lil opening for extra air flow
a better picture
my new wheels
Okay, I understand. I've got the Pettit subframe so not sure your combo will work but I will fab up something for my car.
My plan of attack is as follows:
1) Install the 3 piece undertray and drain one gallon of coolant and replace with distilled water. Measure temps and see where they are at. Tweakit Racing suggested the coolant/water idea. Said it will make a 5 degree celsius difference and won't negatively impact the car in FL. If I were 5 degrees cooler right now, that would put me at 95 max and I would be cool with that (pun intended).
2) Inspect for any air passages and fix as appropriate. Might need to craft a duct or two for the radiator. I have the 99 spec brake ducts on the car but I might need oil ducts. Oil temps are lower on the car than water as it is, by about 15 degrees celsius.
3) Mount the two radiator fans to a metal shroud and install on the back of the radiator so all radiator air has to be pulled through the fans and none can get around the fans. I've seen this done before and I think it works. My fans are high CFM ones so I think they are good to go.
4) If the above fails, leave the keys in the car and claim it as an insurance loss. Buy an Audi R8 and drive. Kidding about this of course
Any other ideas?
My plan of attack is as follows:
1) Install the 3 piece undertray and drain one gallon of coolant and replace with distilled water. Measure temps and see where they are at. Tweakit Racing suggested the coolant/water idea. Said it will make a 5 degree celsius difference and won't negatively impact the car in FL. If I were 5 degrees cooler right now, that would put me at 95 max and I would be cool with that (pun intended).
2) Inspect for any air passages and fix as appropriate. Might need to craft a duct or two for the radiator. I have the 99 spec brake ducts on the car but I might need oil ducts. Oil temps are lower on the car than water as it is, by about 15 degrees celsius.
3) Mount the two radiator fans to a metal shroud and install on the back of the radiator so all radiator air has to be pulled through the fans and none can get around the fans. I've seen this done before and I think it works. My fans are high CFM ones so I think they are good to go.
4) If the above fails, leave the keys in the car and claim it as an insurance loss. Buy an Audi R8 and drive. Kidding about this of course
Any other ideas?
FYI: when i blew my coolant seal on my black FD, I drove approximately 200 miles home just watching my oil temp. Coolant temp got so hot, my PFC read 12X Celsius which pfc stop reading because it got so hot.. When I took the engine apart, no damage was done to the engine... except the coolant seal
bewtew, I also agree with Logan.. I think your AN lines to and from radiator look kind of small.. I think you might gain flow if you use stock rad lines..
If you continue to have issues, I guess you could mod the thermostat or go with electric water pump... Or get Mazmart water pump that suppose to flow better. I'll be installing one of those on my 20B project and my 13B-RE black FD project...
If you continue to have issues, I guess you could mod the thermostat or go with electric water pump... Or get Mazmart water pump that suppose to flow better. I'll be installing one of those on my 20B project and my 13B-RE black FD project...
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: Knightdale, NC
For what it may be worth, I use a Meziere electric water pump to take a little load off of the motor and to insure good water flow at low rpm's on my 3rotor FD. I use one of those NASCAR type standalone thermostat housings. They use volvo t'stats so you can experiment. Tried running without one and that did not work, coolant moved through the radiator too fast to be cooled. You can run without one if you use a restrictor.
Those are his pics posted above. He added a coolant line from the water pump to the back rotor and a bunch of ducting to achieve better water temps.
Phil, my issue is not with oil temps but with water. My oil temps are fine and consistently run 10-15 degrees celsius below the water temps. This is probably due to the large Gotham oil coolers I use and the fan attached to the back of one of the oil coolers. This puts me consistently in the low to mid 80s to at most 90 degrees celsius.
My issue is water temps. This summer on average I am seeing 95 degrees with the AC on and the temp creeps up to 100 on highway driving. This isn't the end of the world (no overheating at these temps) but I would like to see the water temps be as low as possible. So, an undertray to force the airflow up into the radiator is my first trick. I'll look at oil cooling ducting too but on first pass, mine isn't bad here.
Adding distilled water has been discussed with both Dan from Tweakit and Jesus from Kilo and they are good with this. We're talking about taking out one gallon of 50/50 mixture and replacing this with water. That means I will trade off 1/2 gallon of coolant for water. In a 2 rotor, the coolant capacity is 9 or so quarts so I am assuming in a 3 rotor the capacity is greater, maybe 10 - 12 quarts? So I will be replacing 2 quarts of coolant with water, leaving a mixture of 35% coolant to 65% water, which coincidently is what the FSM recommends for climates like FL. Am I missing something here?
Bewtew, your water pump mod is interesting. How did you think of this and is there any proof this will work or do you think most of your decreases are from proper ducting? I would think ducting would work at highway speeds but not in the city with stop and go traffic?
Phil, my issue is not with oil temps but with water. My oil temps are fine and consistently run 10-15 degrees celsius below the water temps. This is probably due to the large Gotham oil coolers I use and the fan attached to the back of one of the oil coolers. This puts me consistently in the low to mid 80s to at most 90 degrees celsius.
My issue is water temps. This summer on average I am seeing 95 degrees with the AC on and the temp creeps up to 100 on highway driving. This isn't the end of the world (no overheating at these temps) but I would like to see the water temps be as low as possible. So, an undertray to force the airflow up into the radiator is my first trick. I'll look at oil cooling ducting too but on first pass, mine isn't bad here.
Adding distilled water has been discussed with both Dan from Tweakit and Jesus from Kilo and they are good with this. We're talking about taking out one gallon of 50/50 mixture and replacing this with water. That means I will trade off 1/2 gallon of coolant for water. In a 2 rotor, the coolant capacity is 9 or so quarts so I am assuming in a 3 rotor the capacity is greater, maybe 10 - 12 quarts? So I will be replacing 2 quarts of coolant with water, leaving a mixture of 35% coolant to 65% water, which coincidently is what the FSM recommends for climates like FL. Am I missing something here?
Bewtew, your water pump mod is interesting. How did you think of this and is there any proof this will work or do you think most of your decreases are from proper ducting? I would think ducting would work at highway speeds but not in the city with stop and go traffic?
Sorry if this seems like a stupid question to some, but what do you think the direction of flow is in the line from the rear housing to the waterpump housing? My inclination would be that the coolant in that line has very little velocity at all being that it is seeing very similar pressures and velocities on both the inlet (rear housing) and outlet (waterpump housing) unless there is a tube helping to direct the flow in the waterpump housing. Does anyone think that this "loop-line" plays a significant role in cooling? If so, please explain your thoughts. Thanks.
David,
I'm confident that if all you did was add an undertray and ducting you'd be where you wanted to be. Obviously, the data to compare will be temps while moving to be sure.
Let us know what you do and the results, either way please.
David,
I'm confident that if all you did was add an undertray and ducting you'd be where you wanted to be. Obviously, the data to compare will be temps while moving to be sure.
Let us know what you do and the results, either way please.
Phil, my issue is not with oil temps but with water. My oil temps are fine and consistently run 10-15 degrees celsius below the water temps. This is probably due to the large Gotham oil coolers I use and the fan attached to the back of one of the oil coolers. This puts me consistently in the low to mid 80s to at most 90 degrees celsius.
My issue is water temps. This summer on average I am seeing 95 degrees with the AC on and the temp creeps up to 100 on highway driving. This isn't the end of the world (no overheating at these temps) but I would like to see the water temps be as low as possible. So, an undertray to force the airflow up into the radiator is my first trick. I'll look at oil cooling ducting too but on first pass, mine isn't bad here.
Adding distilled water has been discussed with both Dan from Tweakit and Jesus from Kilo and they are good with this. We're talking about taking out one gallon of 50/50 mixture and replacing this with water. That means I will trade off 1/2 gallon of coolant for water. In a 2 rotor, the coolant capacity is 9 or so quarts so I am assuming in a 3 rotor the capacity is greater, maybe 10 - 12 quarts? So I will be replacing 2 quarts of coolant with water, leaving a mixture of 35% coolant to 65% water, which coincidently is what the FSM recommends for climates like FL. Am I missing something here?
Adding distilled water has been discussed with both Dan from Tweakit and Jesus from Kilo and they are good with this. We're talking about taking out one gallon of 50/50 mixture and replacing this with water. That means I will trade off 1/2 gallon of coolant for water. In a 2 rotor, the coolant capacity is 9 or so quarts so I am assuming in a 3 rotor the capacity is greater, maybe 10 - 12 quarts? So I will be replacing 2 quarts of coolant with water, leaving a mixture of 35% coolant to 65% water, which coincidently is what the FSM recommends for climates like FL. Am I missing something here?
Sorry to intrude your thread, but FYI... when I first installed the PFC in my autox car (stock 13B and twins, stock radiator and running at 13-14 psi boost) I "discovered" that in hot summer days my peak temp at the end of a run could exceed 110 C. Now, I reach 90 C max. Main solution was turning on the rad fans at 86 C and at their max speed. So, they basically run all the time. Clearly, my application is a particular one, I cannot benefit from ram effect because speed is only 65 mph max, and the longest runs are only 60 sec. But it's all in second gear, high rpm and still a lot of heat generated.
As for the other points mentioned in other posts, just from thermodynamic, you should try maximizing water circulation speed, so, less restriction, big hoses (not those fancy AN lines), and more moving power, largest belt contact patch (an air-pump removal idle pulleys work the best because you don't have to tighten the belt and stress the pump bearings), high-flow and good impeller design pump (the stock one is known for cavitating at high rpm, which drastically reduces flow).
As for the water mix, theoretically more water would work better because of the higher heat capacity, despite of the lower boiling point. The latter can be compensated by pressurizing the system, by using a 16 or 20 psi cap. And localized boiling is not a problem and happens all the time. Actually, boiling water removes heat better locally (because a lot of heat is needed to vaporize water) provided there is good circulation to quickly remove vapor bubbles and avoid formation of a steady vapor film, which would drastically reduce heat exchange. In practical terms, I tried pure water (with water wetter) and different low mix with antifreeze and did not find any significant difference in peak water temperature.
- Sandro
As for the other points mentioned in other posts, just from thermodynamic, you should try maximizing water circulation speed, so, less restriction, big hoses (not those fancy AN lines), and more moving power, largest belt contact patch (an air-pump removal idle pulleys work the best because you don't have to tighten the belt and stress the pump bearings), high-flow and good impeller design pump (the stock one is known for cavitating at high rpm, which drastically reduces flow).
As for the water mix, theoretically more water would work better because of the higher heat capacity, despite of the lower boiling point. The latter can be compensated by pressurizing the system, by using a 16 or 20 psi cap. And localized boiling is not a problem and happens all the time. Actually, boiling water removes heat better locally (because a lot of heat is needed to vaporize water) provided there is good circulation to quickly remove vapor bubbles and avoid formation of a steady vapor film, which would drastically reduce heat exchange. In practical terms, I tried pure water (with water wetter) and different low mix with antifreeze and did not find any significant difference in peak water temperature.
- Sandro
Those are his pics posted above. He added a coolant line from the water pump to the back rotor and a bunch of ducting to achieve better water temps.
Phil, my issue is not with oil temps but with water. My oil temps are fine and consistently run 10-15 degrees celsius below the water temps. This is probably due to the large Gotham oil coolers I use and the fan attached to the back of one of the oil coolers. This puts me consistently in the low to mid 80s to at most 90 degrees celsius.
My issue is water temps. This summer on average I am seeing 95 degrees with the AC on and the temp creeps up to 100 on highway driving. This isn't the end of the world (no overheating at these temps) but I would like to see the water temps be as low as possible. So, an undertray to force the airflow up into the radiator is my first trick. I'll look at oil cooling ducting too but on first pass, mine isn't bad here.
Adding distilled water has been discussed with both Dan from Tweakit and Jesus from Kilo and they are good with this. We're talking about taking out one gallon of 50/50 mixture and replacing this with water. That means I will trade off 1/2 gallon of coolant for water. In a 2 rotor, the coolant capacity is 9 or so quarts so I am assuming in a 3 rotor the capacity is greater, maybe 10 - 12 quarts? So I will be replacing 2 quarts of coolant with water, leaving a mixture of 35% coolant to 65% water, which coincidently is what the FSM recommends for climates like FL. Am I missing something here?
Bewtew, your water pump mod is interesting. How did you think of this and is there any proof this will work or do you think most of your decreases are from proper ducting? I would think ducting would work at highway speeds but not in the city with stop and go traffic?
Phil, my issue is not with oil temps but with water. My oil temps are fine and consistently run 10-15 degrees celsius below the water temps. This is probably due to the large Gotham oil coolers I use and the fan attached to the back of one of the oil coolers. This puts me consistently in the low to mid 80s to at most 90 degrees celsius.
My issue is water temps. This summer on average I am seeing 95 degrees with the AC on and the temp creeps up to 100 on highway driving. This isn't the end of the world (no overheating at these temps) but I would like to see the water temps be as low as possible. So, an undertray to force the airflow up into the radiator is my first trick. I'll look at oil cooling ducting too but on first pass, mine isn't bad here.
Adding distilled water has been discussed with both Dan from Tweakit and Jesus from Kilo and they are good with this. We're talking about taking out one gallon of 50/50 mixture and replacing this with water. That means I will trade off 1/2 gallon of coolant for water. In a 2 rotor, the coolant capacity is 9 or so quarts so I am assuming in a 3 rotor the capacity is greater, maybe 10 - 12 quarts? So I will be replacing 2 quarts of coolant with water, leaving a mixture of 35% coolant to 65% water, which coincidently is what the FSM recommends for climates like FL. Am I missing something here?
Bewtew, your water pump mod is interesting. How did you think of this and is there any proof this will work or do you think most of your decreases are from proper ducting? I would think ducting would work at highway speeds but not in the city with stop and go traffic?
Sorry if this seems like a stupid question to some, but what do you think the direction of flow is in the line from the rear housing to the waterpump housing? My inclination would be that the coolant in that line has very little velocity at all being that it is seeing very similar pressures and velocities on both the inlet (rear housing) and outlet (waterpump housing) unless there is a tube helping to direct the flow in the waterpump housing. Does anyone think that this "loop-line" plays a significant role in cooling? If so, please explain your thoughts. Thanks.
David,
I'm confident that if all you did was add an undertray and ducting you'd be where you wanted to be. Obviously, the data to compare will be temps while moving to be sure.
Let us know what you do and the results, either way please.
David,
I'm confident that if all you did was add an undertray and ducting you'd be where you wanted to be. Obviously, the data to compare will be temps while moving to be sure.
Let us know what you do and the results, either way please.
i got the water pump mod from a few guys that are hardcore drag racers in puerto rico. . . the guys that do this mod to their cars told me that air and gases stay in the back plate and it causes the engine to run hot. i can call them and find out exactly how it works but all i know that it dropped my temps by at least 5*
So that said, do you have any tubing internal to the waterpump housing that helps guide/streamline the flow or is it just tapped in at the 90 that we see from the pics?
Thanks for sharing. Please spill any other info that you have on the mod.
Chewing on Tarantula
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
From: Canada
For engine temps I double wrapped all of my exhaust, added a turbo blanket and layed my intercooler down flat. Steady 86-88 under all driving conditions except idling in traffic the temps slowly climb to 90-92 over a 10 min period. Oil temps got rid of the R1 coil coolers and replaced them with two fan assisted units. Oil temps are steady@ all driving conditions 85-90 but I'm going to add two more with out fans that will flow air while moving..hth..