Check out this cheap piece of crap. http://www.ebay.com/itm/60MM-Turbo-S...131609&vxp=mtr

At these prices, I could get two! Maybe that's a good idea? I'm turbo stupid so that's what's kept me from going turbo right from the start.

 

I need opinions. Should I keep this project going or abandon it to swap in a 13B and turbo?

I'm thinking all the mods to make the 20B fit have taken away from the car ie the modded main crossmember is weakened - will it hold up in cornering? The front motor mount crossmember is poorly made and you should NEVER let the weight of the engine contact the frame rails! It pulls them down and tweaks everything over time. What was I thinking?

All I'd need to go turbo 13B is just a new main crossmember and a tall radiator so the GSL-SE oil cooler can still go out in front in the stock location. Oh and big plus is I'd have room for an intercooler! Already have the turbo-ready fuel system with 5/16" send and return lines. Already have the GSL-SE tank and a walbro 255 as well. Already have the right clutch parts and a decently strong NA tranny.

Another problem with the 20B in the car is how far forward it is. All other 20B 1st gens have had the engine go rearward. Now I see why.

I've wrapped my brain around fitting a radiator up front in the "20B" position and to be honest there is only enough room for a short 1st gen radiator, which really isn't all that much surface area. I'd only be able to use two 10" electric fans. Having already tested these fans on a short 1st gen rad, they are inadequate even for a 13B. The setup in my baja ran hot so it's getting upgraded to a TALL 1st gen radiator and a 16" electric fan. It's the only solution that I know will work, especially considering it has a beehive and they came stock with these tall rads. Might even be big enough for a turbo back there? I'll have to get it running NA first.

So if the biggest rad I could fit in front of the 20B in its current position is the short style, it's no better than swapping the 20B back into the GLC because I've solved the cooling issues it had with a short rad, ever since getting a clutch fan on it. Now it runs cool enough even with a beehive and a short rad. Imagine that?

The way I see it, I have about three choices right now:
1) get an FC or FD
2) relocate the 20B further rearward like everyone else
3) swap it back into the GLC

Each choice has some pros and cons. Choice 1 obviously takes money, time and effort since I don't have an FC or FD lying around, no money and franklty lack the experience on these cars. Well, I have a tiny bit on the FD and it told me to stay away.

Choice 2 takes time and effort and a lot of thinking. Gotta redo everything about how the 20B is in there. I thought I had solved all these issues before beginning this project, but once I got it physically installed, it looked out of place, like way too forward. I covered for it by saying it looked good but I was just lying to myself and you guys. Even reading through this thread, my words read like someone under stress. That was me, last year. I apologise for that.

Option 3 is a bad idea at this point because the GLC now has a nicely built 13B with a nicely built custom header flowing into a nicely built 2.5" exhaust. Nice and quiet too! The tranny tunnel is all patched up and passes the 20-20 test. The fuel system, while still mostly backwards compatible with EFI, is happy with a low pressure carter in there right now. And most of all, it doesn't run hot! But because of this, it is a pretty strong candidate for the 20B still, because it's actually got more cooling capabilty than the FB at this point, with its actual clutch fan. But the mods to get the 20B back in there are numerous and heart wrenching to perform. Man it was a total hack job to get it in there before. In a way it was a blessing in disguise that I hadn't yet solved the cooling issues which prompted the 20B to come out. I only later solved them on a 13B, and after the second attempt (the first was without a thermostat so it ran at 150 degrees most of the time! Not recommended).

To sum up the FC/FD choice isn't on the table at this point as there is no more room here to bring any cars over/no more money left in the budget/no real desire to learn a new chassis etc. The second choice is likey if I'm willing to tear everything back out and start over. To be honest I'm mentally there already -- the tear everything back out part. The 3rd choice probably shouldn't be explored if I can help it. I mean how will I extract the power I'm looking for in the GLC's chassis as it currently sits? I'd need another rearend and a stronger clutch which would require a total redo of the pedal itself (long story). Plus the chassis will have been weakened by the tranny tunnel cutting mods which I'm not sure I'd be able to strengthen back up adequately. And the current engine is a 74 ported 13B that could accept a 5" Camden. But it runs and drives well enough already on a stock carb, so no real need. The brakes, the steering, the suspension all would need upgrading if I sought more power.

The GSL-SE brakes, steering and suspension are all good enough to let me have a little fun, so that's a plus. Then there are more upgrade options when needed. Bigger rims/better tire choices than on the early bolt pattern etc.

Interesting note. I measured the distance from the waterpump nut to the rad in the GLC today. It's just shy of 7". Then I measured the 20B and imagined where the rad might be. I only had 6". So technically I only need to move the tranny back 1" right? Well, I have about 2" of space between the secondary injector rail and the heater core hoses.

So If I only went rearward 2", I could still run a heater core, the oil filter is still accessible (can probably still get a hand on it), the mods (cuts) to the tranny tunnel will either be unnecessary or just a minimum, which I'm prepared to do. And this 2" of space just might allow some intercooler piping to squeeze past the rad while still allowing a clutch fan to fit. I would feel SO much better if I could get a clutch fan in there. Especially if I go turbo. Heck I'd go turbo in a heartbeat if I can get the engine slid back successfully. I mean why not? I found some cheap wastegates which was really the only missing piece from this turbo puzzle, other than an intercooler which wouldn't have fit before. But we'll see.

Ok, I'm going to study pictures of 20B 1st gens for engine placement. Any ideas you guys have and are willing to share are more than welcome. Thanks.

 

Go with #2 and keep the project alive!!!!
Think of how good it will feel once its done. That thing has the potential to be a monster!

There are always solutions to the little problems.



May I ask why you feel that this is an issue? The stock engine is supported by the frame rails.. While I agree that it would be best to keep the engines weight in line with the strut top, it cant be that dangerous to move it forward a little, can it?

Cheers,
Alex

 

No the engine is supported by the crossmember which mounts under the frame rails, so all the engine's weight is transfered down to the ground. It never comes in contact with the frame rails.

If I redo all this stuff to keep the 20B in the car, I'll have to do something like what stokrx did by welding some square or rectangle tube to the crossmember. I'll then have to chop out the front crossmember (I'm ok with that).

If I commit to keeping this project alive, it may be some time before it's up and running. But I think I have a few ideas already. I could use a 12A 1st gen pan this time because its sump is shorter than the R5 I used before, and it's flatter for a longer distance, thus allowing me to move the engine back potentially as far as necessary without needing to change the crossmember. I'll have to explore the idea a little first.

I wonder how far back I can go before I'll need to cut the tranny tunnel. Anyone know? Remember I've got an NA trans in there, so the slave cylinder/clutch fork is in the usual NA spot.

 

LOL. You need to think about that idea a little while longer.

 

The engine's weight is supposed to go from the motor mounts into the crossmember, then into the suspension and down through the tires into the ground. The engine's weight never comes in contact with the frame rails. What's difficult to understand about that?

 

Everything hangs off the strut tops.

Frame rails are suspended by the strut towers, therefore the crossmember and engine are suspended by the frame rails.



The crossmember/engine mounts are most rigid when in line with the strut tops, as thats the way it is reincorced and meant to be but moving it forward a little shouldnt be too bad.

 

I see what you're saying. I'm just worried that over time the somewhat high weight of this engine will cause problems and I wanted to prevent it. But I think the best move here is to give up and let the project go as is. I'll let it drive me instead of how it's been going since last august/september when I started; me driving the project. I't feels good to let go.

So come what may, I guess is the old saying. I'll keep the 3" exhaust in the car. It has the side benefit of keeping compatability with the turbo. This frees up the RB long primary "streetport" exhaust to go in the other FB, saving ample amounts of time and some cash in the process. It also frees up the one presilencer to go in the REPU along with its mate to build a true long primary in a vehicle that can really use the torque. A long primary isn't strictly necessary on the 20B as I have a feeling it will have loads of usable torque in a 1st gen. And the turbo compatability sounds good to me. Just gotta figure out the cooling system first, but I'll let it tell me what to do/where/how to mount it rather than force a big expensive dual pass aluminum radiator in there like stokrx7 did.

 

Hey bud. Im the friend that has done most of the fab work from Dave's project 20b into first gen. Id look through Dave's post and see whats been done and run from there.. It really wasn't that hard, sits in a perfect spot and there's plenty of room for everything.
I can sympathize about having to do it all again. Yah it sucks, but the rewards will be bigger than Ben Hurr. Its about getting the motivation back.. Go to the drags once your winter thaws and watch the 20b's racing, that always seems to work for us.

Goodluck.

 

Nice work on that car. Wish I had access to better tools over here to make better looking welded etc.

I appreciate the encouragement. Something else that encourages me is the way they installed this 20B. http://www.screamingtyres.com/?p=1592


See how far forward it is? But a radiator fits with twin fans. The waterpump is from an FD. I know those waterpumps aren't very good. The 20B version is the highest flowing followed by the S4 and S3/older as they're the same size. The S5 isn't as good as S4 but still better than FD. Well my 20B has an S4 T2 installed. Probably the best choice for me as they're easily replaceable, and my old 20B one had bearing slop so I swapped.

So that 20B is in the same position mine is in. I'm greatly encouraged by that. Another thing I'm willing to explore now is the long primary and skip the turbo all together. I mean why turbo it, right? I know T-von would encourage me to stay NA. So if I gotta stay NA to keep from breaking stuff or popping the motor (it's an early pre-letter series) might as well do the best NA exhaust I can think of, right? I've got the parts and the desire. Just lack decent weather but that's starting to improve around here.

If you're worried about excessive weight, don't be, The RB center section is lighter than my 3" center section. Adding one more presilencer will up the weight, but not by much if I mod it a little. Wow, I feel my passions coming back just typing about it. Also the 3rd straight pipe doesn't add any significant weight. As for the collector, I'll smash a piece of 3" medium wall tube and start to taper it down to 2.5". It's all the way in the back so 2.5" is ok. Then up into the powerpulse muffler. Yes the muffler is kinda restrictive as people say, but 84stock was able to make 227 on a Camden and Steve made 300 with an S5 turbo feeding it through a 3" pipe and exiting through two open tips. I can do the open tips too.

This is to be a daily driver so noise is a concern. Hence all the turbo talk earlier. But daily driver means it has to be reliable, so no turbo. Then how do you keep it from droning? By using pipe that won't let it happen. So maybe collect into 2.5"? we'll see.

It feels a little strange to decide on something. Butterflies in the stomach, and all that. Long primary, here I come!

 

What you've all been waiting for: how does it fit? See for yourself


maybe get a pipe down through there?


no heat shield on this car


uh oh, when the rearend comes down, the driveshaft touches the heat shield and is in the way of a 3rd pipe


just a shot from the other side to show I've got no clearance.


RB did a great job using the available space under these cars. It is possible to route a 3rd pipe in such a way as to not contact the driveshaft, but I do have a full 3" exhaust available, and I have another 1st gen that would really like the RB "streetport" exhaust if it were available...

What's the best choice here?

 

And now the 3" exhaust components, so you can see what they look like.


The collector. I need to correct the angle a little.

 

I think that screaming tyres is a little further back than your, not as far back as daves though.
You could always run an electric water pump and blank off the pump section. Would work just as good if you have little room. Hell take the housing off altogether and run a small plate and dash fittings for the water in/out and run a side mount alternator.

Oh btw, I only used a stick welder on the steel parts, think crossmembers F&R and even the ex manifold. Your lucky the steering box is on the wrong side of the car(or is it right side) hahaha Oh what fun it is to try and pass 3 large runners and 3.5" exhaust pass the steering box!! hahah

Rob

 

It looks like the engines are in the same spot. Notice the distance from the LIM to his heater hoses, which are custom and don't curve as sharply as stock.

Nice job on the welds. I'm sure they're very strong.

I'm getting a radiator soon.

 

[QUOTE=Jeff20B;11048237]It looks like the engines are in the same spot. Notice the distance from the LIM to his heater hoses, which are custom and don't curve as sharply as stock.
QUOTE]

Jeff, the screamingtyres install is further forward than mine. You can get the motor right back and still keep the stock oil filter location or run a remote oil filter and move the engine back even further( you'll loose heater lines)
Track down a FC turbo box, shorten the shifter extension, then it's game on.

 

I looked into it. My speedo cable is in the way! It pokes right out next to the filter. If I move the engine back I'll have to remote mount the oil filter.

Got a bit of an update. The fuel system is almost done. I swapped to 3/8" send line. Walbro 255 and a nice EFI filter are inline. There is also a pre-filter in front of the walbro. Maybe overkill? I know the pickup in the tank lets anything through so a pre-filter is a must.

All that's left is to plumb the stock fuel rails and wire the pump! I'll wait to wire the pump until the battery is relocated. Not sure where to put it yet... Spare tire well? I need more weight rearward, right?

 

FE Rx8 S1 oil pedistal, is your friend. You'll clear the cable with this

Move you battery as far back as you can, rear left.

So you going N/A or Turbo?

 

Gotta go NA. It's streetported; the power is in the ports.

I have enough parts to go NA like a long primary exhaust (kind of excited to get started on this).

The engine was intended to go NA while building the ECU so I never did the extra stuff that's needed for boost.

Everyone who's had some rotary experience on this forum recommends NA. They say it like this time and again: "Streetported NA 20B" We have T-von, DirectFreak, Karack, j9fd3s and several others whose names escape me.

The car was set up for NA as it's got an S5 NA tranny and 225mm clutch package. A turbo would require probably a 6 puck in this size. No current plans to upgrade the suspension and brakes - I know most tend to upgrade these at the same time when doing an FC or FD 20B swap which are usually 90% turbo, and even NA too.

One last and probably best reason: Very early "block" with the weak castings and weak shaft. Need I say more?

It took forever to come to this decision. But there it is.

The T72 is for sale. No one has bothered to list my FS thread in the 20B FS section so I'll mention it here. $300 Need more info, PM me.

 

I "this" close to cutting the RB long primary to prep it for the 20B. Then something stopped me.

 

Its a shame your doing all this work and leaving it NA. Will you be happy with 250rwhp? ok maybe a touch more, but still, its like having sex and your chic gets off half way and goes to sleep and you don't get your end away... hahaha.
Ok, so whats with doing that little bit extra to have a decent car thats well presented and can run a half decent number. It sounds like you have really lost interest in the conversion and want to just get it on the road.... Don't cut corners like not moving the engine because of a speedo cable and oil filter pedistal. Both are minor modifications. Moving the engine back will help things in many ways, like weight distribution, radiator clearance ect.
But hey, its your car, your conversion. Just don't get to the end and think, 'gees I wish I had just done this and that'.
I reckon you'd be lucky if you didn't bust your standard diff anyways. Not the strongest from factory.

Good luck with the rest of it.

 

Wow... tell us how you really feel. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Jeff seems to be building a driver, a really fun solid driver...3/4 of us on the forum would wet our pants just to have a blown 20b in our garages just to look at for inspiration, let alone get to put a running one in our cars. It doesn't always have to be "about a half decent number"...it can be about the experience and seat of the pants fun. There always time to revisit a build's shortcomings or change the vehicle's purpose...just sayin"

 

I'm glad something stopped me from cutting up the RB center section. I put it back up in the blue car. I think you need to be ready to look into the abyss before things become clear. What you see isn't always what you except to see. Or something like that. I was standing there, ready to pull the trigger and... didn't.

So I'll go with the 3" exhaust and the crappy header just to get it running. Then change later if needed.

I mean, who really knows how loud it's going to be anyway, right? They say the 20B runs quieter than a 2 rotor. So maybe you can get away with an NA 3" exhaust and it won't be stupid sounding like some 3" 2 rotors I've heard. There are less pulses per rev, so it's lower pitched, so more drone is the result. The 20B sounds quieter and much cooler (about 20% cooler).

I didn't feel good potentially ruining two perfectly fine exhaust systems just to test a theory. Maybe ten years ago I would have, but I just want to get it running now. It's been sitting long enough. Is that a cop out? Or finally coming to my senses? At this point I don't know. All I do know is this choice feels better than the other. So I'mma go for it.

 

As far as moving everything back...I was able to slide all my stuff to the rear by 3 inches. Some light massaging of the shift fork was necessary. as well as a couple love taps with the rubber mallet. But it fits. I think I have 2 inches between the oil filter and the fire wall.

Radiator is also easy to solve, a Griffin or other Aluminum tanked setup can be welded up to do what you need it to. Think FC radiator but slanting back

 

Youk now, lomber13 didn't move his 20B back at all. Infact his is a little further forward than mine. He used a T2 tranny and didn't shorten the shifter housing. This required his engine to go forward for his shifter to line up. He also found a way to add an intercooler way down in front and used a koyo aluminum rad for an FD I think.

So I wonder why mine isn't running yet?

 

Medium primary exhaust, anyone?