frisc

iTrader: (2)

what kind of managment you guys using? i was looking into the tec3r but my buddy told me it was like $3,000 for the whole setup ....and would my 13b harness work with the 20b? thanx

GTRay

Take a look at the Microtech LTX12 - comes in at half the price and runs the car on the factory sensors. Start with a new harness and trim it to fit. Just follow the directions and you won't have a problem. It's an Aussie product and is by far the most popular ecu over there. It doesn't have all the bells and whistles that some of the other ECU's have but that's not what it's meant to be either - it gets the job done and is fairly reliable at doing it.

Ray

str8ryd

iTrader: (473)

Tec3R here. If you look around you can get it for $2500 or so with everything needed for installation. It's an amazing set-up and HIGHLY recommended.


Check out Racepartswholesale.com I think...

patman

iTrader: (3)

ive always had good luck with the microtech

frisc

iTrader: (2)

thanks for the replys

hwnd

iTrader: (4)

I'm using Wolf 3D v4

REHarrison

i would have to agree with the microtech units, they are a great standalone

Attila the Fun

iTrader: (1)

There have been a couple of Tec3r units on eBay recently in the $500 - $700 range. I got one for my planned upgrade a few months ago for $1100. That's just for the ECU, though. DFUs and cables will cost me around $600 more.

streetRx7

iTrader: (5)

Or you can get a HALTECH E11....Also half the price of a tec3r...

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Mine's the Haltech E11 v2. Works great.

RETed

NO.


-Ted

ReZ311

iTrader: (4)

I'll sell you my wolf 3d v4+ for $700. I want this thing out of my damn garage.

synergy7

iTrader: (20)

Unless you have the money for Motec, go Wolf all the rest are just playing catch up. I was going to go with Microtech until I did the research on WOLF its just a better product:

Built in true wide band
data logging
125 rpm mapping points
numerous inputs
built in boost controller
Wolf can be configured to any vehicle (you tell it what it is running 2 cylinder -16 cylinder. Lets say you want to sell your 20b and go back to 13b (too much money) you can use the same computer, all the other computers are purpose built.

Ever time one of these EMS companies steps up their game it is because they are TRYING to keep up with the WOLF

Do the research Wolf is the closet thing you can get to Motec on the Market.

thetech

iTrader: (1)

This is just entirely inaccurate. The Haltech E11v2 I use on my 20B can be configured for any engine, and reconfigured, and then reconfigured again, as many times as you want by using your laptop. Same goes for any of the Motec units that support a 20B. In fact that the only EMS's that I know of which require 'purpose building' are the Microtech and the AEM RX7 application.

You must be a WOLF retailer or something

RETed

Hmmm...haven't done this in a while...


You think?
Sure likes to push Wolf crap but knows very little about the competition...


Playing catch up...
It's funny you mention that, but you also implied MoTeC is better.
So isn't Wolf trying to catch MoTeC?


I dunno what exactly what you mean by "built it", but most - if not all -
other EMS units support wideband inputs.


Again, very vague...
How fast does it sample?
How much memory does it have on-board?


Haltech resolution can go down to 100RPM's and variable...so?


Another vague statement...
Most - if not all - other EMS units have additional inputs.


Again, dunno what you mean by "built in"...
Again, most - if not all - other EMS units have boost control support.


Wrong.
Haltech has been doing this from almost day 1.
In fact, Haltech has been building user-configurable units longer
than Wolf has.


See above.
You imply MoTeC is superior, but you now say everyone else is trying to
chase Wolf?


If anything, I would count Autronic as being CLOSER to MoTeC than Wolf.
In fact, the founder of Autronic used to work at MoTeC.

Also, I don't think you've every heard of this brand called EFI Technology?
EFI Technology puts Wolf in the dirt...
http://www.efitechnology.com/engcontrol.html

And, just to keep this 20B specific...
I've never heard of a 20B being controlled by a Wolf unit.
Does anyone have proof of such a beast exists?


-Ted

t-von

iTrader: (8)

David Hayes did but had all sorts of problems and a lack of tech support. Personally I would love to use a wolf but his problems have turned me toward the more widely used Haltech.

Evil Aviator

Wolf was the first widely-produced EMS to have comprehensive Windows tuning and evaluation software. After years of Motec and Haltech marketing spin doctors using the "instability" of Windows as a sorry excuse for their outdated DOS software, they finally copied Wolf and updated to Windows. After that, Wolf didn't really have any advantage over the competition, and that continues today. Sorry, but it sounds like you only researched Wolf and Microtech. While it is true that Wolf makes a better EMS than Microtech, Wolf is still only a mid-level EMS manufacturer with products very similar to those from Haltech and Electromotive.

http://www.autronic.com/
http://motorsport.magnetimarelli.com/
http://www.pectel.co.uk/
http://delphi.com/manufacturers/auto.../highfunction/

It's been done.

Evil Aviator

$3,000 isn't bad for a race-quality EMS, wiring harness with sensors, ignition system, and trigger wheel. You do realize the 20B swap will end up costing you a total of $10,000 to $35,000, right?

bcool

Vems

frisc

iTrader: (2)

i know how much its going to cost i did my reserch. Money isnt a real issue i live with my parents and work at General Motors but on that same note i aint trying to spend $35k for a swap, I have money but i aint rich! I'm leaning towards the tec3r because it does look like a great system I'm just going to have to save up a little longer to get it... thats means until i get it i will have to drive my ford POS during the summer


.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Don't buy the Wolf. I had one and sold it - replaced it with the Haltech E11 v2. The Wolf was easy to use but has hardly any tuner support in the US and zero technical support. Wolf is from Australia. Good luck trying to get then to answer your questions and if the unit breaks (mine did) have fun shipping it back to Australia.

Evil Aviator is correct on the cost of the 20B swap. I personally haven't run into anyone that's done it for $10,000. Most spend at least $30,000 preforming the swap. Add it up: $4,000 for the engine, $2,000 for the rebuild IF you do it yourself, $1,000 for balancing the rotating assembly (don't have to do this but it's money very well spent), $1,000 for a stud kit and machining (see previous comment), $3,000 for the EMS and all peripherals, $2,500 for the 20B engine subframe, $4,500 for a turbo kit, $1,500 for an intercooler, $1,000 for oil coolers, etc. I'm already over $20,000 and haven't gotten to the fuel system or any of the many extras really required for the swap. And this is with you doing all the work. Add in labor and you can see how the bill easily exceeds $30,000.

Do your research now and save yourself the frustrations and heartaches many of us have already experienced. All of this is posted in detail on the forum. Let others (mostly myself) make the mistakes so you don't.

synergy7

iTrader: (20)

Yeah.. and you shouldn't have done it now, RETed

I was speaking in respect to Motecs price (but you couldnt figure that out for yourself RETed) Motec is just plain unreasonable with their prices (I feel WOLF is best for the price range)

And the irony is you are only proving my point, every thing Haltech, and others have done has been to catch up and out do the Wolf System.

As far as me pushing anything I am not a wolf dealer.

EFI Technology, but what does it cost??? I thought this was for a street car!

patman

iTrader: (3)

Mine was around 7k, but that was in an FC... I don't see why you couldnt do it in an FD for 9-10k.

Assuming that price range, an extra thousand bucks for an ECU is a big chunk of change...

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

^So (he says knowing he's wading into the middle of it) who is going to install, tune, and support the Wolf unit? Doesn't matter what the cost is if you can't get it installed and tuned correctly and if support is not there.

I had mega promises from Chris Green and his newly founded Wolf EMS USA. After one year he went AWOL with my money. Fortunately I got my car out from his shop before it was repossessed by his landlord. Out went the Wolf unit for a Haltech and I've never looked back.

The Wolf unit does have nice features (when combined with a data logger - not sure if this is operational now in the new version) and is easy to tune for the average guy. But, the average guy really needs someone else to do a professional tune and he really needs quick turnaround on support. You just can't get this with the Wolf. Now if I were in Australia, it would be a different story.

David Hayes

iTrader: (6)

Hmm, maybe this is possible if you use all used parts and don't rebuild the engine? Let's start a list and correct me where I'm wrong:

- Used 20B engine: $4,000 I split the difference between the $3,500 and $4,500 they seem to be running now days.
- 20B subframe: $1,670.00 from Defined Autoworks. This kit DOES NOT allow you to run PS or AC which to me, is kind of important. If you want this, then you'll need something like the Pettit/RX7 Specialties subframe which is $2,500. Let's split the difference and say $2,000.
- Rebuild the 20B: I guess you don't have to do this but what's the point if you don't? If you do it yourself, you can buy a rebuild kit from Atkins for $1,700. This includes all the seals and gaskets, rings, bearings, etc. but does not include the Apex seals. If you don't go ceramic, then metal OEM ones will run about $700, bringing the total for this to $2,400. This also assumes you'll do the porting yourself. If you are not comfortable with this, then it will set you back another $1,000.
- Balancing of the center assembly: $750. Again you don't have to do this, but why put the engine back together when it's not balanced. My previously "blueprinted" engine recently weighed in at over 45 grams of difference between the rotors - not good.
- Stud Kit: I contend this is a must do item. It eliminates the flexing issue for the irons. You don't have to do this, but it's a wise investment. $500 for the studs from Xtreme Rotaries and $500 for the machining for a total of $1,000.
- Now that you've taken car of the engine, you'll need to figure out the electrical system. You'll need new coils, wiring, and an EMS. You'll also need AMPs if you are planning on running boost above 14 PSI or so. Let's assume an average cost for the EMS of $1,600. Average coils (MSDs) will run about $600, and ignition amps are about $600 per unit. You could make your own wiring harness for about $500 I guess, bringing your electrical total to $2,700 WITHOUT the ignition AMPS. With them, plan on $3,900.
- Now you'll need fuel. You need at least one more pump and a fuel regulator. How about $500 for fuel items?
- How about a turbo? You could run the stock twins but not many people do. They'll get you to around 400 WHP so if you want more, then you'll need a turbo kit and an intercooler. A big cost of this kit is the 20B custom manifold. Plan on about $5,000 for all of this, including the piping you'll need to fab up.

So, what does this add up to? Somewhere between $16,600 without the balancing and stud kit and the extra ignition AMPs to $18,650 with the extras. And this is doing it yourself.

If you are like me and can't do it yourself, then labor will run at least in the $10,000 level. I think the cheapest I've seen the labor was from RX7store.net (something crazy low like $5,000 or $6,000). Most charge much more than this.

I've left off the list all the other items like water injection and suspension/brake work. You might want the safety of water injection to protect your investment and most do brake and suspension upgrades to keep up with the power of the 20B.

It's easy to see how you can get to $30,000 and above very quickly. Regardless of the cost, my 3 years' worth of conversion experience has taught me that very detailed planning and the correct selection of parts before beginning is the key to success.

Comments? Anything I'm off on or should be changed?