I'm doing a 20 B swap as well.. I guarantee I can do it for less than 15. I'm gonna be doing it all myself with the help of some friends. but I already have turbo components and will buy most of my parts used... Standalone, etc.. Estimated time for build.. I'm gonna give myself 10 months to a year. And i'll come back and let everyone know what the final cost ends up being.

But i'm only looking for 500 with as much tq as possible. Car use: Time attack/drift/street machine.

 

Guys, we've done quite a few swaps, and I don't know how many engine builds on these, and you are taking some serious shortcuts if it is not costing you money. Bare minimum the engine needs to be rebuilt and the e-shaft gone over with a fine tooth comb if you plan to make anything near 500whp and up. Too be honest it's so stupid easy to make 500-600-700hp on these engines you should inspect them anyway. By easy I don't mean just throw it in the car. I mean they just make power easily when setup properly. The stock trans will be fine for a good amount of time as long as you're not banging through the gears constantly.

To get a well built 20B usually will fall between $7-8.5k or more depending.
We sell our turbo setups for $4500 our subframe setup for another $1600.
That's 13.1-14.6k right there. Start adding fuel, clutch, ECU, IC, exhaust and all the other little odds and ends and it climbs quickly. I can tell you from all the ones we've done the bill has never been below $25k, with some approaching double that after bodywork, suspension, wheels, tires etc.

Could you build one on the cheap? Sure. A better question is why? If you have any issues with these engines it's expensive so why risk it.

No disrespect meant but other than Chris and I, I don't think anyone in this thread has actually invoiced and billed a customer on one of these builds and that is when you start to see the costs climb.

 

Zero there is a reason vendors and DIYers never see eye to eye on stuff like this. Your swaps are for paying customers that want a built project that's turn key and ready to go right now. We DIYers don't have the money to build a project of this magnitude right off the bat. Hell 99% of the forum members could only wish they had the money to throw on a project car like David Hayes did or your customers. That's not a real reality for the rest of us broke folks who have the desire and passion to build such a project. For us, we get very determined and research and find ways to get what we want (even though we can't really afford it). So it's ok for us to cheap out and start slow to get the project moving. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing a 20b swap in stages. Most single turbo conversions are done this way why not the 20b?. We don't have to go ***** to the walls the 1st time out like you vendors do with your top dollar paying customers. Your customers are expecting top notch EVERYTHING for the money they are spending. We can afford to wait because we are broke! LOL!

Me, I've had a fascination about doing the 20b swap since I 1st saw the Pettit Banzai in Sport Compact mag back in 98. I knew I had to have it, however, when I saw the final build tally, I damn near had a heart attack. I had already fell in love with the idea and knew then that someday (by any means necessary) I would have a 20b in a 3rd gen Rx7. Hell I didn't even have an FD at the time till I finally bought one back in Jan 03 (five years later). Four months later I was on ebay and saw a 20b FS. I was like "damn there it is". The next day out of curiosity, I called them and asked for the engine code. They said "D" series. Well the buyer impulse took over and I gave them my CC and bought it. I was now at the point of no return. From that point on, everything about my car was about getting that engine installed (research, this forum, you name it). I finally began the swap in Mar 07 after my engine blew. The engine I finally fired up the 1st time Nov 1st of 09. That's 6 years and 6 months after purchasing it. I still haven't driven it yet as I'm slowly sorting things out. I've never done anything like this before. With what I wanted to do with my project, I had to fab everything. So there was a ton of trial and error.

I just wanted to add this storey so some of the vendors would get an idea of where we DIYers are coming from.

 

Here is the list:
$3k for motor
$650 stud kit
$800 for new seals and springs including coolant
$800 for s400 turbo
$100 for 60mm wastegate (yes ebay) if the 7's rotary from Perto Rico can do it.
$1000 turbo manifold
$200 4 row intercooler
$250 intercooler piping
$200 downpipe
$450 for ACT clutch
$200 lightweight flywheel
$400 for injector
$50 for custom fuel rail
$400 for bosch 044 FP
$100 fuel filter
$300 fitting and fuel hose
$1350 microtech LT16
$300 msd ss blaster
$200 for oil cooler(aftermarket)
$200 e fan
$600 misc. It cost me $160 for my mount for my T2 but my cousin bought the hinson kit for $1200.
It toke me 5 month to complete the swap remember I had to wait 2 month for the clutch kit to arrive at my door.
OK add it up.

 

Eliminate anything used, or knock off. I can see a few already. The issue isn't wether it can be done, it's wether it can be done and done well. Here is a good example does your PR's who run the shitty copy gate run pump fuel or alcohol? We tune alcohol cars here all year long and rest assured, what we can use and get away with on those cars we can not on a street car on pump gas. It's almost like saying our 7 sec drag car doesn't need a IC so why should our street car. I had two 20b's eat e-shafts here simply because the customer stored them wrong and then built the engine without paying close enough attention, both spun centre bearings and to be honest you can run on a spun centre for quite awhile before you notice it. I'm not going to argue over it, I've done enough to know having a customer walk in here and say, "I heard you can build me a 600whp 20B car for under $20k" because the forum says so doesn't fly. I tell them sure if you build it and cut corners, lets hope you got all your stuff sorted because if anything breaks and damages anything on that motor it is expensive, have fun finding cheap centre plates or E-shafts.

T-von, I can relate to what you're saying. I have kids come in here all the time I literally give parts to simply to help them get their little project on the road, or I tell them "Why are you going to pay me to do this? Here is all you need to do." They are surprised by that, but I'd rather help get the car on the road and save the money for bigger things, than beat them up for labor on simple stuff they can easily do if shown how. Call me stupid but just seems to make sense to me.

~S~

 

Be carefull, not everything you hear is true


Thats awesome, and a good way of getting loyal customers

 

Different folks different strokes. You charge however you want but it is crazy to said you can't build a 20B 600rwhp for around $14-$20k. We all know no matter how badass your built is it is going to break regardless, there is NO such thing as a bullet proof motor. You can preach the choir and have people throw money at you but I opted to go by my budget. I can't complaint with the results I been getting, now just wait to see and learn what problems pops up.

 

^^^ that happens when you start with the wrong **** .... you might been thru alot but not everyone has to do the same

 

I'm a person that want to learn from my own mistake than others. I rather learned the hard way than sitting on my laptop reading how hard to do the swap or paid someone $35k to do it. Last time I looked we got our stock chassis 13B running 8.81 at 153mph so can some of the internet shop do it? Yeah I don't know what I'm doing my rebuilt is shitty because I don't charge an arm or leg? We have results can you said the same?

 

MY GF the in house voice of reason and I literally just had this same discussion tonight. She says I should charge more for helping someone install their engine. All I really did was stand there and point out a few things. I got 100 bucks and some beer. Plus the pleasure of putting another FC back on the road that had been sitting up for years. I think that's a win, and frankly would have done it for free just because I enjoy it, and he wasn't too proud to ask for help. Not that I do that often.

Now, as a shop owner ( albeit a small one) and someone who's mid 20B swap. Yes a 20B swap can easily exceed 25K I'm about half way there and pushing up on 12K. But I also don't pay retail for alot of things. and do my own work. for example I only paid 2000 for my engine C code because I import them from time to time for customers. So I have a connection, EMU Vi-Pec ..... can't talk about price. but needless to say it wasn't MSRP . I've made my own lines and fabbed up a few things as well. My rebuild was still around 1500 but rebuild parts are pretty high unless you do alot like Chris @ Banzai does or other high volume shops. And alot of the various Misc. parts I either distribute for or have purchased over the years because I knew this was coming and going to be expensive. And even with all the parts I've got I still need to buy a Subframe from Defined ( gotta keep AC it's hot down here in the summer) , and fab up a full 4 in exhaust with a flare to mount up to the BW S400SX4 I going to use. Transmission I'm somewhat torn about because I know I'll push the envelope, but it looks like I'm going to need either an upgraded gearset, or a T-5 swap. ( T-5 is much cheaper BTW even with straight cut gears. As well as upgraded Diff axles, twin plate clutch, tires, bushings, and racepack dash ( this is just to cut back on the cost of gauges because those would run about 1500 by themselves ) and the list goes on and on. But that said I once did the math and a super basic bare bones drop in swap and somehow retaining the factory twins and ecu. I estimated I could do it for 15K minimum. In short, your better off sending it to a shop or dropping it into an FC. Because any engine swap into an FD is going to be expensive especially This swap.

T-Von.... I'm totally with you on the DIYer bit.

 

I'm storing mine horizontal with nothing supporting the front. Is that ok?

 

I did 20B swap, including rebuilding the engine, making custom mounts, manifold etc in about 2 months....i did however had GT35R 13BT drift car to start with, so most of the stuff from 13BT setup was reused (clutch/IC/oil coolers/radiator/turbo/wg etc..)

I estimate cost of my swap somewhere around $2k (yes $2000) and thats basically just price of new Haltech PS2000 which i had to buy (and sell E6K). Every other part was either found in used parts bin or funded by selling old parts from 13BT swap...I got 20B in exchange for turbo vert which needed rebuild, paintjob, new top and didnt had title....

Once i will sell my old 13BT, i will be in green numbers => i will have more money AND 20B FC, than i had in beginning...

Of course, there were some corners cut and time will tell. On previous setup i did 5 years of racing and trackdays, with only fluids changes. If 20B setup will get me same 5 years, i am very happy about it.

So far, i am at first oil change now, car runs and feels strong, no boosting yet tho...
Yesterday we had first snow, not much driving this year, will tune for boost in spring...

 

No, take a length of 2x4 cut it in three sections and make two legs and a base. Drill a 2" hole in the base with a hole saw and you can stand your shaft up in that. I have made stands here that hold 4 shafts at a time. You could stand it up on end with the flywheel nut as a base but that is a bit risky and may get knocked over more easily.



This stuff kills me, you are so right on this. Guys in this thread like Chris and I that's what we do, we then shut down the shop for the day go home in our fancy expensive cars that were paid for with arms and legs and we strip off all our clothes and roll around naked in all our money, dreaming of the joys the next day at the shop will bring.

People always want to argue these costs and there is no convincing them otherwise because shops are overcharging on everything regardless. It's real simple people come in and pay for two things. Convenience and ability. The convenience of not having to deal with it themselves or the ability of others who can do it for them when they can not. Trying to compare how much it costs some guy to do it himself on a budget, in his spare time, accountable to no-one but himself, with shop doing it and HAVING to do it in a way that is accountable to others is silly, its similar to this example. Best price I ever paid for a FD? FREE. How many times did that happen? Can't even count anymore. Some for the dumbest reasons. So by the logic applied in this thread why bother paying for them? Just wait around and you'll get one too. Good luck with that.

~S~

 

35k sounds like way too much but....... you prob went over the 35k on your own mistakes ...

 

I have to agree with the do-it-yourselfers here. I absolutely believe this can be done for under $20k.

Rebuilt 20b- $7500
Clutch and flywheel-$800
Downpipe- $100 (cost of V Band flanges and clamps)
T70 turbo- $500
Wastegate-$400
BOV- $200
Turbo Manifold- $200
Radiator- $200
FMIC and piping- $300
Fuel system including injectors, rails, regulator, filter, fuel pump, KB boost a pump and lines- $2000
Megasquirt $400
Wiring Supplies $300
Block off kit $50 ( could easily make for basically free)
Boost Gauge $50
AFR gauge $200
EGT gauge $150
Stock Coils $free
Efan with Relay- $25
Engine mounts $10
Sway bar spacers $10
Air filter $50
Aux Injection $950

Total $14,395

We can even add an additional $1000 for shipping and driving around. Hell add $1000 for something I am forgetting.

We are still under $17k. (mind you this is a DIY affair on an FC)

Now with that said If I was going to do a swap for someone else I would charge no less than $30k, it is a **** load of work and I could see it taking an easy 100 hours to complete.

 

I would NEVER use Mega Squirt on a 20B .... Or really anything I wanted to make long term reliable power. But that's just me.

 

I don't think customers really have any idea what the cost associated with running a shop really is. I don't have anywhere near the amount of equipment I want to have or even a really decent facility in my opinion, and I know you and Chris have WAY more overhead than I do... Just taking a wild stab in the dark guys I doubt he's bringing home much more than most of the mid 30's crowd on here, and I say that because there are alot of engineers and science types on the board.

 

$200 for a manifold? lol must be made out of aluminum coke cans.. materials alone will cost $600 +.

i think if you're doing all the fab work and all the labor is manageable to keep it under 25k with some decent parts.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

Question. What's the reason for needing to store the shaft in such a way? Just curious. Thanks.

 

The shaft can warp and ultimately tear up your bearings .

 

It seems really reliable to me after testing with the jimstim. Do you have a particular reason for not liking it?

Damn engineers and science types...

Nope, Pepsi cans. Seriously, I just bought the flanges, and got the tubing on the cheap and a friend tig welded it for free.

 

After reading this thread to current..
I noticed three paths..

1) Vendors
2) Budget minded DIY
3) Larger Budget BIY

I think there is a big line drawn in the sand.. but dont count out little guys like Jamespond et all..
They'll build their sub-$20k FD 20b's and the first neg word thrown out in their face is "reliability".

Why? because of the lack of llc? b/s.. I bet a good number of these DIY'ers mic their parts more so than some vendors.. some of 'em simply can't afford to break parts due to stupidly so they use extra care.

anyhow, I'm +1 with the DIYer guys..

 

Stainless steel bends aren't that expensive. You can buy bend errors all day long on ebay. Flanges are cheap! It's what you know my friend.

 

Ok the shaft is supported on both lobes and the long end.

 

The problem is in the fact that those same DIY's act as if paying someone to do it and it actually costing money means those people are overpaying or being ripped off somehow. It paints a unrealistic picture for the guy who wants it done but can't do it himself.

Think about the order of events...

guy posts up he wants to do a 20B swap, implies he needs a shop to do it.

shop comes in and says it will cost you more than you think in this case $22k

DIY comes in and says no shop owner you're wrong I did it for less

Is the DIY guy doing it for free for the OP? no labor? only cost of materials? no fab time, no assembly time?

Can the shop owner say, "Hey I can sell you this used stuff, and there is some ebay knock off stuff we can use." ?

Don't think so, and probably not.

Yet he will insist the shop is wrong in it's assessment.

It reminds me of the guys a few years back on here who used to say, "Why are manifolds so expensive there's not much to it." Only to try and actually make one from scratch a few years later and post up, "Now I see why these cost so much, there is a lot of time involved in these." Suddenly a light goes off in their head hey maybe the shop isn't overcharging me.

You're comparing apples and oranges, and the problem is your trying to sell a orange as a apple to someone who needs the apple.

~S~