AJatx

iTrader: (1)

Calm down, Ted =o).

I have to agree with Ted on his comments.

Unless you already have a platform that is prepped for the 20B, you're going to have to do a lot of fabrication or purchasing of lots of parts (that aren't cheap).

Pushing back the firewall/driveshaft, etc is the most proper way of doing a 20B conversion if you want to retain the stock steering geometry.

The petit cradle pushes the steering rack into a new location and you'll have bump steer as a result.

I met the guy who installed the polished 3-rotor engine from either NZ or AUS. He ended up rebuilding it after it blew (I hear it may be due to a "lousy" rebuild).
So going back to a few people's comments about rebuilding the engine when you get it, it would be wise since you're throwing so much $$$ at it.

To answer the question of this thread:
1) You could use a Haltech and run ZERO split timing.
2) Run IG5 and igniter/coils (looking at least above $1k)
3) Run a Microtech for about the same price (contact Tito @ AlamoRotary if you'd like to purchase a unit)
btw, Tito's 3 rotor looks and sounds emmaculate!

Have fun fabricating the exhaust and other stuff.
There are a lot of details you'll need to work out (throttle cable, turbo placement if you're going single, coil/ignitor placement, etc).

J

AJatx

iTrader: (1)

Calm down, Ted =o).

I have to agree with Ted on his comments.

Unless you already have a platform that is prepped for the 20B, you're going to have to do a lot of fabrication or purchasing of lots of parts (that aren't cheap).

Pushing back the firewall/driveshaft, etc is the most proper way of doing a 20B conversion if you want to retain the stock steering geometry.

The petit cradle pushes the steering rack into a new location and you'll have bump steer as a result.

I met the guy who installed the polished 3-rotor engine from either NZ or AUS. He ended up rebuilding it after it blew (I hear it may be due to a "lousy" rebuild).
So going back to a few people's comments about rebuilding the engine when you get it, it would be wise since you're throwing so much $$$ at it.

To answer the question of this thread:
1) You could use a Haltech and run ZERO split timing.
2) Run IG5 and igniter/coils (looking at least above $1k)
3) Run a Microtech for about $1800 (contact Tito @ AlamoRotary if you'd like to purchase a unit)
btw, Tito's 3 rotor looks and sounds emmaculate!

Have fun fabricating the exhaust and other stuff.
There are a lot of details you'll need to work out (throttle cable, turbo placement if you're going single, coil/ignitor placement, etc).

J

Bitchn7

OK, as b4, all prices NZ
Also, I haven't included the cost of the car, I figure you would already have this.

Haltech $2500 or another $700 for IG5 or maybe Microtech but not my choice

Turbo kit $6000, XTR 700HP BB Garret, XTR 55mm Wastegate and manifold. Manifold is to suit 13B, but here in NZ we can make our own cheap anyway so can buy Turbo and wastegate separately.

I/C, I can get a 600x300x100mm Bar and Plate I/C for $1000 with tanks

$12000 engine rebuild. Seal and gasket kit alone cost $4000. There was porting, polishing detailing, mint 2nd hand Rotor and housing etc. this was built by Glenn monroe at Rotary Power NZ. he is one of the best engine builders in NZ (and one of the bloody slowest), he has probably sold more 20B's to the US than anybody and built more 20B's than anyone else in NZ. And yes, anybody can go to him and pay the same. Our 20B thats going into our 323 is going to be rebuilt for about $7-8000, with about $1000 polishing on top of that by my brothers boss. If you want to see a pic of the engine we already have had done to prove we have actually had this done, go check out the pics in the members section Bitchn7.

Exhaust, I would assume if you are inclined to put a 20B into a Bat that you wouls at least already have an aftermarket or custom exhaust. Still $1500NZ max> we had a twin system made for our JC Cosmo, 3" mandrel into two 2 1/2" pipes, stainless steel mufflers at the back for $900 retail (I pay less for the mufflers), straight 3" madrell all the way would have been even less.

No I have never done this before but, engine cradle? I am sure some custom engine mounts will do the job.

Clutch, Custom made here in NZ! We have a clutch on our Supercharged 13B and a customer with one on a race S4 13B Turbo, these are good for good for 500HP and I would retail that at $1k So an even stronger one wouldn't be much more, why spend $3K on OS Gieken etc??


Fuel pump $600, coils, get some off a crashed S6 or Cosmo, plenty around if you look hard enough, I happen to have a set even (20B)

Injectors, find some second hand 12A turbo injectors.

This is what I mean by you going overbaord, you don't have to go new everything, sure if you are loaded go for it (I am going to use all new purely as I can get it all at trade). Just curious, what is the average hourly rate charged by workshops in the US? It just seems that somethings are bloody exspensive when for a country that would have so much competition. Why can't the usual rotary workshops build a 20B?? ****, there are guys here in NZ building PP 20B's in their back yard (11.4 second 323 sedan converted to rear drive, road legal). Its not that different.

I don't want to **** anyone off, it just seems you guys are getting ripped off. But, this could be due to there being so many people in the US with a lot of money to spend, so they can afford to charge like a wounded bull knowing you can afford to pay and are willing to do so.
When my brothers boss does his Bat, i will see what is needed to be done, then maybe we should build an NZ made kit and sell it to you guys.

RETed

And upgrade fuel SYSTEM goes way beyond an upgrade fuel pump.&nbsp At 500hp, the stockl 8.5mm O.D. metal fuel like is becoming restrictive.&nbsp To do this RIGHT, you should be running a -6AN or -8AN SS line under the car to the engine bay.&nbsp An aftermarket FPR should be included ($120US, $300NZ), cause you need to TUNE the FPR for the application.&nbsp A Bosch 300lph fuel is BARELY enough to support 500hp - this is already $200US, $465NZ just for this fuel pump; we would normally run TWO of these on a high-power 20B turbo...

Stock coils are CRAP.&nbsp We were using a set of six FC trailings that were overpowered by the pair of MSD DIS-4 boxes.&nbsp This means SIX BRAND NEW coils.


Too bad we don't ANY of them running around - they were never brought into the country.&nbsp 720cc/min?&nbsp That only replaces the stock secondary fuel injectors (primary fuel injectors are side-feed) - 15% more capacity?&nbsp You're up to 350hp - you're still short another 100 or so hp with these fuel injectors.

Have you ever BUILT a 20B car?&nbsp It seems like your regurgiating a lot of crap from third part sources.&nbsp You have no idea what's involved with building such a beast, so why don't you admit you have no clue...

My input on this thread stop here.&nbsp It's a waste of my time arguing with someone who is "benchracing" without any direct experience in the matter.



-Ted

Bitchn7

Fuel Pump I suggested for a start was $600. i fucked that up, should be $900 and will support 600HP no worries (my supplier uses one of these on a 750HP N/A 5.7 Gen 3 Commodore). Fuel regulator, $200.
Fuel lines costs stuff all so put that in the bits and pieces price lists.

So after replacing the secondary injectors with 12A turbo injectors (850cc), this would only be good for 350HP? I find that hard to believe considering that the Cosmo is 300-320HP standard.

In NZ its not uncommon to add extra injectors (which can be sourced second hand) rather than buy large new injectors. This means you get better fuel control as yu run numerous small capacity injectors as opposed to a few large ones. Check out the pics of Lance Warrens 20B HB Cosmo on www.3rotor.com. Check out the extra injector set up, and yes this can be done without the $10mil worth of anidised fittings.
Ignition, the guy that built our 20B said not to bother changing the coils as they are very good. So going on his advice there.

As I said in my last post, i haven't done this (a highly modified 20B) before, but have a fair idea.
Quite frankly, all I was trying to say from the start was that you guys seem to pay a lot for the work you have done. Doesn't seem to be worth it when it can be done for less.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

our labor rate is $105 and hour. one of the other dealers in the area is $120 (!). i'm at about 6.5k usd in my 20b fc, it will be running with about another $1-2k.
it wont be making 600hp (stock turbos, boost, injectors, wallet, etc) but it will run

mike

Bitchn7

Well, I rest my case. Bloody hell
$105 an hour. US?
In NZ, the average 'high' rate is $50 an hour +GST which is 12.5%, so $56NZ an hour. Thats about $20US.
One of my suspension suppliers charges $75 for labour (there main mech worked for Koni in Holland) and I though that was steap.

RXTed, regardless of what I may be missing out regarding parts etc. You may be right, you would be better to get the car built in NZ or OZ if you are paying the same rates as j9FDs, You want a right hand drive? We can FD's here in NZ for around $18000NZ upwards.
Freight would be about $4k US for both way if you were to send your car to one of the rotary guys here

Damn, $105, thats amazing. No wander the top shops over there have such exspensive toys, they are raking it in.

I love NZ even more now.

Evil Aviator

They aren't exactly raking it in because the overhead (mechanic's pay, rent, insurance, etc.) is also more expensive. I would imagine that the profit margin is similar to the Anzac shops because I don't know of too many mechanics with million-dollar homes. Also note that the average American income is higher (the USA GDP per capita is about twice that of NZ), so the cost (price paid vs. income) is probably also similar. It's all relative.

BTW, the labor at my local race shop is $60/hr plus state tax, but the dealerships charge much more.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

we are a dealership, and so far ive done all the labor myself.

mike

NevadaLoneWolf

You can afford to do the swap, but can't afford a dig. camera? Makes a lot of sense....