Ok guy's i have a question just how much power can the 20b eccentric shaft handle before i goes pop??? lets get an answer from the professionals out there...

 

Hopefully 1000

 

Able Ibarrea (if that is how you spell his name) is using a stock 20B shaft, and is making 1,400+ rwhp. So I think that covers anything you'd want to do. He used aftermarket ones for a while, but keep breaking them, so he is back to stock and its working good!

 

wow....can you say damn?! one thing though: doesn't it matter what series you have? i heard somethin like series a and b aren't that good cause they break easier than the other series. what gtorx7 said pretty much sums it up though. would like to know what series able ibarrea has though. hope that kinda helped....
-erik

 

Abel has all brand new 20b parts,they dont have numbers stamped on them like our production line engines so his has to be series D or later...According to Bern, abel uses a all stock mazda rotating assembly (rotors & shaft) that got lighten & balanced by Racing Beat for about $10K each set....I spoke to Abel once about the aftermarket shafts and he said they didnt work to well, even the one that was built by Mike at Gforce transmissions didnt work good....
im sticking with street porting on my 20b with alot of boost & a 8000-8500 redline...i think a 20b reving below 8500 rpm at HI boost will last longer (less stress) than a 9-10K rpm low boost motor and both should make around the same power...
As of right now im thinking about selling my C series motor and buying a short crank 3rotor kit for a few $$ more because new 20b parts are getting harder to find as time goes on..The kiwi Re "13b 3rotor" is a few mm shorter than a factory 20b engine so that means i can rev higher & i can now go with a more radical port and not worry tomuch on shaft flex plus S6 parts are cheaper & easier to find if it breakes..
anyone wanna do a group buy on a few short crank 3rotor kits?

 

i would definitely be interested in what you're talking about. i want to know more information on it and see if it would be worth it to buy that or just get this one three rotor long block that i know someone is selling for 3500. what do you guys think? the engine i'm about to buy has only 46,000 miles on it and it's clean like crazy from the looks of it in the pics. they're a reputable company too, and i've dealt with them before. which one would be stronger as well is what i would like to know. thanks beforehand man....
-erik

 

well the world's 2nd fastest rotary uses a Kiwi built short crank 3rotor with an estimated 1400hp on 3 turbos... This "kit" is just that, it not a fully assembled motor its basically new s6 modify irons,stationary gears & a custom billet eshaft you'll still need rotor housings & a few motor things to make it a short block....the kit is about $5k US and it might take about another $5k in NEW parts to have yourself a running 3rotor....
i think someone in the US should try to copy one of these Kiwi kits, i know the cost will be less for us if a US company makes them and we could also save alot of 20b powered cosmos from being hacked up...
i dont mind forking out the $$ to buy a Kit for someone to copy, but i'll only do it if i get 2 kits for my services
http://www.kiwi-re.com/wwd_showroom_cat10.php

 

At current exchange rates

3 Rotor Crank Kits $5,500.00 = 5,500.00 NZD
New Zealand Dollars =3,466.64 USD
United States Dollar


The 3 rotor kit has the following:-

1:- Eccentric Shaft

2:- 1 x Centre plate

3:- 1 x Stationary gear (modified)

4:- 1 x Stationary gear carrier

5:- 1 x Stationary gear external oiling mod

6:- 2 x eccentric shaft end caps

These guys have put a lot of time & effort into these kits, bit low to have someone come along & copy what they have done. You could have a brand new running 3 rotor for a little over double that price.

 

i dont see anything wrong with offering a similar product to the world, with maybe better engineering and a better price....im not tring to take anything away from Alec and the boys, huray for all there efforts in the rotary community but this kinda of stuff happends everyday in the business world....so u telling me that if Abel Ibarra, racing beat or pineapple racing was offering a similar kit for 1/2 the price of the Kiwi kit u would be patriotic and still buy Kiwi?

 

I'm not a kiwi, but I fail to see how it would be half the cost. 3700 is a good price for a well engineered 3 rotor kit in my opinion. You really think someone can offer all that for $1850 USD?? considering the prices you guys pay for the rest of your parts? Keep dreaming mate

 

i was only using the 1/2 price talk as an example, but im sure it can be done for less than $4000 here in the US....on this forum there are alot of capable guys that have access to alot of fancy machines and im sure they can produce similar parts of they wanted for there own personal use using the existing Kiwi design, so does that make them low?
do u have any idea on what Alec charges for a turn key package? thats motor,turbos,motec & 1300+ estimated hp.... when u find that out then tell me if that performance could be had else where for less $$

 

Why are you mentioning Alec? You should be talking to Jeff Bruce for a start.

Well lets see.. $500 aussie for new rotor housings x 3, $1800 aussie for a complete seal kit, 3 x good second hand rotors, good second hand end plates are cheap as. You'd need a custom sump, intake, 20B CAS, turbos well depends on what setup you want.

Why motec? whats with the 1300 hp? How did this go from a 3 rotor kit to 1300 hp?

 

why are we all arguing again? seriously guys....stop! it all comes down to who you trust more. everyone has their own opinion. i'm still interested to see if it would be cheaper to buy a three rotor engine (which i've found for 3500 with only 46,000 miles on it and it's clean as hell), or get that kit that you guys keep talking about. wouldn't you need custom fab manifolds if you buy those kits? i'm thinkin to have 500 to 600 hp with my three rotor that is gonna be ported and i'm keepin the stock twins it has. instead of arguing with each other, try to help me out here hahahhaa. thanks beforehand by the way....
-erik

 

Depends how long you are planning to keep the engine/car I suppose.

Consider that centre plates aren't available from Mazda anymore, would be the biggest thing against buying a 20B now.

It's not something someone could or would make up either and will be a very expensive option if you ever need to replace it thats if you can source one from the few people that have them. Custom intake is peanuts compared to some of the prices I've already heard the centre plates are going for.

 

i know jeff bruce was the guy that first came up with this brilliant idea, but Alec formally of Rotary Performance oz was the one that introduced it to this part of the world with dennis's drag car.... a complete long block from Kiwi-re is about $80k USD, thats turbos,manifolds,etc and the reason i mention Motec is because thats mostly what they use.

Rx7 from heaven : this is just a kit will the necessary parts to add a 3rd rotor on, you'll still need more stuff to make it run with the most expensive parts being the intake & exhaust manifolds & oil pan cuz these items have to be custom made..
if you plan on selling the car after the conversion then save some $$ by getting a 20b but if u are here to stay ( yeaaa rotary for life!!) and want more than 600hp with a little less worry then go short crank...

 

How do they get 80k??? I think someone is having a lend of you.

Custom intake, $2500 Australian (includes manifold, t/b, linkages etc.)

Sump, I was quoted $300 Australian (prices are when I was going to buy the kit off Jeff)

Exhaust manifolds, well these are all custom anyways for a single turbo, around the $800 mark that includes HPC.

Thats $3000 USD.

Don't forget though, after this you will have a brand new engine, not a 15 yo one.

No reason to go motec, when the fastest car in the world at the time to crack 200 mph over the 1/4 ran microtech, unless of course you don't think that is proof enough.

I am only posting because a lot of people will read this, and don't want them to believe bullshit.

Just a comment on the over 600hp too, there are many 20bs over here making 700-800+ with pretty simple setups. My engine is the exact same spec as a certain rx3 over here making over 800hp at the wheels, this car has been running realiably for the last few years.

Andrew

 

i dont wanna turn this thread into a **** fight about the Kiwi engines, so sorry to the author for hijacking you post...
Mr Andrew i think u have a bit of catching up to do in the pro drag world of rotaries...the fastest rotary on earth ran 209 MPH using a Motec and factory 20b, the 2nd fastest is using a short crank 3rotor and microtech @ 202mph IIRC...
back in the day(6-7 years ago) of Rotary Power Australia, when dennis "d mennis" Marquise first build his 3rd gen he was one of (if not) the first guy in the US to own a short crank motor @ a cost of $50-60K each and thats the FACT!! these were the prices from dennis himself when i meet him a few years ago when the car was still yellow with the blue RPA stickers on the side...Dennis lives 10 mins away from me and a few of my BMW friends know him pretty well so theres no rumors here just the facts...
i pratically live at the race tracks in NJ and have a few friends in PR that knows a thing or two about the Major league car so you here alot of stories about it...
the stories are that MJ complete setup cost around $120K USD for the complete running setup and $80k for each additional engine ...this talk came from very reliable people in the rotary community and i dont see why 4-5 different people would makeup a BS story like this, even Abel confirmed the approximate prices of the Kiwi motors...

 

No reason to go motec, when the fastest car in the world at the time[I][U] to crack 200 mph over the 1/4 ran microtech, unless of course you don't think that is proof enough.

http://www.mazfix.com.au/

I am still at a loss as to how the price blows out to 80k USD, any ideas?

 

im quite aware of Archie's historic run but unfortunately he only ran over 200 mph once and im sure he could of done it again if it wasnt for the crash...
Microtech's are great computers for the $$ but alot of guys here still use Motec, and its motec thats powering todays fastest rotor with microtech in hot pursuit....i think its a matter of choice and know how between tuners. some tuners might not be as skilled as others so they prefer a less complex unit like microtech others might think a Microtech is garbage and use only motec or autronic....since im not a tuner i'll have to go with a unit that my tuner feels more comfortable with..
i think the reason the Kiwi's are so expensive is because they know there $hit works and they know the kind of power there engines are capable of, and its to bad that they couldnt show the world this when they built & tuned Dennis's car...can someone call kiwi-re and get a ball park price on a complete setup like the MJ car, theres nutting better than getting the price from the builders them selfves..

 

Obviously you know everyone & everything so I'll stop quoting facts that I have been quoted from the source.

Good luck to you & sourcing your cheaper 3 rotor, this thread is pointless & going no where.

If you wish to source a cheaper alternative, contact the guy who orginally designed the engine.

Email : precisin@ihug.co.nz
ICQ UIN: 15067117
Phone : +64 9 415 3264
Fax : +64 9 415 3265

I'd still be interested to know what buys you an 80k (120k USD complete) short block engine though, drop me a pm when you find out.

 

wow slow down cowboy, theres no need to get all emo on us...
if Racing Beat can charge almost $10k to lighten, balance and install snap rings on a 20b rotating assembly then u can see how the prices on race motors add up.....i dont think its that easy to extract 1000+ hp from these motors without major machineing & the use of some exotic materials....Look at titan motorsports they charge about $80K USD for a 6 sec 2jz engine package, and thats the same motor the GAS/ rotor master camery is using....these are proven motors and the builders know what their engines are capable of making...
the other factors that might increase cost is the fact that someone else is getting access to there race winning technology, and that doesnt come cheap because theres a possbility that the customer could buy just 1 engine and try to copy the builders designs & tricks and build himself the same motor (or close to) for less that the original price...
im not a "know it all" but i do like asking questions in the benifit of educating myself..
thanks for Jeff's info, i've herd alot about his work when i meet HITman in trinidad a few years ago...
dont worry , when i get those $500 1000hp engines i'll send one your way.....it'll sure be cool to have 2 1000hp 1st gen in the world

 

Fair enough.

A piston for 80k I can understand, but a Rotary, where you are limited to using factory plates, housings etc without all the additional components of the piston engines.

Anywhere up to 40k Australian would sound right for a full short block capable of that hp, but $106k? (thats 80k USD)

As an idea, you buy a 20B here for between 4-6k Australian.

 

Simple answer..... It's called hellacious ridiculuos mark-up and nothing else. When you have the sponsorship, your gonna have the extra money so the shops are going to over charge for their service. Plan and simple.

 

This is a perfect example to my above post. This kind of price gauging to perform such a modification is purely ridiculous. Here your paying 10k mainly for labor work on an existing factory part. LOL

 

these companys know that we dont have much of a choice so is either we pay to play or quit the game all together...we dont have much aftermarket support these days so thats all the reason for us to sick together & share our findings & tricks with one another....amen