wire corner springs + turbo
12-02-11, 01:28 PM
#1
wire corner springs + turbo
I know the stock wire corner springs in the 12a's like to flatten with high horse power or boost.
My engine has about 104k miles on it, its stock port stock engine with crushed and shimmed oil pressure regulators, ran great NA. Im using an s5 turbo with ported waste gate, stock S5 manifold with spacer, stock nikki carb prepped by me, carb hat made by me, 2.5" IC piping, big IC, cold air intake for the turbo, 3" exhaust, wideband boost water/oil temp and oil pressure gauges, upgraded ignition, efi pump, sump'd and baffled tank, 3/8 feed and return lines...
Id like to think that I have as many supporting mods as possible to make this a very reliable set up. Im going to run about 10psi on the turbo and see what i get, hopefully about 200rwhp. From what ive read, 10psi isnt a lot and the 12a can more than handle it, im just worried about the corner springs... I plan on driving the car all the way from OH to NC for deals gap, driving it a lot down there, and then back. With a good tune, conservitive AFR's, no hard launches or generally stupid driving, should I be ok? I dont want to drive 500+ miles one way on a sketchy set up and have to pay to tow it home.. Input greatly needed
My engine has about 104k miles on it, its stock port stock engine with crushed and shimmed oil pressure regulators, ran great NA. Im using an s5 turbo with ported waste gate, stock S5 manifold with spacer, stock nikki carb prepped by me, carb hat made by me, 2.5" IC piping, big IC, cold air intake for the turbo, 3" exhaust, wideband boost water/oil temp and oil pressure gauges, upgraded ignition, efi pump, sump'd and baffled tank, 3/8 feed and return lines...
Id like to think that I have as many supporting mods as possible to make this a very reliable set up. Im going to run about 10psi on the turbo and see what i get, hopefully about 200rwhp. From what ive read, 10psi isnt a lot and the 12a can more than handle it, im just worried about the corner springs... I plan on driving the car all the way from OH to NC for deals gap, driving it a lot down there, and then back. With a good tune, conservitive AFR's, no hard launches or generally stupid driving, should I be ok? I dont want to drive 500+ miles one way on a sketchy set up and have to pay to tow it home.. Input greatly needed
12-02-11, 06:48 PM
#2
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they sold the T2 with those springs, and they were fine...
12-02-11, 08:00 PM
#6
Depends. Engines are man made. A brand new engine can blowup instantly if something isnt right..
I was always more worried about apex seal wear or loss of compression.. That was something I worried about when going turbo on my used motor. I had a motor that supposedly had 60,000 miles before I bought it. Had it for 5 years N/A beating the hell out of it. Then the turbo setup and blew it up in one and a half months..
It lasted that long on incorrect timing though. Which tells me the motor was very strong still, I just blew it up....
Someday when its time and your motor does go, you'll laugh at how pathetic the wire seals are lol
I was always more worried about apex seal wear or loss of compression.. That was something I worried about when going turbo on my used motor. I had a motor that supposedly had 60,000 miles before I bought it. Had it for 5 years N/A beating the hell out of it. Then the turbo setup and blew it up in one and a half months..
It lasted that long on incorrect timing though. Which tells me the motor was very strong still, I just blew it up....
Someday when its time and your motor does go, you'll laugh at how pathetic the wire seals are lol
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12-02-11, 10:22 PM
#10
So basically correct timing, 10psi, correct AFR's, and the nut tightened behind the steering wheel and I shouldnt have to worry too much about driving it on a 1k mile round trip then. Great! I can't believe I didn't know the t2's had the wire springs. I've torn down a few engines Jared, they are puny!
12-02-11, 10:46 PM
#11
Original Gangster/Rotary!
iTrader: (213)
After rebuilding over 100 FD motors, I was dumbfounded when I recently pulled apart an 85 GSL-SE motor. I thought all the corner seals were seized in their grooves, but the wire springs had just given up 
Those things are a damn joke, what could mazda have been thinking?
Those things are a damn joke, what could mazda have been thinking?
12-02-11, 11:51 PM
#15
The mods you actually need
Nitrided Competition Oil Pump
RX8 or FD Corner seal springs
JDM 12AT turbo apex seals
Side Clearanced Rotors
3 window rear stationary gear
Everything else as new GENUINE MAZDA
What to not have
Extra weak spots near bolt holes sorry I mean Dowels
Coolant leaks sorry I mean Studs
Overpriced hand filed pieces of iron
Points for your apex seals to catch on sorry I mean square exhaust ports
Nitrided Competition Oil Pump
RX8 or FD Corner seal springs
JDM 12AT turbo apex seals
Side Clearanced Rotors
3 window rear stationary gear
Everything else as new GENUINE MAZDA
What to not have
Extra weak spots near bolt holes sorry I mean Dowels
Coolant leaks sorry I mean Studs
Overpriced hand filed pieces of iron
Points for your apex seals to catch on sorry I mean square exhaust ports
12-03-11, 01:51 AM
#17
I tore down an S4 NA two weeks ago that lost a wire type corner spring out through the hole in the corner seal. The builder didn't install the rubber plugs. This engine had lots of other problems like a failed port job (open way too early but no Judge Ito beveled closing edge), failed thrust assembly, failed oil pickup tube (it was bent up against the engine, luckily we caught it before its first crank) and the pilot bearing was filled to the rim with grease. Oh and no pilot seal.
As the corner spring worked its way out, it caught on the shoddy port job and cut a gash across the side of the rotor breaking the side seal, then the spring was pushed around by the rotor face cutting a groove in a figure 8 across the intermediate plate, then it caught on the port again and cut back across the rotor's side face and smashed the side seal deep down into the slot.
Can I save this rotating assembly? Of course. after digging out the broken side seal and cleaning up the gash, it was business as usual. I swapped in a set of NF01 corner springs. These are true JC Cosmo & FD springs which provide maximum lift. They are not the RX-8 springs which aren't as stiff. Also swapped in a set of FD side springs and replaced the busted side seal. Only a couple of side seals were within factory clearance so I moved several around and thumbed through my pile to get them all to factory spec.
The oil seals were funny. One was cracked. Several others had nicks and scratches. They were also so carboned up that when I went to install the new ones on one side, the pressure caused the other side to get stuck in the rotor. Some creative digging with a razor blade worked. This engine never smoked though. Probably due to the Atkins Viton o-rings which were still holding up several years after its build date of 2003 over at some shop.
The Atkins 2mm apex seals were worn down to 8.34mm. New = about 8.44mm. But will they work in a different set of housings? I had to sand down a raised edge caused by the old worn housings. The new housings are like 99% perfect chrome. I had to get new apex springs because the builder reused his old ones. I guess that was good for me because they applied less force to the apex seals and left me with more seal available to break in to my nice housings!
I won't type out the specs of the new engine because I don't want to detract from the OP's thread. Just sharing my recent experience with wire springs and what could happen if you either didn't install them right, or didn't put the rubber plugs in. For my rebuild of this assembly, I chose to include the rubber plugs even though I'm using NF01 corner springs. Might as well right? They were available, and factory engines have them. They prevent carbon buildup or gas leakage behind the apex seal?
This engine had lots of other problems like a failed port job (open way too early but no Judge Ito beveled closing edge), failed thrust assembly, failed oil pickup tube (it was bent up against the engine, luckily we caught it before its first crank) and the pilot bearing was filled to the rim with grease. Oh and no pilot seal.As the corner spring worked its way out, it caught on the shoddy port job and cut a gash across the side of the rotor breaking the side seal, then the spring was pushed around by the rotor face cutting a groove in a figure 8 across the intermediate plate, then it caught on the port again and cut back across the rotor's side face and smashed the side seal deep down into the slot.
Can I save this rotating assembly? Of course. after digging out the broken side seal and cleaning up the gash, it was business as usual. I swapped in a set of NF01 corner springs. These are true JC Cosmo & FD springs which provide maximum lift. They are not the RX-8 springs which aren't as stiff. Also swapped in a set of FD side springs and replaced the busted side seal. Only a couple of side seals were within factory clearance so I moved several around and thumbed through my pile to get them all to factory spec.
The oil seals were funny. One was cracked. Several others had nicks and scratches. They were also so carboned up that when I went to install the new ones on one side, the pressure caused the other side to get stuck in the rotor.
Some creative digging with a razor blade worked. This engine never smoked though. Probably due to the Atkins Viton o-rings which were still holding up several years after its build date of 2003 over at some shop. The Atkins 2mm apex seals were worn down to 8.34mm. New = about 8.44mm. But will they work in a different set of housings? I had to sand down a raised edge caused by the old worn housings. The new housings are like 99% perfect chrome. I had to get new apex springs because the builder reused his old ones. I guess that was good for me because they applied less force to the apex seals and left me with more seal available to break in to my nice housings!
I won't type out the specs of the new engine because I don't want to detract from the OP's thread. Just sharing my recent experience with wire springs and what could happen if you either didn't install them right, or didn't put the rubber plugs in. For my rebuild of this assembly, I chose to include the rubber plugs even though I'm using NF01 corner springs. Might as well right? They were available, and factory engines have them. They prevent carbon buildup or gas leakage behind the apex seal?
12-03-11, 01:58 AM
#18
Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
After rebuilding over 100 FD motors
Do you know if the light weight OMP drive gear is ok to use with a distributor/CAS?
12-03-11, 12:16 PM
#19
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After rebuilding over 100 FD motors, I was dumbfounded when I recently pulled apart an 85 GSL-SE motor. I thought all the corner seals were seized in their grooves, but the wire springs had just given up
Those things are a damn joke, what could mazda have been thinking?
Those things are a damn joke, what could mazda have been thinking?
12-04-11, 11:42 PM
#20
Yeah, shutup kid.
If you stick to 10psi and don't boost it for long periods of time then it should be fine. If you have the water/oil beehive oil cooler you should get a better oil cooler. I ran 14psi on 2 stock 12a blocks, both ended up with stuck corner seals and flattened springs, the first one broke most of the side seals and a couple corner seals too. I was running the beehive oil cooler and didn't have an intercooler or wideband tuning until the 2nd motor. As long as you stay under 10psi you shouldn't have any problem, above 12psi you should run solid corner seals and every engine should use the better springs. I killed the 2nd motor trying to run 20psi on it and cracked the back plate, didn't have it tuned perfect yet, did a bare bones rebuild(no apex seals, just gaskets/o-rings and side/corner seals and springs) and got another 15k out of it before the compression was low enough it had to be push started.
12-07-11, 10:16 PM
#21
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Have you ever seen a factory lightened OMP drive gear? I found one in an FD motor once. It's going into my new engine along with a lightened oil pump sprocket (drilled by Pineapple Racing) and a Racing Beat aluminum underdrive pulley.
Do you know if the light weight OMP drive gear is ok to use with a distributor/CAS?
Do you know if the light weight OMP drive gear is ok to use with a distributor/CAS?
The rotors I'm speaking of had corner seals so flat that it seemed there was no spring under there. Surely you aren't implying this is ok?
12-08-11, 01:37 AM
#23
Originally Posted by GoodfellaFD3S
I've never seen one of those. Not sure there'd be much benefit.
When you hold it in your hand and then compare with a regular one, you can feel a weight difference, but yeah with everything else that spins on the shaft, it's not much benefit. But then again some people say every little bit helps. I'm going with that mentallity this time.
12-08-11, 11:42 AM
#24
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