Transistor trick for 2GCDFIS.
08-29-05, 09:57 PM
#276
Lives on the Forum
Hey Kent, you can leave the connectors off of mine if you like. No big deal for me to put one on myself. Is this the longest thread in the forum yet? 
08-29-05, 11:38 PM
#277
Hey guys.
It looks like I'll be building around 40 units. 30 something are for people that said they definitely wanted one. I'll keep one for myself and there should be possibly a couple left over. Just to tell you guys how high priced RadioShack is: at RadioShack, 10 resistors cost $1.98. Ay Mouser, I got 200 resistors for $1.80. Actually with the way the pricing breaks work, it was cheaper at Mouser to get 200 of one kind of resistor than to get just 40.
Ken: I'll do that. You could remove the connection from the other box and just solder the wires to the pads on the board or I could put wires for the ignitor and you could just splice on a connector.
It has grow to be quite a thread. It has been a lot of fun designing the circuit and even better that the results have been so good. If we ever want to do something with the trailing or some other eletronic circuit that would benefit 1st gens, I would be glad to help out.
I'll keep you guys up-to-date.
Kent
It looks like I'll be building around 40 units. 30 something are for people that said they definitely wanted one. I'll keep one for myself and there should be possibly a couple left over. Just to tell you guys how high priced RadioShack is: at RadioShack, 10 resistors cost $1.98. Ay Mouser, I got 200 resistors for $1.80
. Actually with the way the pricing breaks work, it was cheaper at Mouser to get 200 of one kind of resistor than to get just 40.Ken: I'll do that. You could remove the connection from the other box and just solder the wires to the pads on the board or I could put wires for the ignitor and you could just splice on a connector.
It has grow to be quite a thread. It has been a lot of fun designing the circuit and even better that the results have been so good. If we ever want to do something with the trailing or some other eletronic circuit that would benefit 1st gens, I would be glad to help out.
I'll keep you guys up-to-date.
Kent
08-30-05, 01:11 AM
#281
Lives on the Forum
Yeah Kent, if you could start the wires for me so I don't have to solder on the board that would be great (I'd probably burn my house down in the attempt). Maybe you should come up with a label to put on these units, get yourself a little recognition under the hoods of 7s all across the country!
08-30-05, 02:36 PM
#282
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the started wires for mine also, then maybe I'll use some bullitt connectors and make it easy to switch from transistor to non transistor. Just tell us when to shoot you money.
08-31-05, 08:14 PM
#283
Okay. I think that I have found a source of those connectors. Special thanks to Alvin (Zyrano). He found some looking for motorcycle parts. They are a bit more expensive than I figured. I have contacted the company to see if they will sell just the male end (they were listed in sets) and if maybe we can get a quantity discount. I'll let you guys know what happens. If I can't get the price down, I may have to do something like add $2 or $3 to those that want to have a new connector installed and the ones that don't care could use their old plug or adapt some other sort of wiring. Hopefully, I can get the price down, so that we won't have to do that. I prefer to have the connector installed so that it makes it easier for people to install and there is no chance of it getting hooked up wrong.
The parts are on their way, but UPS tracking says they won't be here until Tueasday.
I was hoping that they would have shipped out on Monday, but they didn't go out until Tuesday (last night). If I would have known this, I would have spent the extra $8 or $10 to do USPS Priority. If it doesn't come Friday, that will cut out 4 days that I could have been building. I hope that the tracking if off and will be here Friday.
Kent
The parts are on their way, but UPS tracking says they won't be here until Tueasday.
I was hoping that they would have shipped out on Monday, but they didn't go out until Tuesday (last night). If I would have known this, I would have spent the extra $8 or $10 to do USPS Priority. If it doesn't come Friday, that will cut out 4 days that I could have been building. I hope that the tracking if off and will be here Friday.Kent
09-02-05, 08:40 PM
#284
Keep track of time at the JY.
Hey guys. The couple places that I found that have those connectors only sell them as sets (male/female) and don't come with terminals. The local motorcycle shop can get them (in sets), but since the place they order from is wholesale, they need to wait to build up a large enough order before the place an order. I decided to hit the JY instead. I went through a couple RX-7s and got almost enough connectors for all the boards. The wiring is short, so I will have to remove all the terminals and replace them. I can get a bag of them online. Don't know how long it would take to get here, though. Regular female spade terminals will fit, but they don't have the tab to lock them in place.
Anyway, I am out pulling connectors. I then go to the front to pay, and the place is locked up. I heard music, so I thought I was okay on time. One of the pullers left the radio on in one of the cars. I went all over trying to find someone so that I could get out of there. I finally found a guy. He said that I set off the motion detectors and the police contacted him saying that there was someone out there.
He was in the middle of eating dinner. I was so embarrassed. I don't have a watch. It seemed like one minute I heard the part pullers working and then it got quite (except for the music).
Atleast I got the connectors. The rest of the parts won't be here until Tuesday because of the holiday. I will remove the terminals from all these connectors and figure out what I am going to do for new ones. I'll go ahead and get these wired up to speed up the assembly process a bit.
Just keeping you guys filled in. For those who want to do a check or MO, you will probably want to go ahead and send, so that I can get the circuit shipped out to you before I leave. PM me and I'll give you the address. Paypal is also fine. Since I won't have this weekend to work on the circuits, I will have to work fast to get them done. I will get them done, though.
Kent
Anyway, I am out pulling connectors. I then go to the front to pay, and the place is locked up. I heard music, so I thought I was okay on time. One of the pullers left the radio on in one of the cars. I went all over trying to find someone so that I could get out of there. I finally found a guy. He said that I set off the motion detectors and the police contacted him saying that there was someone out there.
He was in the middle of eating dinner. I was so embarrassed. I don't have a watch. It seemed like one minute I heard the part pullers working and then it got quite (except for the music).Atleast I got the connectors. The rest of the parts won't be here until Tuesday because of the holiday. I will remove the terminals from all these connectors and figure out what I am going to do for new ones. I'll go ahead and get these wired up to speed up the assembly process a bit.
Just keeping you guys filled in. For those who want to do a check or MO, you will probably want to go ahead and send, so that I can get the circuit shipped out to you before I leave. PM me and I'll give you the address. Paypal is also fine. Since I won't have this weekend to work on the circuits, I will have to work fast to get them done. I will get them done, though.
Kent
09-02-05, 09:04 PM
#286
No problem. Glad to help out. I was thinking like $25 no connector or $27 with connector. The extra $2 should cover the cost of the connectors and terminals. If I buy the new replacement terminals, I have to buy 100 of them. I'll knock a couple bucks off yours because you found those connectors. The weren't cheap enough to justify using, but finding a souce is helpful none the less. I will probably use that souce for the new terminals if we go that route. I'll pm you my paypal.
For the guys that already paid, don't worry about it. If you paid extra, I'll refund or use the extra to get you faster shipping. I will make it even for everyone.
Kent
For the guys that already paid, don't worry about it. If you paid extra, I'll refund or use the extra to get you faster shipping. I will make it even for everyone.
Kent
09-03-05, 10:25 AM
#287
Lives on the Forum
Closing down the junkyard, eh? You are one dedicated man!
I'll put the wifey to work and get her to do the paypal thingy (never bothered to figure any of that stuff out).
Thanks for all of your hard work, and I hope you have a really nice time in France. You do plan on dropping into the forum now and then, right? I mean, they may be French, but they still have computers don't they?
I'll put the wifey to work and get her to do the paypal thingy (never bothered to figure any of that stuff out).
Thanks for all of your hard work, and I hope you have a really nice time in France. You do plan on dropping into the forum now and then, right? I mean, they may be French, but they still have computers don't they?
09-03-05, 12:15 PM
#288
Thanks, man. Yep, I will still be online. I picked up a laptop so that I can be online from my apartment. I am not sure how it is there, but most the labs here don't have an outside connection to the internet. They don't want hackers or employees giving out sensitive info. The hours that I will be online may be a little odd because of the time zone change. I can't stay away from this place. 
09-04-05, 09:13 AM
#289
Hey Kent...
When do we need to pay you?
Whats the amount?
Are you using paypal?
I don't get on here much and don't want to miss the boat on getting one of your units so let me know...
Thanks!
When do we need to pay you?
Whats the amount?
Are you using paypal?
I don't get on here much and don't want to miss the boat on getting one of your units so let me know...
Thanks!
09-04-05, 09:26 PM
#290
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I've been doing some thinking about this today and am wondering if an ignition box could be used with this mod and whether it would be beneficial to do so. Lets take an MSD 6AL for this example. I think it reads the signal from the ECU on a second gen. It could be hooked up to the transistor box to get the 5v signal from that. I think that this may bypass the stock FC ignitor and this is where I question whether the use of an ignition box would even be worthwhile. I'm not sure whether it will be as good up high as the transistor trick would be when used with the stock FC ignitor. In other words I'm not sure whether the coil would produce full power at high RPM. The MSD 6AL uses capacitive discharge rather than inductive which is supposed to be better at charging the coil at high revs so this may not be an issue. It probably would not be an issue anyway since the pulse width is determined by the transistor trick box.
I really want multiple sparks at low RPM since the car is a daily driver which brings me to another concern. The MSD 6AL produces multiple sparks up to 3000 RPM spaced over a 20 degree interval. Correct me if I'm wrong but since the leading is direct fire wouldn't that make the MSD box think that 1500 RPM is 3000 whcih would mean no multiple spark above 1500 and the spacing would be over 10 degrees? Then again I'm not sure whether the box reads RPM via a tach signal (off of the trailing) or off of the magnetic pickup (transistor box in our case). If it is off of a tach signal, there should be no problem since 180 degrees is read as 180 degrees rather than being read as 360 degrees so the sparks would really be up to 3000 RPM and over the interval of 20 degrees. The magnetic pickup would half everything.
Also, would it require two boxes or one for leading only? I know alot of the elaborate setups use 3 boxes (leading and trailing) and for DLIDFIS I would think that 2 are for leading and one is for trailing. With the FC setup, I would think that 2 would be needed for trailing since there are separate igntors and coils which would leave one for the leading. This is another one of those things that I am speculating on.
One last concern that this brings up with me involves the "waste spark" (i know its not really wasted). If the multiple sparks last for 20 degrees the last spark would be 20 degrees behind the first one. On the "waste spark" this MAY occur after the leading plug has been exposed to the next rotor face. This would cause a very undesirable situation which would essentially be like running direct-fire on the trailing, maybe worse.
These are just a couple of thoughts that I've had to furthur improve our ignition setup.
I really want multiple sparks at low RPM since the car is a daily driver which brings me to another concern. The MSD 6AL produces multiple sparks up to 3000 RPM spaced over a 20 degree interval. Correct me if I'm wrong but since the leading is direct fire wouldn't that make the MSD box think that 1500 RPM is 3000 whcih would mean no multiple spark above 1500 and the spacing would be over 10 degrees? Then again I'm not sure whether the box reads RPM via a tach signal (off of the trailing) or off of the magnetic pickup (transistor box in our case). If it is off of a tach signal, there should be no problem since 180 degrees is read as 180 degrees rather than being read as 360 degrees so the sparks would really be up to 3000 RPM and over the interval of 20 degrees. The magnetic pickup would half everything.
Also, would it require two boxes or one for leading only? I know alot of the elaborate setups use 3 boxes (leading and trailing) and for DLIDFIS I would think that 2 are for leading and one is for trailing. With the FC setup, I would think that 2 would be needed for trailing since there are separate igntors and coils which would leave one for the leading. This is another one of those things that I am speculating on.
One last concern that this brings up with me involves the "waste spark" (i know its not really wasted). If the multiple sparks last for 20 degrees the last spark would be 20 degrees behind the first one. On the "waste spark" this MAY occur after the leading plug has been exposed to the next rotor face. This would cause a very undesirable situation which would essentially be like running direct-fire on the trailing, maybe worse.
These are just a couple of thoughts that I've had to furthur improve our ignition setup.
09-04-05, 10:44 PM
#291
I am not sure if this would be beneficial or not. The MSD produces multiple short sparks whereas our setup should produce a longer single spark. As far as the timing/rpm seen by the MSD because of 'wasted' spark, it is not an issue. The coil, whether 'wasted' or not, still produces 4 sparks per 720* (same as a 4 banger).
I know Jeff20B has said before that the MSD doesn't work so well with coils in parallel. This is because the MSD produces an output that is high voltage but low current. When the coils are in parallel, the current gets cut in half. You can get around this by using a second MSD. This adds to cost as well as the fact that MSD boxes are quite large and take up room in the engine bay. I know some guys use it on trailing as well. I don't think this is a good idea. First, I doubt there would be any benefit on the trailing as well as the additional sparks wearing out the dizzy cap/rotor faster. You have to still go through the dizzy otherwise you would get spark during the intake phase of one of the rotors. Maybe some others can put their inout in on this.
It will be interesting to see how the 'trick' stands up against the MSD. I know of atleast one guy that is getting the circuit to try to replace his MSD. As it stands, the 'trick' is a simple, small, and effective way to upgrade the ignition. I am not sure how it would compare performance wise to a pair of MSDs, but it is certainly smaller and cheaper.
Kent
I know Jeff20B has said before that the MSD doesn't work so well with coils in parallel. This is because the MSD produces an output that is high voltage but low current. When the coils are in parallel, the current gets cut in half. You can get around this by using a second MSD. This adds to cost as well as the fact that MSD boxes are quite large and take up room in the engine bay. I know some guys use it on trailing as well. I don't think this is a good idea. First, I doubt there would be any benefit on the trailing as well as the additional sparks wearing out the dizzy cap/rotor faster. You have to still go through the dizzy otherwise you would get spark during the intake phase of one of the rotors. Maybe some others can put their inout in on this.
It will be interesting to see how the 'trick' stands up against the MSD. I know of atleast one guy that is getting the circuit to try to replace his MSD. As it stands, the 'trick' is a simple, small, and effective way to upgrade the ignition. I am not sure how it would compare performance wise to a pair of MSDs, but it is certainly smaller and cheaper.
Kent
09-06-05, 11:17 PM
#292
Okay, guys. I have all the parts now. I am now etching all the boards. Tomorrow I will drill and begin assembly. I need to figure out if you guys want the LEDs on the right or left side of the box (wires coming out the bottom). Left should be good if mounting on the front side of the strut tower (closest to the battery, by fusible links). If people want to mount the box by the relays and hot-start assist motor, the right side would be better. It is easy to do either. It is just a matter of what end to drill the hole for the wiring.
The guys that I have received payment for will get their boxes first. The ones without the connector will be the first to ship. I got the new terminals for the connectors, but they are the wrong size. I will order the correct ones in the morning and have them probably by Friday. I will likely ship that group either Friday or Saturday.
Kent
The guys that I have received payment for will get their boxes first. The ones without the connector will be the first to ship. I got the new terminals for the connectors, but they are the wrong size. I will order the correct ones in the morning and have them probably by Friday. I will likely ship that group either Friday or Saturday.
Kent
09-07-05, 12:37 AM
#294
Thanks. It is all coming together. It's going to take some work to get them all done in time, but I know I can do it. I may be able to only etch about 8 boards tonignt. I am running out of etchant. One guy I work with has like a gallon of the stuff he wants to get rid of. I'll grab it from him tomorrow.
I am not sure on the mounting. I have mine by the relays as I have a 2nd gen fuse box mounted closest to the battery side. I am not sure what the others did for their install.
Kent
I am not sure on the mounting. I have mine by the relays as I have a 2nd gen fuse box mounted closest to the battery side. I am not sure what the others did for their install.
Kent
09-07-05, 01:28 AM
#296
Either way is just as easy for me. I put them on the left side of the first batch I did. This works good for the front of the strut tower, but in the back, the LED would be facing the wrong way. I am trying to figure ot if there is a default way that I should put them. If you want it the other way, let me know and I will set it up that way for you. I may default them to be on the left (best for front of strut tower), because that keeps the board in the same orientation. I am using a green LED for the input signal and a red one for the output. I will keep this consistent, so that if you have me mount the LEDs on the other side of the box, you will know which is input and which is output.
Etching boards number 5-8 right now. I will then call it quits for the night and hit it again tomorrow.
Kent
Etching boards number 5-8 right now. I will then call it quits for the night and hit it again tomorrow.
Kent
09-07-05, 07:58 AM
#298
Will do. I will put it on the other side from where yours is now. I am sure that your LED is probably facing either down or toward the fender. Switching will face the LEDs either towards the engine or up (depending on the mounting orientation). I can put it either way just as easy.
Kent
Kent
09-07-05, 12:41 PM
#300
8krpm is not enough
sounds like the left is good for me too. I'm not sure where I'm going to mount the trick, but I'm sure I'll figure something out.
I look forward to being able to toss the MSD and see what this pup can do.
I look forward to being able to toss the MSD and see what this pup can do.