T4 Turbo in 1984 GSL-SE
03-30-08, 09:40 PM
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T4 Turbo in 1984 GSL-SE
A buddy of mine has a freshly rebuild T4 turbo that he is giving me to put on my GSL-SE. My question is where would be the best place to purchase everything else I need to install it. (header, tubing. intercooler, etc)
03-30-08, 10:19 PM
#2
djessence
Are you just running a stock GSL-SE?
Its not a matter of just buying stuff and bolting it up for the most part. There will be some fab work required. Alot of mods needed to turbo it (fuel supply, etc)
I would start by reading through some of the build threads in the archives. Alot of the info will be useful to you.
Its not a matter of just buying stuff and bolting it up for the most part. There will be some fab work required. Alot of mods needed to turbo it (fuel supply, etc)
I would start by reading through some of the build threads in the archives. Alot of the info will be useful to you.
03-31-08, 09:38 PM
#4
FB+FC=F-ME
Where?.......................
Anywhere you want.
Its going to be custom,your gonna have to fabricate,weld,grind,research and all that other great stuff.There is no direct bolt on kit out there,and nobody makes turbo system parts for 1st gens since they never came with turbos in the first place(not in this country anyways)
All the turbo upgrade kits for 1st gens were new in the 80's and are pretty obsolete now.Plus,I dont know of any that were intended for the SE anyways.Get your IC from whoever,buy the exhaust manifold from anyone,and be sure put plenty of space between anything hot and that idler arm.And dont forget fuel......the SE has only 2 injectors,and they are needed for idle and cruise,so youll have to add some elsewhere for enrichment.Then youll need a rail,supply lines,and then figure out how to keep the ECU happy under boost and get that tiny little AFM to flow enough to feed that big turbo.Forced induction on an N/A engine is a pain in the ***.......all the more reason I champion the TII swap.
Anywhere you want.
Its going to be custom,your gonna have to fabricate,weld,grind,research and all that other great stuff.There is no direct bolt on kit out there,and nobody makes turbo system parts for 1st gens since they never came with turbos in the first place(not in this country anyways)
All the turbo upgrade kits for 1st gens were new in the 80's and are pretty obsolete now.Plus,I dont know of any that were intended for the SE anyways.Get your IC from whoever,buy the exhaust manifold from anyone,and be sure put plenty of space between anything hot and that idler arm.And dont forget fuel......the SE has only 2 injectors,and they are needed for idle and cruise,so youll have to add some elsewhere for enrichment.Then youll need a rail,supply lines,and then figure out how to keep the ECU happy under boost and get that tiny little AFM to flow enough to feed that big turbo.Forced induction on an N/A engine is a pain in the ***.......all the more reason I champion the TII swap.
04-01-08, 11:33 AM
#6
Make sure you have a $1500+ budget for a turbo project. And thats if you do the work yourself.
Off hand
-You NEED a wideband O2 senor with controller/guage
-get a ebay t2 manifold for the t4 turbo and add a "aaron cake" spacer for it ot clear your lower intake.
-exhaust will be modded
-haltech f5 or similar aux injector controller and 2 injectors
-you need a bov and maybe a wastegate (depending on the turbo)
-make all the feeds and drains for the turbo (oil/coolant)
-intercooler and pipes
Hours of planing and your car will be out of service for quite awhile.
Trust me on this because I'm finishing up my car!
Good places for parts are Summit, jegs, ebay, used parts here on this site, and other automotive forums..... try your local car club websites. RESPEED has a few parts you are gonna want aswell!!
Off hand
-You NEED a wideband O2 senor with controller/guage
-get a ebay t2 manifold for the t4 turbo and add a "aaron cake" spacer for it ot clear your lower intake.
-exhaust will be modded
-haltech f5 or similar aux injector controller and 2 injectors
-you need a bov and maybe a wastegate (depending on the turbo)
-make all the feeds and drains for the turbo (oil/coolant)
-intercooler and pipes
Hours of planing and your car will be out of service for quite awhile.
Trust me on this because I'm finishing up my car!
Good places for parts are Summit, jegs, ebay, used parts here on this site, and other automotive forums..... try your local car club websites. RESPEED has a few parts you are gonna want aswell!!
Last edited by JIMMY54; 04-01-08 at 11:41 AM.
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04-01-08, 02:43 PM
#8
Jimmy pretty much nailed the "what" and the "where" but I figured someone should chime in with the "why"
Now I'm no turbo expert, but what I do understand is that all the factory turbo rotaries (S4-S7, Cosmo) had lower compression rotors than their N/A brethren. The reason for this is that there are three things which can ignite an air/fuel mix : heat, pressure, and spark. (well, there's a fourth - a mixture too lean, we'll cover that after).
Ideally, you only ever want spark to ignite the air/fuel mix and to do so at precisely the opportune moment to drive the rotor forward with maximum force. Any detonation caused by (most often) pressure alone is dangerous because if it occurs earlier than the spark would, it has the tendency to want to drive the rotor backwards and fight the path the rotor is already following. This is "detonation", "knock" or "pre-ignition" (you may hear any of these used interchangably)
If you're going to be forcing air into the chamber at higher than atmospheric pressure, it's nice to have a little extra space for that air/fuel mix to collect in during the compression cycle. With high compression rotors, you risk detonation much more easily than low compression ones.
Ergo, building a turbo from an N/A engine with high comp rotors is much harder and requires more ... finesse.
- You'll want a fair sized intercooler (to keep temps low since lower temp intake charge is not as easy to pre-ignite)
- You'll want a fair sized wastegate (so that you dont' generate too much boost, it will allow some exhaust to bypass the turbo and go directly out instead of spinning the turbine more and creating more boost.)
- Same goes for the blow-off valve (so that when you let off the accelerator the remaining pressure is vented safely instead of forced into the engine)
- You'll definitely want control over your air/fuel mix. If you go lean, you can kiss your apex seals goodbye along with probably at least one rotor and housing. The Wideband O2 Sensor gives you the most accurate reading of your air/fuel mix, rather than just the "you're rich", "you're stoich", "you're lean" that you get with a narrowband. More or larger fuel injectors are a must since the stock fuel injectors can't flow enough fuel to feed a forced induction system. An aftermarket fuel controller is needed to control those based on the input from the Wideband O2... You'll more than likely have to upgrade your fuel pump so that you can get the added flow those injectors need too.
All of this and we haven't even discussed how to mount and plumb the turbo itself. You'll need a turbo exhaust manifold that funnels exhaust to the turbo, with provisions for a wastegate. You may need to custom fab that or hit Ebay looking for one that can be made to work. The downpipe from the turbo is most likely going to be custom-fab as well since perfect-fit downpipes aren't possible without knowing what manifold and turbo you're using, so they're not just made ready to go. All the piping for your intercooler is custom, and I don't know much about the intake setup that already exists on the GSL-SE but something tells me that you'll have to do some work on it to be able to blow through it properly.
Now as I said when I started this post, I'm not a turbo guy, or even a fuel injection guy. I run a carb'd 12a. So all of this is just knowledge that I've put together from things I've seen and read. I could be wrong, but as a guideline this should help give you the idea of the magnitude of the project. Having an S4 turbo at your disposal is great, but it's definitely not even half the battle of getting your -SE turbo'd.
Jon
Now I'm no turbo expert, but what I do understand is that all the factory turbo rotaries (S4-S7, Cosmo) had lower compression rotors than their N/A brethren. The reason for this is that there are three things which can ignite an air/fuel mix : heat, pressure, and spark. (well, there's a fourth - a mixture too lean, we'll cover that after).
Ideally, you only ever want spark to ignite the air/fuel mix and to do so at precisely the opportune moment to drive the rotor forward with maximum force. Any detonation caused by (most often) pressure alone is dangerous because if it occurs earlier than the spark would, it has the tendency to want to drive the rotor backwards and fight the path the rotor is already following. This is "detonation", "knock" or "pre-ignition" (you may hear any of these used interchangably)
If you're going to be forcing air into the chamber at higher than atmospheric pressure, it's nice to have a little extra space for that air/fuel mix to collect in during the compression cycle. With high compression rotors, you risk detonation much more easily than low compression ones.
Ergo, building a turbo from an N/A engine with high comp rotors is much harder and requires more ... finesse.
- You'll want a fair sized intercooler (to keep temps low since lower temp intake charge is not as easy to pre-ignite)
- You'll want a fair sized wastegate (so that you dont' generate too much boost, it will allow some exhaust to bypass the turbo and go directly out instead of spinning the turbine more and creating more boost.)
- Same goes for the blow-off valve (so that when you let off the accelerator the remaining pressure is vented safely instead of forced into the engine)
- You'll definitely want control over your air/fuel mix. If you go lean, you can kiss your apex seals goodbye along with probably at least one rotor and housing. The Wideband O2 Sensor gives you the most accurate reading of your air/fuel mix, rather than just the "you're rich", "you're stoich", "you're lean" that you get with a narrowband. More or larger fuel injectors are a must since the stock fuel injectors can't flow enough fuel to feed a forced induction system. An aftermarket fuel controller is needed to control those based on the input from the Wideband O2... You'll more than likely have to upgrade your fuel pump so that you can get the added flow those injectors need too.
All of this and we haven't even discussed how to mount and plumb the turbo itself. You'll need a turbo exhaust manifold that funnels exhaust to the turbo, with provisions for a wastegate. You may need to custom fab that or hit Ebay looking for one that can be made to work. The downpipe from the turbo is most likely going to be custom-fab as well since perfect-fit downpipes aren't possible without knowing what manifold and turbo you're using, so they're not just made ready to go. All the piping for your intercooler is custom, and I don't know much about the intake setup that already exists on the GSL-SE but something tells me that you'll have to do some work on it to be able to blow through it properly.
Now as I said when I started this post, I'm not a turbo guy, or even a fuel injection guy. I run a carb'd 12a. So all of this is just knowledge that I've put together from things I've seen and read. I could be wrong, but as a guideline this should help give you the idea of the magnitude of the project. Having an S4 turbo at your disposal is great, but it's definitely not even half the battle of getting your -SE turbo'd.
Jon
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