gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Hey guys,

I have this posted over in the 2nd gen section, but I thought that I would post here too. I know that there are some 2nd gen engine swaps running around on here (TII and NA) and this may not even be related to EFI (vac leak for example). Just looking for a sanity check and maybe something simple that I have just overlooked.

Thanks.

Kent

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I helped a friend drop a complete S5 NA engine (factory EFI etc.) into his 1st gen (GSL-SE). The car starts okay, but will not idle. You can keep it running if you pump the throttle, but does not run smooth even at a fixed (higher rpm) throttle input. I'll try to give as much detail as I can:

- N351 ECU
- N350 AFM and pressure sensor
- S5 OMP connected
- S5 harness, came off running S5 NA as far as I know, but appears to have a knock sensor plug (under the UIM, near the primary injectors..circular plug, single pin)

Timing should be good. I restabed the CAS to make sure. Spark on all plugs and plug wires connected correctly. Fuel system is essentially new (cleaned/sealed tank, new pump, new filter, cleaned injectors, new softlines).

The only code that I get is the fuel resistor relay code (51). This is because I do not have a fuel resistor realy connected. I'm using the GSL-SE circuit opening relay and am controlling it from the 3k terminal. I am using a jumper in the fuel pump tester connector to make sure that the fuel pump remains running after the engine starts. Fuel pressure tested good as well.

To me, it seems like a vac leak, but I have not been able to locate one. I am not able to keep it running long enough to warm up to adjust the TPS. Anouther thing, it was running open headers (RB dual outlet) until a section of the exhaust could be fabbed (friend needs to run a cat).

Tested the resistance of the BAC and AWS and both tested fine.

Just wondering if there is something that I might be overlooking.

Currently the car is back with my friend. I won't be able to help him for a while since I will be leaving to Europe for 3 months, but if you have some ideas, he can test or it will give me something to check when I return.

One other thing is this engine has sat for a long time (7-8 years). It might just be that the seals are sticking a bit..at least might be part of the problem.

Thanks, guys. Sorry for the long post, but more detail, the better for this kind of stuff. If I just say, "Help. My car doesn't run! " I don't think you could help me much.

Kent

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

To add to the above, the 1st time starting was a little difficult (flooded a bit, seals maybe sticking). Now it starts right up, but won't idle or run smooth. However, it revs like mad (aluminum flywheel, S5 engine). My friend is going to dump some seafoam in it this weekend to clean out the rest of the fuel system (hardlines) and maybe free up the seals a bit (going to add to the tank, but maybe could add some to the engine too).

Not able to really keep it running long enough or steady enough to check for vac leaks, warm up to adjust TPS, etc.

82transam

iTrader: (18)

Assuming all the plugs are firing it does sound like a vaccum leak. The one thing I didn't see you mention was anything about the throttle body and thermal wax assembly, if that isn't adjusted correctly it might not be holding the throttle open enough to keep it running.
Were the intake manifolds off at some point to replace the gaskets? The injectors (especially the primary) like to leak vaccum as the rubber grommets wear out too.
On a side note, I'm curious how did you guys deal with the S5 omp?
I'm battling problems with my S5 na engine right now too, so good luck!

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Did tank sealant enter the fuel lines?

bad 83

iTrader: (3)

Kent it sounds like the tps is out of adjustment. If you guys are running ALL the stock wiring the knock sensor wire is used for a power steering pressure sensor on the NA. It picks up the pressure and bumps the idle up if you are turning without any throttle sitting still. I know on the S4s you have to adjust the tps with car completely up the temp. I'm not sure on the S5s.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, guys.

Sean: The thermowax is removed. The aux sleeves are also removed (block off plate used where the rods were. He was originally going to block of the BAC and remove the AWS, but I kept those installed. We were thinking of putting the aux sleeves back in, but he no longer had the actuator rods. The intake was off, but the gaskets were new (well, they were installed like 7 years ago, but the engine hadn't been fired since then). I removed the intake to install the newly cleaned injectors. I reused the gaskets..perhaps they are leaking. All the gromets and o-rings on the injectors are new. For the OMP, I plugged in an S5 OMP and tied it off to the side. Currently, there in an SE working OMP installed, but couldn't figure out a way to get a working OMP rod and have the dual TPS. Will premix for now.

Jeff: Nope. GSL-SE tank and the pickup/return assembly was removed for sealing. He had rust and crap in the tank. Some pinholes towards the top. Needless to say, the gas was pretty nasty after 7-8 years (last ran in '01). This is why it needed a new pump (old one seized up). All fuel system is new with the exception of some crud that might still be in the hardlines (from tank to engine). All softlines are new. Perhaps we will do a volume test to verify. Pump sounds normal (doesn't sound like it is working overly hard). Also, the fuel sounds like it is circulating well through the lines, but won't know for sure until we do a volume check.

Sam: That could be. The TPSs (dual in our case) need to be set with the engine warm. They could be out of whack. It is probably different on the S5, because there is a different wire for the PS pressure sensor (goes from ECU to P/S pump along driver side of car). The wire that I am talking about in on the passenger side of the harness, under the UIM, right next to the primary injectors. I didn't see it on the NA diagrams, but I found it on the TII diagrams (only connector with a round plug like that) and it was saying it was for the knock sensor. All stock wiring, except that I stripped down the 'left side' harness like you did. Really only has coil related stuff and the test connectors on that side. Also, I have tied into the SE harness for things like the neutral switch, AC switch, etc.

82transam

iTrader: (18)

Ok sounds like you have the engine down as basic as you could and still pass emissions. Personally I'd run the 5/6 ports, either way that shouldn't be giving you the problems.
As for the tps, honestly the reason we set them a full temp is because thats when the thermowax will be full extended. Since you don't have any of that stuff attached you could at least check the tps as it sits. The test light is incredibly easy to make for only a few dollars.
Sounds like you have all the bases covered with the injectors, my guess would be a leak in the intake gaskets somewhere since there are 3 of them that could be at fault.
I'll be watching this thread, interested to see what you find. Good luck!

82transam

iTrader: (18)

btw I want to add that I'm jealous yours starts right up, mine runs pretty good once its running, but likes to start flooding almost every time, I'll have to run a compression test this weekend....

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, Sean. I'll have him try to adjust the TPS. I've done it plenty of times on my SE, but didn't try it on his S5. He has car experience, but not really that much with 7s. So, been giving him a hand.

Yeah, we wanted to put the aux port sleeves in, but the rods were removed and we couldn't find them. Basically he started this project like 7-8 years ago when his SE engine blew. His wife got cancer, so the project had been put on hold.

Anyway, as it sits, it is a S5 NA engine (full emissions, etc.) minus the thermowax and the aux ports. Everything else is installed. As I mentioned, no codes except for the fuel resistor relay (not using it..using the SE circuit opening relay).

Anyway, I'll try to guide him through the TPS adjustment. I'm leaving to Europe for 3 months on Monday, so I won't be able to touch the car until I get back in mid-May. Hopefully the owner can get it figured out (with our help) while I am away or it will at least give me some ideas to check when I get back.

IanS

iTrader: (4)

No idea whatsoever on FC stuff learning myself as well) but what would happen if you put the resistor in anyways?

mjm4jc

Kent,

With my S5 intake swap on my SE, I had simliar problems immediately after the swap. It ended up being the TPS and an intake leak. I fixed them both at the same time, so I don't know which one was more of the problem than the other. I would definitely look at these two areas.

Mike

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Basically, the FCs use 2 relays for the fuel pump. One is the circuit opening relay, the other is the fuel pump resistor relay. It looks like it is used to vary voltage to the fuel dump depending on load. Basically it supplies 9-10v during cruising/low load and 12v when you get on it. Anyway, shouldn't have anything to do with anything.

I jumpered the fuel pump tester connector to make sure that the pump stayed on (runs with the key turned to 'ON'). I was originally thinking that the pump was getting powered during cranking, but maybe not after starting (it was starting and then cutting out). The jumper maks sure that this isn't an issue.

Edit: Thanks, Mike. Looks like we are going in the right direction.

Still no hits on my 2nd gen thread. Just goes to show you how cool the 1st gen guys are.

82transam

iTrader: (18)

Yea the second gen section isn't the most helpful sometimes, I got most of my FC knowlege from FB guys who had done swaps. Even now that I own an FC in addition to the 2 FB's I don't visit that section much...
As for the resistor you're correct it vary's the voltage and thus pressure based on the amount of vaccum/boost rpm's etc. I have it along with the S5 circuit opening relay wired in on my 83 T2, but as you said, not going to be the issue here.
Just in case you aren't sure the tps test connector on a NA will be over near the passenger strut tower by the plug for the MAF and pressure sensor, and the fuel pump jumper you are using, it a 3 prong green plug. Have him check that and hunt down vaccum leaks and he should be good to go.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Yep. Good deal. The TPS connector is in the same spot on the SEs. I shot him instructions how to do it along with the section from the S5 FSM that talks about it. Maybe he'll have time to adjust it over the weekend and see what we come up with. I'll let you know.

bad 83

iTrader: (3)

Kent, just make sure all the vacuum ports are double checked on both the intake and the rats nest tree (if still there) There is also a vacuum port on the back o the intake towards the firewall that is part of the BAC emissions crap that is easily overlooked. Almost in the same spot as a FB intake. Just ask Stu about that one

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Will do, Sam. Pretty sure I got it covered. There are two that are almost hidden (1 large, 1 small) towards the firewall, but I capped those off. All the other emissions stuff is there and I believe it is all connected correctly, but I may have missed something. We'll get the TPS set and see how she runs.

Stan Chambers

I'm the guy that has the car that Kent has been working on. As an update, Since I got the car back home to work on whale Kent is out of country, I have replaced the Brake and Clutch master cyl, but have not been able to do anything to get her to idle yet. I have also ordered all the parts to completely rebuild the front suspension and front brakes. I have tried to find where I can get instructions for making the test light set up to check the timing but have not found anything yet. Even if I had, I'm not sure where to connect it. As you can tell, I am learning as I go on this project. If there is anyone out there that can help, I live in Orange County, VA between Fredericksburg and Culpeper, VA. Once I get these things taken care of, I will rebuild the rear suspension and brakes. My biggest problem is that I do not have a carport, much less a garage and mother nature has not been kind to my project.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Hey Stan,

The test light rig is for the TPS adjustment. The connector is a 3-pin connector (green, I think) near the air filter. I'll have to look at the FSM, but you may need to ground the 'test connector' when setting it. The 'test connector' is a single plug (orange wire, I think) and should be laying next to your trailing coil (near the battery). You best bet to get some pics or a "how to" on this is to search the 2nd gen section for "TPS adjustment". It is a little different between S4 and S5, but mostly the same. You will want to look for the 'S5 ('89-91)' version of the instructions.

Timing is done like other cars. We time off of L1 (lower plug on front rotor). Problem is you won't be able to really tell if the base timing is correct unless you get the RPMs down. However, it might be worth a shot to throw a timing light on there and have someone keep it running. Look to see if the flashes are consistant. Maybe there is a misfire going on.

I mentioned before that part of the harness was damaged when I started work on it (looked like maybe a mouse got a hold of it or something). I think that I got all of the wires repaired, but it is possible that I missed one. I do know that one of the wires from the CAS to the ECU was one that I had to repair.

Anyway, I'll try to guide you from here. I'll be back in 2 months and can give you a hand then as well.

Kent

Stan Chambers

For those that might be interested in this, my son and I found the major problem. After spraying the vacuum lines with carb cleaner trying to locate leaks and coming up empty. My son moved the back lower spark plug wire at the coil and I saw brass sticking out from under the wire boot. What had happened was the lead had gone under the coil not into it and the boot had completely covered it. Once the lead was plugged in the motor runs very nice. Still won’t idle, but should be easier to fix now.