Please excuse my long post, I'm just looking for some valuable input here on this potential race project I'm looking into.

The rundown is I have a chance to buy a caged 1st gen shell with some misc. suspension still attached and what not but needs quite a bit of putting back together. I am going to look at the car this week, so will know exactly what I will need, but know another guy selling 1st gen donor cars so will have to buy one of those as well.

My main concern is price and time. I want seat time, not a long term project, so if I can build the car up and have it ready to run economically then I'm all for it, but if it's going to cost too much it's just not worth the time. I don't mind busting my butt to get the car done and put in some intense elbow grease, but I don't want to spend more than it's worth meaning I know I can pickup a race ready car for $2500 or less, it takes some looking, but they're out there.

I have some questions...what needs to be replaced? lol I did some research on what I THINK seems like it should be replaced, but I am new to RX-7 chassis so don't really know for sure not to mention I haven't looked at either cars yet so don't really know for sure. I've also read up on tri-link and panhard setups, CAN I run decently with the stock setup for now? Goal being seat time and add more as time goes on.

Here is my list and pricing:

Race car chassis: $350.00
Donor car: $500

($850 for the caged shell and a complete donor car)

Parts

Race suspension: $400 (Mazdaspeed IT kit $1098)
Upper strut mount: $100.00 (fronts) rears?
Idler arm (competition) $80.00
Pitman arm: $130.00
Rear links: $370.00
Watts links plus competition mount: $160.00
Clutch: $200.00
Brake pads: $147.00 - $230.00
Brake rotors: $80.00
Brake master: $45.00
Steering wheel: $70.00
Hub: $60.00
Harness: $70.00
Padding: $30.00
Transponder: $350.00 (rental)
Wheels:
Tires:
Engine/Rebuild: $200 - $800.00
Paint: $100.00
Front control arms: $340.00 (complete + bushings)
Tie Rods: $228
Seat: $80.00 - $150.00
Seat mounting: $40.00
Seat back brace: $40.00
Steel braided lines: $100.00
Engine mod (exhaust, header, carb) $280 header, $100 air filter, $100 exhaust.
Fuel pump/regulator/filter: $310.00
Misc. $300.00

Now...do I need all of this? My biggest concern is that these cars may have been sitting long so a lot can be dry rotted, what is suspension life on these? Can I find decent used pieces and save a lot? The biggest issues I've read are the "Watts" links, which I know nothing about. I have not had a car this old so some of these terms are just unknown to me.

The car was a 12A car and we will run a 12A, the donor car does not run. So that also worries me, the seller is a huge rotary racer so said he can help...but once again...money. Is rebuilding a 12A or freshening one expensive and can it be done without a machine shop?

As you can see my mind is just going everywhere and I'm looking for some valuable input on what to really expect. Could I get this thing on track for say $1800 or would I really be looking at $4000+? I'm sorry for sounding like such a "n00b." lol

My overall goal: a "cheap" race car build that's reliable, doesn't need to be a class winner, but decently quick, reliable, and cheap to build. I'm not new to racing but know building is always harder than buying a race ready car but I see an opportunity here. I also have always had a huge passion for RX-7 race cars and especially rotaries, I've always wanted to own one.

 

Does the car have an SCCA or NASA logbook? Make sure that cage will be legal for whatever you're looking to do with it.

 

Yeah it's already logbooked.

 

Putting that car back on the track will cost $4-5K. Buy....do not build

In 2003 I bought a running/competitive ITA (SCCA Improved Touring A) racecar for $5500. It came with the following:

Jesse Prather 12A engine, Yaw Carb and ISC Carb
Header and exhuast system
12 wheels
A fully sorted suspension with all spherical bearings, Tri Link, Pan-hard bar
Ground Control camber plates, coil overs, Tokio Illumina shocks/struts
A fuel cell, fire system
Braided steel brake lines, brake ducts
Sparco seat
E Prod legal cage
Center Force clutch
Aluminum Radiator and SA oil cooler

With just a little pre-race prep and repair the car was turn key. You could say I got a deal but competitive, winning racecars typically include everything you need to go racing. Oh and the scratch build cost for this car was well north of $10K

For the amount of money you are about to spend you can buy an IT car that is all ready running, has spare wheels, tires and usable parts. RX7's come up all the time and the competitive ones are always a bargain. Racecars sell for $.50 on the dollar or less. Check out www.improvedtouring.com

 

Yeah those are all good points and what I've been thinking. I could turn this SE-R into a decent ITA car for less than that considering I have most of the suspension and what not for it already. I was just hoping there was a chance this RX-7 could be done cheap. lol

I'm a long time poster on the IT forums, I frequently check out the classified section.

 

I second MustangHammer. I bought my ITA prepped 7 for $1k. Bled the brakes, replaced the hydraulic clutch parts, finessed the carb and now have a running ITA car. Including updated safety equipment and tires I'm into the car for less than $3k.

For a first time race car owner you're going to pay premium for the learning curve.

 

I dont mean to bandwagon.. but yeah.

Buy a pre-built car.

It may cost a bit more up front depending on what you get.. but seriously.. the little niggly **** will make you crazy.

Every little nickel and dime thing you have when racing a USED race car will make you batty. THings expire and wear out. Thats a given.. would you rather spend time replacing parts that wear and expire? Or buy them new, and have to install them?
By the time you get done bolting everythign together.. correcting your mistakes when building things.. and dicking around for a season.. to get the car parts ON it.. Now you wasted a season.. Now you have a untested car. And it needs set up..... you could spend that first season dialing in a pre-built car. And learning from the previous owners mistakes. And learn the car.

Buy a pre-made car for seat time. 7, Miata, whatever. But get in the car and turn laps.
After a season or two you will have a lot better idea what class direction you will wanna go, and what you want from racing.

Building it yourself is its own reward, and a slew of challenges. BUT.. it will cost a lot of money and time.

 

Well that's just a steal, I bought my last ITA car for $1500 but it wasn't quite race ready I had to update some safety equipment...which ended up being a lot more, not because it needed it but because I decided to. It was still fairly affordable though as far as a build goes. Definitely won't be my first race car, I built my first race car, an ITC car, when I was 14...that was the only true build I've done where it ended up being a race car and not sold. lol

I'm not new to racing, I like the IT classes for now. If I could afford more I'd be all for it, but IT is big in this area and the ECR series is really what I have my attention on.

I CAN build a car "fairly" cheap, I am usually all for buying versus building, but it all depends. I have a Sentra SE-R that I could convert to an ITA car for $1800ish because I happen to have a lot of parts for it already and you can track it while you build it so that need to test and trial/error while racing it is already pretty much done. I've done that, but I agree it's quite nice buying someone elses finished item and just driving.

The problem is every car I find for sale at a decent price comes when I'm not in the market or already started building something. lol

 

If you do go the build it up yourself route, your prices are very high for the parts you have listed.

Suspension = www.re-speed.com

Competition Idler Arm is just a Moog unit which can be found for $40.00

Install new ball joints in current control arms, secure with a spot weld if needed. Cost 60.00

The list goes on, so consider that as you make your decision. Good luck



.

 

My concern would be the engine that doesn't run. It's really a mystery ball until you get it running or start the rebuild. . . . 12a housings don't last forever and they cost an arm and a leg since they're not made anymore. I agree that most things on that list you have are priced high, but I have my doubts about rebuilding an engine for just $200. I'd look to that as being more towards your high estimate. For just the seals, the cheapest I've ever seen them for was $350 for goopy brand and apex seals aren't necessarily something to pinch pennies on.

(Take this as a grain of salt. I've never personally rebuilt an engine before, but I certainly did my research before getting a GSL.)

I can say that when I needed a new control arm I bought a perfectly good one for $35. (Torn boot cover though. I needed to press in a new ball joint. Those aren't too much though. Probably $35-$40 new IIRC)

 

around here you can find old Pro7 cars for $1000-1500, and you'd need to put the safety stuff up to date, and change fluids and some misc stuff, so maybe you spend another $1000-1500.

or you can start with your $800 pile of parts, and assemble that. your list is a little redundant, if you buy the race suspension you get camber plates so it doesn't need strut tops, because you just threw those away....

some of the other things, like replacing the watts linkage, depends on how you want the car to run right out of the box. if you're happy just getting the car out on the track, the rear suspension literally only needs springs and shocks, which is about 1/2 hour of work.

you should start with a rebuilt engine, new tie rods, ball joints. the moog idler arm is nice, but just replacing the bushings in the stock arm works too, and its cheaper.

so it depends. building the car will take longer too. i think if you did your homework right, building the car wouldn't be much more than buying a used one.

 

That's the input I'm looking for, I don't really know what's what yet as I'm still learning about these "older" cars.

Well I put $200 as I wasn't sure what it would cost to freshen it up or even what it needs. I'm now saying around $800 or so. I'm aware of the 12a issue as IT7 cars are slowly fading away slowly due to lack of housings. There's a new IT7R class being developed here in the southeast allowing the use of an RX-8 engine, should be pretty cool.

The race suspension I priced at $400 would just be a pile of used stuff, just shocks/springs. The IT suspension would have camber plates I believe from Mazdaspeed.

I'm looking to run the car no matter what, if I can get it reliably and safely on track then add go fast parts that makes me perfectly happy.

I'll keep looking into this, I like hearing my prices are too high. I'm not looking to win a championship in this car but just run enduros/sprints and have some fun.

 

MSRP on the Rx8 engines is $1500 right now, plus core, which is the cheapest i've ever seen a rotary, and i've been playing with these since the early 90's!

my car is an old Pro7 car, so its got front camber plates/coil overs, but other than that and shocks, its stock, and its fun! if i ran it in locally it wouldn't be front pack, but it needs a better driver, and hoosiers before it needs fancy suspension parts....

 

Where are you shopping? I want some of that!

I just logged into Mazdamotorsports.com 5 minutes ago under a racer account and it's nothing near that low for an RX-8 long block.

"MSRP" is usually a manufacturer/dealer term. Are you quoting dealer pricing or a rebuilt unit from a third party supplier? Dealers usually don't sell parts at the price level that Mazdamotorsports gives to racers. Unless, you are a good customer and have known them a long time.

I've bought crate motors for 1st gens and 3rd gens and have been doing this since the 70's. Don't hold my feet to the fire here as my brain on the pricing has rotary cobwebs, but I don't seem to recall that low of a price from a dealer. And I got some sweet pricing from a dealer back in the early days. If it was as low as you've quoted, it was back in the era of RX-2's, 3's. Maybe 1st Gen RX7?

My third Gen motor may have been a tad north of your figure, but again, I had very good relationships with the dealer.

On pricing, I seem to recall that I rebuilt my first RX-2 rotary at age 14 with a seal kit, gasket overhaul set, borrowed tools and it amounted to around $500. Maybe $700ish. That was without rotor housings, or irons. Just a straight refresh with in spec engine parts. I rebuilt the same motor a few years later with new irons, bridgeported and race-ported exhaust, hardened-gears, pinned rotors and put a RB Holley kit on it. That was significantly more money.

So, I've had my hand in a few motors going way back. I'd be curious as to where you are get your pricing. Not trying to sound rude, just curious. If you can share the info, that will be great.

I also think the IT7R class mentioned above could resurrect a few race cars that are gathering dust. It certainly would if the engine cost is that low. Putting a Renesis engine in a First Gen with megaquirt, throttle body and larger exhaust would be a great boost for an ITA, IT7 SRX7 car. I don't know what the exact horsepower would be, but it would be a big jump in power and would put the car further up the ranks in IT. The IT Miatas would have a tough time with that maybe. Under braking they would beat the RX7, but I wonder about the rest of the lap. Something tells me they would get the short end of the stick. I've raced Spec Miata and the IT Miatas don't have that much more power than the SM cars.
http://www.ncrscca.com/it-7r-rules
IT7R also gives an outlet for cars that maybe would be abandoned due to the lack of 12A rotor housings. It will ad resell value to a beleaguered car that had no real future. And when the SRX7 guys blow up their motors and can't find parts, they will have a natural place to progress without taking their car to the crusher, or installing a Chevy 350 for a Lemons/Chump Car race.

Finally, I do believe the Southeast Division of SCCA has the IT7R class on the agenda for their mid-year meeting. It's a no brainer to give the 13B to the RX7 for racing. SCCA and NASA need the entries in this recession and the cars are already built and stashed in shops. Butch Kummer has more comments about the progress over in the IT Forums.

Oh hell, I just realized I hijacked this thread. Sorry to do that Simon! But you did bring up IT7R, so I had to open my mouth because I think it is a great idea for the 1st gen. If they do this in the Southeast and all the indications seem like they will, I wouldn't hesitate to buy that car and put an RX8 motor in it. I doubt you will find a race car that will be that fast for the amount of money you invest.

Back on topic, I somewhat agree with some of the other posts. The biggest expense could be your engine. If the 12A won't start and run and has no compression, you need to rip it apart and see what the rotor housings looks like and the irons. If you need ém, your biggest issue will be finding rotor housings for a 12A.

The other stuff prepping the car you can work through over time if you are willing to put in the elbow grease. Check the cage out too. I think SCCA made some cage updates a few years back. Not major items, but if you can't weld or fab stuff, this could be another expense. Check the log book and see when the last race was and compare it to current cage rules. You can download the Supps from SCCA in PDF format to read about the cage. It will educate you somewhat and you'll be able to spot any possible glaring errors. If you have a photo of the cage, you could also post it up in the IT forum. If there are issues, someone is bound to chime in.

Good luck.

 

i used to be a parts manager@ a dealership, so i know about the pricing structures. i heard from my friend who works there about the engine price.

and it depends on which part number you looked at

N3H3-02-200R-V0 is a reman and shows no prices, N3Y2-02-200R-00 is a NEW engine and its $4745

actually the FD engines have been reasonable lately, they are 100% new, and depending on the deal you get are in the $4k range, which isn't bad for NEW.

 

Thanks for the part numbers. The numbers are usually hard to find because some of the catalogs the site has online are ancient. It is usually always best to phone them first.



Indeed that number number is accurate and shows: ENGINE, SHORT M/T
The price is the same for the A/T which is what I referred to in my earlier post.

There is another one that is a similar part number and may be a competition motor, but it has has no pricing. N3H3-02-200R-V0-C ENGINE, COMP

That one looks to be an automatic: ROTARY ENGINE SHORT 6AT
Your price is accurate.


I put a Mazda reman in mine years back and I can't be exactly sure but it was in the low-to-mid 2K range. Yea, yea, I know, I shouldn't have put a reman in it and should have put a new one in it, or rebuilt it myself. But, it was an extended warranty claim with one of those third party insurance repair companies. So, I didn't have much choice. They were being asses trying to say I didn't change the oil after doing their oil tests. They didn't want to pay the claim, but they ended up loosing that battle and paid up. The car was spotless.

Anyway, thanks for the part numbers.

And Simon, I hope you don't think we hijacked your thread here. Some of the stuff we are talking about could have a bearing on your purchase if you decide to run IT7R in the Southeast. You will need a motor.

I just got an email about an hour ago indicating that the guys in the Southeast are working on a website for the class. And someone else left a voicemail message this morning to give them a shout. They will be part of the discussion with the mid-year meeting with the RE's.

I wouldn't bail on purchasing that car at this point. If it is caged and has a log book, you could have a sweet opportunity for an IT7R built car. The Southeast Division is usually swift on their feet (under SCCA standards) with accommodating racers with respect to races. I've seen them change rules for the ARRC enduros based on driver/participant input. Something other Divisions sometimes drag their feet on.

 

Thanks for all the posts! No offense taken at all, I've been reading anything rotary/RX-7 like a mad man so the talk has been informative, I've also been trying to keep up with any IT7R developments so thanks for that too!

If I were to go that route the thing for me would be to run the car as is (12A) and slowly save up for the RX-8 items and swap parts, I need seat time and need to race to keep my license so don't really want a long project right now.

I plan to look at this shell this week (hopefully) I was suppose to last week and was just crazy busy. I was also told it has quite a bit more on it than expected, so I'm excited to see what. The cage is up to date from what I understand and stamped/logbooked. If it just needed extra door bars or something that's no biggie I had to do that on my last car.

Still my only concern is the engine. The rest I think I can work out without too much trouble. I'd just jump the gun and start a Renesis swap if I could afford it, but like I said I need track time! The other obvious concern still is cost, I don't want to spend a lot on this as race ready IT7 cars can be had cheap. If I can save a grand doing it myself than I'm all for it, if I spend as much as it costs to buy one ready to go that's just pointless in my opinion.

 

get pics of the cars, pics of the cage so we can see what you would be working with, look around for a used engine, not as good as new but some times you can get good running engines for a few hundred bucks

 

Well I know the cage is fine, I know who built it and the guy I'm buying from.

I'm probably buying it for sure now, he found a lot of parts for it and is including an engine and transmission. So my original list has greatly dwindled down. I'll rebuild the engine but I know it's rebuildable (removed running) and I'll take the other 12a out of the parts car I buy and possibly rebuild that down the road too.

I just can't justify putting a used engine that old into a race car.

 

at the very least you want to pull it apart and check all the clearances, and replace anything that's not in spec, and you can also make sure you have the big oil pump. step 2 would be to run carbon apex seals, and bump the oil pressure (the FD regulator is $30 new).

 

Yeah I think I'm just going to rebuild it completely for my peace of mind and just so I know what I have.