Manntis

Here's my plan:

Strip a GSL-SE to bare body

Mount a renesis N/A engine (the only way they'll come, for a while) into the chassis with all associated computers, wiring, etc.

Mount drive-by-wire rack and pinion steering above the engine/tranny powerpack using the Audi method of connecting the tie rods at the top, not the bottom, of the hub.

Electric fan behind a tri-core rad

independant rear suspension that bolts into stock mounting points (a la the Mustang IRS development - no chopping of the body needed) with Torsion diff.

Mild tweaking of the sheet metal to update the look of the car (new rain rails integrated, one piece neoprene bumper covers, projection xenon headlamps, etc)

New interior with modern ergonomics (switch and shifter placement, tilt steering, etc) using carbon fibre in the dash to lighten some of the heaviest components in a car: the metal substructure of the interior

Building such a high performance car on an already registered pre-existing chassis will enable the creation of a limited run of Ferrari killers (say, 100 max) in a small, light, nimble body without crash-testing, etc.

At the very least it's a fun intellectual exercise; now I just need to start contacting suppliers.

SuperPhly

Hehe, need to hire someone to help out with that?

Manntis

Always.

The hard part will be fabricating mounting points for the engine & tranny. I was thinking a lightweight sub-backbone to tie the powerpack to the diff and surround the driveshaft (similar to the FDs) would make lining up the drivetrain a snap.

What would be the best supplier for an exhaust system, I wonder? Sub-contracting would be the way to go

SuperPhly

Well, before I throw any time and even money... how do you plan on financing this? I am very serious if you are willing to post funding for the project. No, I don't mean "payment for work", but "development costs". I mean if you are for real, then so am I. But if this turns into a "wouldn't it be cool"... I am not so sure.

Manntis, if you want, message me on AIM: SvperPhly

I'll see about getting some plans drawn together and maybe start doing measurements.

Manntis

Do you have ICQ?

As to financing I live in a car-crazy town of that has 12 huge, well-funded car events every summer as well as a racetrack, etc. - and people willing to put in coin.

It started as a wouldn't-it-be-cool just a few months ago; Now I'm at what-would-fit-and-perform-best

stinkfist

Actually I think the hard part would be getting people to pay $50k+ for a car that usually sells for ~$1,500. You could also match or better performance by spending less than $10k.

Not trying to put down your Idea. Just keeping it real. How many 1st gen fans you know that would spend the kind of money that this car would have to sell at?

I think this would be a good one off but you could never get your money back out of it.

I hope you prove me wrong.

MIke

MIKE-P-28

iTrader: (1)

This is like so many other ideas, that fall to the wayside.. Guys I think stinkfist is right, most of your 1st gen drivers are younger people looking for an inexpensive 1st car or a back up car, that looks nice and preforms well. I doubt seriously anyone is gonna spend that kind of money when you can get more horsepower for under 10k, including the car

SilverRocket

I agree with Mike/Stinkfist - it's sounds like a great project to make for yourself, but as a business venture I'm not so sure.

If you were serious about this, you couldn't expect to just launch in and start building things. It isn't just about the plans for building the car. You'd need to make a real business plan, one that was supported with sound research and figures to back up your assertion that there are 100 people that would be willing to buy these at a price that would result in a profitable gain on your initial investment. Now to me, this does not seem to be a very self-evident assertion; if you believe this, you better have some bulletproof numbers behind it.

This won't be cheap - you'll need investors backing your project, just like any other business. You'll also have to understand that no investor will be willing to finance your project unless you can show a high likelyhood of providing them with a return on their money commensurate with the level of risk you're asking them to bear. Which means, much higher than market return on securities, etc, something on the order of several hundred percent perhaps. This is required to justify the very strong possibility that they lose their whole investment.

So you see, 'getting coin' to fund the design and manufacture of 100 cars is not a simple or easy thing - what you propose is a large and expensive project and would be treated with the level of seriousness and rigorous analysis corresponding to such projects. No one just jumps in to these kinds of things - if they do they'll fail and lose lots and lots of money.

From a marketing standpoint, I think you'd have a hard time with this. Seem to me that It would have to be cheaper than a used 3rd gen, because I'm betting most people would prefer an FD anyways. Remember, not everyone shares our view of 1st gens being the ill ****, and if joe average can build a souped up TII with 350hp for less than 10k, I'm not sure you'll stand a chance. Can't count on everyone on this forum buying one, most of us SA/FBers are exactly the kind of people that Mike described...

Anyways, I'm not trying to **** on your idea, just to let you know that there are lots of things to think about before getting started with such a project.

Manntis

You guys should look at the refurbished 240Zs that Nissan sold a few years ago at a high premium - cars that normally go for $1,500 were going for $60k + (US) with stock horsepower.

In addition, look at cars like the Crossfire or Solstice concept cars that make people cream- there aren't that many tiny, high powered cars on the market right now. Even rear wheel drive ones like Bimmers are weighted down with power everything and airbags, etc.

There is a market for ultralight street legal cars but they're hard to get (Lotus Elise is unavailable in the US, yet highly sought after despite 128hp) or nonexistant.

With the new drivetrain and interior this car would be as different an animal as a GSL-SE is from a '79.

Remember, marketing a vehicle is not entirely about the hp or performance numbers but about having a toy that most people don't and getting envious looks from passersby.

Case in point: Every day I see at least a dozen people checking out my car since I put on the new rims with that unique "Whoah. I wish I had that" look in their eyes. The Enkei rep has thanked me for over 20 sales in the 3 months I've had the rims that he knows were caused by seeing my car.

Van Sema

iTrader: (1)

I agree with Manntis.

What you guys are failing to see is this. The car will not look, handle or perform like the GSL-Se from '79 .... it will be a completely different beast all together. In fact, i'd wager to say it will only be slightly recognizable to an untrained eye.

As for not having people interested in this project. I beg to differ ... like Manntis said, there are people out there looking for a light, fast and nimble car that can perform as good or better than high dollar performance cars. The fact that it will be a fraction of the cost of a ferrari, but will hang with them is another strong buying point.

Also, who said it was going to be 50k+? Like one of you said ... that car goes for 1500 running ... and even less for a non running car, which is what maantis will be looking for. I think this idea will be fairly cheap to assemble.

Manntis, this is a great idea! I greatly anticipate seeing a finished product. Get some plans in the works and maybe a drawing of a finished car. (you probably already have) If you have the money ... i wouldn't even bring investors in at this point. Get a car put together, and then you'll have investors knocking on your door. Instead of the other way around.

Just 1 of my 2 cents ...

Take care
Van

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

Ditto.

SuperPhly

I am thinking of a "branding" like Yenko of Camaros, Shelby of Mustangs, Lingenfelter of Corvette. One of the big things has got to be the styling. 1st gens have a great base to work from. The 2nd gens are *puke*... think 80's clothing styling... the 3rd gen has nice styling, but it's too new to change to "wow". I think you know what I mean.

Wattz

I wanna help! But only if I get to drive it after it's done... If even for only 5 minutes.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

well, i'm not as business-minded as you guys, but i think i am just as car-minded ... and, honestly, i don't know. i'd tend to agree with silverrocket, simply because it's not going to be cheap to build that car, and judging from what i see with people in this country ... it won't be easy to sell them either.

let's face it, the only people that are going to be interested are die-hard mazda rotary people (and maybe a few of the rich ones who buy things just because someone they know said it's cool)

i mean, marketing is going to be a problem, simply because you guys would have to go about getting some sort of manufacturers status sort like Ruf did with Porsche. and even they had factory support. if you guys don't have support from mazda, then that in itself may turn into ugly issues ...

another case that comes to mind is the california roadster that RB tried to market back in '88 (?) i've only seen a picture of one of those cars (other than the red one and the original white one that RB were using to promote them) ... and by the way, it was just a picture in the for sale section, i've never seen one in person.

please ... i'm not trying to offend you or even discourage you, i don't know you guys, but as just one guy to another, i just want to make sure you are considering all that you will have to face. if you think it's worth it, and still want to do it, hey ... you'll get nothing but support from me, but just think it through thoroughly ... and then think it through again!

peace, y'all

Manntis

Remember when someone stuffed a high powered engine into a small, inexpensive, but well liked chassis?

Carol Shelby & the AC Cobra.

As far as marketing: let Car & Driver and Road & Track test drive a finished one and let it be known 100 are available.

Heck, people bought Bricklins and Vectors, why not give 'em something good?

There is also economy of scale: By designing and building one bracket to mount a Renesis and 6-speed tranny, one spends a lot of money. To make 99 duplicates is relatively cheap.

As to why people would want an assembled 220hp+ (final figures for the Renesis keep fluctuating) normally asperated Rex when they could have a bolted together collection of aftermarket parts running 350hp, check out the street scene. Not all one-off high performance 'enhancements' work out. I've seen many a Honda blow their engines due to a bit of this added, then some of that.

In addition, while many of us on this forum love to spin wrenches I'm keeping in mind the dentist who doesn't know a rachet from a radiator but wants a whatthefuckwasTHATbeatingmymustang? kind of car.

The expenses associated with the design and manufacture of vehicles or vehicle parts are associated primarily with the engine, chassis and crash-testing, and designing the equipment to construct the various pieces (metal stamping dies, etc.) By using an existing platform such as the RX7 and keeping custom fabrication limited to brackets (easily welded together) fibreglass and carbon fiber (lain over carved moulds, as they do for one-off show cars and custom rods) manufacturing costs are far lower than one would think.

How do you think shops like Panoz and Callaway start? They don't spring into being all at once as the legendary names they become; they start by offering existing platforms with performance enhancements at a premium price for those willing to buy what is known as a 'boutique' car.

I appreciate the comments about investor concerns; however, while I have mentioned on this forum that I have a background in mechanical engineering I haven't published a full résumé and would like to state that I am far from naive when it comes to such financing nor am I driving my Rex because it was all I could afford. It took me a total of two weeks to save up for my $4,000 car and an additional week for my Enkei rims and Pirelli tires. If neccessary I can fund my Renesis Rex in-house, then build #100 with bare metal (no paint) and have every one of you sign it

SilverRocket

You're already assuming that you can build such a car to be as good as all that... of course this is maybe possible, but is it possible for the cost level needed to be profitable? An FB with minor mods isn't going to impress anybody - it would have to be really something else. Another thing I was thinking, is that an FB is not really an 'ultra-lightweight' car. Especially not with bodykits and foglights, full interior, etc. I'm not sure how you intend to make it so light that a Renesis would render it a "Ferrari killer"... 250hp in a 2300 pound car still isn't anything extraordinary. I mean, sure it'd be pretty fast, but a Ferrari-killer? That's a pretty tall order.

Vector was on the verge of going bankrupt for years, as I recall, hardly anybody wanted to buy them.

I just don't think there's a lot of money in a small-scale automotive production... I think the costs would be too high. But - I'm anxiously awaiting that you prove me wrong.

SuperPhly

Mantis, lets do this... I don't know how to start, I am a college student, but I would love to help out as much as possible. I guess first things first, you need to get ahold of a 1st gen chasis (SE or not). And begin to do some of the sheet metal fabricating and styling concepts. Then get that together and present it to mazda (they are getting back into the "heart of a sports car" mentality *YAY*). If Mazda bites, then we are good to go... if not, then at least you have a kick *** 1st gen chasis with some cool style.

Manntis

SIlverRocket, I respect you and your opinion. But companies such as Panoz, MG, and even to some extent Porsche have survived and even thrived as limited production car manufacturers. I'm not proposing anything nearly as ambitious as I'm leaving the engine/ECM and chassis design to the pros at Mazda.

This will be far more than an fb with minor mods - it'll be a Renesis powered chassis with an fb silhouette. New engine/tranny/diff/driveshafts/suspension(IRS!)/interior/etc. is hardly 'minor'.

The main cost is just buying the engines, but that's a matter of cutting a cheque and awaiting shipping, not constructing a design house, hiring engineers, testing for years, etc.

Okay, so a Ferrari might be a few points faster, but at a price at least five times greater and far less exclusive (they make more than 100 of 'em, after all)

Even as a one-off this car will capture media attention as did the Corvette 882, the 4-rotor concept car of 1973. Should I be 'stuck with' zero sales I'll still have my dream car.

I'm taking an "If I build it, they will come" approach. Only after construction will I KNOW if my vision is genius or madness.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

well, i'm not trying to step on your toes ... so if anything i say offends you, please ... you have my apologies up front ... with that said, here goes ...

shelby and the cobra are one of the few special cases ...shelby had the fame and reputation which put him and the cobra ahead of the game long before that project got off the ground. he had ford's blessing and resources at his disposal (correct me if i'm wrong) ... look at colin chapman and lotus ...
another thing with the shelby example, is that the 60s and 70s are a far cry from today ... people could make sports cars and sports car drivers would buy them ...
now we live in the days of technological productions that happen to have 4 wheels, a steering wheel and a key ...
cars have to battle the EPA, the US government and then ... even when it makes it across those hurdles, it has to battle the very people that drive them. because these days, it's never the driver's fault when something goes wrong ... look no further than audi, suzuki and firestone.
i mean, just look what BMW had to with the M3 ... it's a great car, but even if i had the 50 grand to buy one, i wouldn't want to because it basically drives itself.
but that's what the SUV-lovin' masses want ... now, again, i'm not trying to steal your sunshine, but think of the money and the R & D that's going to have to go into developing the car around the engine ... (because, let's face it, that's what's going have to be done). you and i know what a gen I car can do at speed, we know how to handle it, but let's be real ... is someone going to pay for live axle/Watts linkage suspension. these idiots try to run Suburbans like they were driving Miatas ... i promise you ... someone is going try to grow ***** overnight, throw the car off the road, then guess what ... try to sue you for them being an *******!

okay ... went off on a tangent there, so let me stop! i hope you see what i'm getting at though.

finally, as for the vector, if i'm not mistaken they were automatic, and like silverrocket said, they were in trouble. and as for bricklins, hmmm ... never heard of 'em! so either i need to read more about cars, or not enough people bought them for anyone to care to write about them.

jeez ... am i the only one that feels like a politician now?

SilverRocket

That's the right attitude - build it for yourself, and be happy with what you've done. You'll be one of the heroes of the forum without question. After you've got one all nice, and feasible plans to build the rest of them, take it from there.

As for preaching the knowledge I scraped up from my introductory finance courses, don't worry, I'm pretty much just shooting my mouth off I don't mean to suggest that you lack knowledge of such topics, I just like spreading mine around

I really don't know enough (or actually... anything lol) about such a project to analyse anything, so I'll stop now. All I'm trying to say is, in regards to the building of the additional 99 cars, approach any such endeavour with a critical eye and a degree of skepticism, even when it's your own idea. Don't let your dreams get in the way of objectivity. But you know this stuff...

Manntis

diabolical1, your points are all excellent ones, but that's EXACTLY why I think there's a market for 99 copies of what I'm proposing (one for myself, after all)

With all mainstream manufacturers building heavy 'sports' cars there's a niche for pure machines. This is why the Lotus Elise and Atom Rocket sell, despite being small, cramped, loud, and otherwise uncomfortable.

I'm striving to combine the fun and excitement of a four-wheeled-cycle with the comfort that the fb chassis affords.

An analogy is the superexotic class: Back in the day people bought Ferraris that broke all the time and Lamborghinis that looked pretty but would give you a charley horse just sitting in the awkward things, and "that's jest the way it iz" - until Acura came out with the NSX, a fast car that you can drive every day and love.

Okay, my proposal is far under the superexotic radar, but that's the point. If I can construct a nice little land rocket with real weather protection on a superb but overlooked chassis like the fb, I create something fun while sidestepping crash testing etc.

As to liability, I'm not an automotive manufacturer, I'd be a guy selling a modified 1985 GSL-SE - a used vehicle (previously registered VIN), albeit highly modified, sold as-is.

You've never heard of Bricklins? they're gull-winged cars from the 70's that failed because they started building them before design was finalized. Malcolm Bricklin, knowing nothing about cars, just decided he wanted to have a car company. Sort of a Ross Perot of the automotive world.

Manntis

I have to say I'm impressed with the words of support, and even more impressed by the good manners of those of you who think what I'm on about is foolish. Whether you agree/want one/disagree/think I'm crackers you're all keeping things in a conversational tone. I've seen forums where flame wars start over the silliest things and this is refreshing.

...and if I build my car I'll be as happy as Michelle Pfeifer's underpants.

SuperPhly

Hmm, speaking of gull wing... j/k

I think know what this guy is after here... although doing 100 of them may give you some legal issues... but that's all "to be determined". Lets stop talking about "why not" and start focusing on "how".

If you don't have anything nice to say about this wonderful idea... then just let us be.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

hehehe! that's funny ... ross perot of cars, eh? i guess this malcolm bricklin was the john delorean of the 70's?

anyway, well, i guess i thought you were trying to do this on a larger scale than you actually were thinking. for that, i apologize.

it's still risky business (and that still won't stop people from trying to sue ... ahem ... this is the land of dumb-*** lawsuits; e.g. hot coffee being "hot")

but hey, go for it then. build one mule do what you have to do with, when you tally up all the receipts then take it from there ... just for the hell of it, if i were you, i'd still try to see if mazda would lend any support to your project, but yeah ... do it then! lord knows i've always wanted to build a car, but life hasn't put me where i think i need to be yet, so ...

as i said, i'd offer any ideas that you might deem helpful, all you have to is ask (and no, i'm not canvasing for a cut or anything). i just like the idea of building something.

so ... good luck with it, eh!

Manntis

That's another cool thing about being based in Canada. We're less litigious

You mentioned not knowing if someone will pay for live axle/watts linkage. You must have overlooked the part about putting in an IRS (independant rear suspension) Then again cameros and mustangs have solid axles and for some reason people think they're sports cars.

and yeah, I can't believe someone actually successfully sued McDonalds for selling coffee that's hot. What next, a lawsuit against their milkshakes claiming it discriminates against the lactose intolerant?