Spinner-D(eluxe)

I have been told to remove my rear sway bar for better traction in the rear, and to reduce the tail happy feeling of the 1st Gen's. I have an 84 GSL-SE. Is this really advisable?

I'm on Kumho ECSTA 712 right now with 16x7 O.Z. Italy wheels but will be switching to Kumho V700's on 13x8 wheels soon. I think I have stock springs still, and I think I have GAB shocks (bought the car a year ago, and don't know what was done as far as suspension if anything). Can't see all the writing, but I see a "Ga..." on the rear shock. The car feels really stiff even so.


Opinions on removing the rear bar Please...

Thanks,

Derek

peejay

It depends of if you think the stock handling is a problem.

Personally I think the car understeers too much, as such the bar is staying put.

inittab

Your rex understeers? I can't imagine. I can flip the **** end of my rex by just thinking about it.

inittab

I say remove it! This might be hard to do if your end-links and bushings are old so I'd suggest replacing them. New hardware will make it much easier to take it on and off for test runs. And please.... let us know your findings.

Good luck!

DriveFast7

iTrader: (1)

When I autocrossed the car, a few things I noticed was:

1. The stock front alignment of 1degree positive camber and not much caster made the front end push like a pig thru the corners. Very little traction. I realigned it to 1 degree negative camber and as much caster I could get. Toe out about 1/8". MUCH better front traction.

2. The rear is tail happy. Disconnected the rear bar and took her out to autox and the rear didn't pitch out as much. This added to the realignment of the front end GREATLY IMPROVED the cars handeling.

These two items are cheap and easy to do and within the means of a new autocrosser.

3. Besides all that, all the usual rear end binding was going on after the rear suspension compresses. I'm sure this has been discussed here before. I installed a panhard rod and had a tri-link made and now the rear end geometry is less binding and much better.

You can get some decent times with 1&2&Eibach Pro-Kit springs and the Gab or Tokico adjustable shocks, and still remain very streetable. The kumho's will really help your lap times too.

I know having someone suggest to remove the rear sway bar to have the car handle better sounds weird. The old Corvette road racers used to disconnect both sway bars!

Brad

Insurgent

i saw on the protege forum someone who tried it with their protege and said that is was worse off then on, but i think they removed the front to or something

Keaponlaffen

I can whip the back end right around on my car in the rain just by turning the wheel about half way, and if I crank on it good around a sharp corner, I'll spin 180 degrees or more. Just ask my g/f what happens when I get throttle happy on wet roads...

1st gear - take off, spin constantly
2nd gear - speed shift into, continue spinning, except turning corner... progresssed to ***-end slid right around backwards... I wanted to go the other direction anyways.... Maybe it's my lack of experience driving the rex in the rain... (I live in a semi-desert, so not much rain)

Jeff

peejay

On my Subaru I removed the front bar and it was great... But that's 4wd, not RWD, and the suspension on that car had its own little quirks...

My argument for the rear 'bar is that it helps keep the rear axle out of the bind zone. And then when you eliminate the bind by eliminating the upper links with a tri-link, you need to also switch to a Panhard which lowers the roll center, and having the lower roll center means you need more suspension stiffness because the car has more leverage against the suspension.

No matter how you slice it, I'm keeping the bar on

genrex

How about keeping the rear bar, and installing a larger-diameter front bar?

Kill No Cone

iTrader: (6)

I think that Drivefast7 has it right.
Correct the frt alighnment (camber/caster plates can help with this) and toss the rear bar.

Good luck

REVHED

I've tried driving without the rear bar when I had the stock front bar and also with a larger front bar... I hated it. Way too much body roll and understeer for my liking. And before you ask, my front end geometry is correct.

1st7heaven

I have done a ton of autocrossing with the 1st gen(the only car there is, right?) and I recommend removing the rear bar. What I have found is that by removing it the rear will drift much less, much slower, and much more controlled. If you leave it on, the rear snapps out fast and your out of control at that point. I think it is what the driver prefers. Just remember, either way you have to get used to! my .02 I hope nobody gets tired of me posting my project, if you do tell me to quit putting this link! http://members.cardomain.com/7heaven

Spinner-D(eluxe)

Well I have decided to just try both ways. I already have auto-xed the car 3 times with the bar on, and compared to the 3rd Gen I used to have the tail is much more predictable and easy to control even when in a long drift. SO I really don't feel like i need to remove it, but if i can be faster with it off it's worth a try.

I am thinking tires are more of a factor than the rear bar when it comes to the tail flicking out abruptly with no warning. ALso my 1st gen is lightened/gutted and is probably no more than 2200lbs. The battery is also relocated to the rear behind where the passanger seat would go, and I have no passanger seat.

yayarx7

I would think that the best of all worlds would be the largest front bar you can find/afford and the stock rear. That would keep your rear out of bind more and stiffen the front, which would be like removing your rear bar.

1st7heaven

Hey spinner, are you running FP? I am running FP I am at 1900lbs.....YEEEHHHAAAAAA!!!! The new motor I am shooting for 275-300hp at the rear wheel, wont know until it gets on a dyno. I running a bridgeport, 48 webber, quartermaster dual disc, electric water pump, lightened/balanced rotors and shaft. Should have a thumper when it is done! Anyway, I think it is all in the way you drive as to with or with out rear sway bar. One way to lighten the front end is the Mazda Comp. speedway style swaybar. This thing weighs about half of the biggest front bar you can buy. It is made up of the aluminum end links with a chromolly tube with different wall thicknesses for different stiffness.

adssoccer

i've only had the rex since november and have only been to two autox. as you can see, i got the rb spring/sway bar package, and as of now, im not going to take off the rear bar seeing i spent a $$$ on a new adjustable one anyway. i learned to autox in a 95 vette for the last 2 or 3 years, so this may cloud my opinion because it was so so easy to get the back around on the car (i spun nearly every weekend with oversteer). with my current suspension package (front end not correctly aligned. . .yet) on kumho ecsta v700s on 13x8s, i have not noticed any outlandish oversteer. i have my rear bar on a very loose setting, and i have relatively low rear tire pressures, but the handling was quite neutral. i love the way the rear rotates under braking around a hair pin. my opinion is, better to have oversteer than understeer. A-more fun B-if you do it right it's faster C-it's more fun

Spinner-D(eluxe)

I'm sorry I am not familiar with the acronym FP? If you got your car down to 1900lbs mine might be lighter than I thought. Check out these pictures:

http://www.visi.com/~derek/images/My84RX-7GSLSE.jpg

http://www.visi.com/~derek/images/dash.jpg

http://www.visi.com/~derek/images/rx7batterybox.jpg

http://www.visi.com/~derek/images/drivers_seat.jpg

http://www.visi.com/~derek/images/NoDash.jpg


I have the battery box instalation done, and all wired up, and i have the dash in with my tach working. Speedometer is next as soon as i get my custom made tang and coupler from Speedometer Services in WI. I just ordered 13x8 Diamond racing wheels direct at $288 shiped!!! What a deal! I also ordered Kumho V700's for the wheels. SHould be fun to auto-x. I've only raced once before on race rubber, and that was in a grand am.

YOur project looks fantastic! I love Carbon fibre (the dash looks good!)

1st7heaven

FP=F Prepared, the class I run in. I think your car would qualify for FP. You have to go to this class once you gut the inside or do anything internal to the motor. Otherwise you would be in CSP(C Street Prepared) you have to run stock motor, any intake, any size wheel, any exhaust, must have the interior in it, must have a passanger seat.......some other details I cant think of right now.


I have Lexan window in the car, 5 gal fuel cell, no bumpers- just skins. Also, I spent 2 weeks scraping the tar off of the floor boards.....all sound deadner = 18lbs.

Thats quite a dash!!!

Looks like a great beginning Those diamonds are a great deal for what we do with them!!!

adssoccer

i just went for a drive, and i like what i said before. with the balance between shocks, springs, and f and r swaybars, the car is not tail happy by any means

Spinner-D(eluxe)

Wow you have done a lot more than me to your car, but I wonder how much the cage in your car adds (75-100lbs)?

So is FP an SCCA class? I havn't done any SCCA auto-x's in this car yet. I have been running in the North West club called WWSCC (Wester Washington Sports Car Council) and the class is called B Prepared.

DriveFast7

iTrader: (1)

When I had the Suspension Technicques non-adjustable front and rear sway bars on the car, I really liked the reduced roll. The car felt tight in the turns on the street. Then I took the car out to willow springs raceway and the rear end was real twitchy and instructors driving it said to be real careful with it on the track.

Disconnected rear bar and it didn't snap-oversteer as much. I guess it boils down to trying it out on a real race track pushing it hard (100mph sweeper and quick left-right-left turns) to learn about real oversteer, and driver preference.

BradP

Montrealer

i tried removing the rear bar on a stock suspension and hated it, I dont know if it would have been faster or not but it felt sloppy, on top of that, it made my front sway bar link brake (i'm assuming it was finished anyway).

My final setup, which was quite neutral, was the stock front bar with polyurethane bushings, and an ajustable rear bar ajusted to the lowest setting.


side note:

My current setup i run without a rear bar, but i have 350 Lbs/in in the front and 200 in the rear. I am loving it and the results are amazing (still a little soft for my liking), just need to get the panhard bar and tri-link to reduce the rear binding...

Spinner-D(eluxe)

Sorry for restarting this thread, but I have been looking at my front sway bar now and can't figure out how to get it off without taking off those huge brackets which the front control links (Caster Rods or whatever) connect too. Help!!!

Spinner-D(eluxe)

Nevermind. I guess the manual shows taking it all off. SO much for a simple removal like a 3rd Gen Bar.

abeomid

Yeah just take the rear out and fix the alignment in the front. Adding a bigger bar in front helps quite a bit too.