Rack and pinion power steering ideas
06-11-07, 11:32 AM
#1
Great Scott!
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Rack and pinion power steering ideas
Hello! I'm new here, but not new to mechanics or RX-7s; having owned a gsl-se for several years. My stock power steering pump has sprung a leak and upon further inspection it seems that due to the way it is built putting new seals in it would only be futile as at this point it would probably spring a leak just a couple thousand miles down the road. Instead of overhauling the system it occurred to me it might be a good idea to look into upgrading and replacing the system. In order to put a power assisted rack and pinion in it is going to take a decent amount of fab work, but i"m willing to put the time in. My question is if I could get information from anyone else who has attempted this and any conclusions anyone else has about the project. I have searched the forums a bit and I found something about using a VW Rabbit setup but found (I believe) that it was not and could not be powered. If I could get more info about that it would be awesome as that sounded like a promising project to springboard off of. I could get no pictures off the thread and the website links in the thread are all dead now so any information anyone has woul dbe a great help before I get started.
06-11-07, 11:40 AM
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Right near Malloy
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Whilst pushing my GSL into a garage, I had the lightest of three people present, my buddie's girlfriend sit in the driver's seat while my buddy and I pushed the car.
Not moving, with underinflated tires, in dirt, affected by frint end damage and bad alignment, and with a smaller aftermarket steering wheel, she was able to turn the wheels effectively.
Did I mention she's normally in a wheelchair? These cars are light enough, you don't need power steering.
If you really want to though, I think the best way would be to have gone with the VW setup and modify it for power.
Alternatively, you can replace the front crossmember with an FC crossmember and use the whole second gen front suspension... You'd also have to fab up engine mounts though, as eliminating the FB crossmember means you lose the front engine mounts.
Not moving, with underinflated tires, in dirt, affected by frint end damage and bad alignment, and with a smaller aftermarket steering wheel, she was able to turn the wheels effectively.
Did I mention she's normally in a wheelchair? These cars are light enough, you don't need power steering.
If you really want to though, I think the best way would be to have gone with the VW setup and modify it for power.
Alternatively, you can replace the front crossmember with an FC crossmember and use the whole second gen front suspension... You'd also have to fab up engine mounts though, as eliminating the FB crossmember means you lose the front engine mounts.
06-11-07, 11:52 AM
#3
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EH.. I don't like the whole replace half your front end with a second gen idea I've heard of that one, but that causes more problems for me then it fixes. Perhaps I should change over to mechanical... Any more info on the VW setup?
06-11-07, 12:05 PM
#4
The rack from an 80s VW rabbit was adapted for use by a shop here in Canada... the setup was *okay* but the double-u-joint rig that was needed to connect the steering arm to the input shaft of the rack made for a not-entirely-linear feel to the wheel. And it didn't have as tight of a turning radius, and a little more lock-to-lock movement... and the shop sucked so they went out of business methinks. But the idea was alright.
The problem is that you need a "rear steer" rack for our cars, but most cars have front steer. If you use a front steer rack in our cars, you'd have to turn the wheel left to go right, or turn it right to go left. I'm sure you could train yourself to do it, but don't lend your car to anyone, lol.
Steering is one of the unfortunate places where aftermarket improvements aren't currently available for our cars. This may change in the future but for now you're probably better off just getting all the parts you need from blackdragonauto.com to rebuild your rack as a manual, though you'll probably want the steering box from another 7 instead of brand new. They're bloody expensive.
Manual steering isn't that hard. Once the car is moving, you don't notice the difference much. I actually prefer it because you have a better feel of the wheels.
Jon
The problem is that you need a "rear steer" rack for our cars, but most cars have front steer. If you use a front steer rack in our cars, you'd have to turn the wheel left to go right, or turn it right to go left. I'm sure you could train yourself to do it, but don't lend your car to anyone, lol.
Steering is one of the unfortunate places where aftermarket improvements aren't currently available for our cars. This may change in the future but for now you're probably better off just getting all the parts you need from blackdragonauto.com to rebuild your rack as a manual, though you'll probably want the steering box from another 7 instead of brand new. They're bloody expensive.
Manual steering isn't that hard. Once the car is moving, you don't notice the difference much. I actually prefer it because you have a better feel of the wheels.
Jon
06-11-07, 12:37 PM
#6
A little more gas pedal and swing that baby around ... no problems there with rear wheel drive. lol
On a more serious note, Billy from ReSpeed is actually currently working on a design for a rack and pinion, been doing so for about a year a think. The main reason that people would want to upgrade to the rack in pinion is mostly due to the wondersteer I think they call, where you turn so much and your wheels aren't turning yet (If you race one of these cars, can be annoying as you wants the steering to be as responsive as possible.)
Seeing ReSpeed's other products .. he really does make some quality stuff.
On a more serious note, Billy from ReSpeed is actually currently working on a design for a rack and pinion, been doing so for about a year a think. The main reason that people would want to upgrade to the rack in pinion is mostly due to the wondersteer I think they call, where you turn so much and your wheels aren't turning yet (If you race one of these cars, can be annoying as you wants the steering to be as responsive as possible.)
Seeing ReSpeed's other products .. he really does make some quality stuff.
06-11-07, 02:11 PM
#7
Ford Festiva uses a rack and pinion, and is rear steer. A guy with a ford courier was looking into that but nothing done.
I think whatever rack someone comes up with should still have a good factory or aftermarket parts market. 1st gen steering box parts are almost nonexistant and I looked recently for stuff for REPU - nada.
I think whatever rack someone comes up with should still have a good factory or aftermarket parts market. 1st gen steering box parts are almost nonexistant and I looked recently for stuff for REPU - nada.
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06-11-07, 02:27 PM
#8
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I am also looking for options as my '85 GSL SE's steering box is all but worn out. The local mazda dealership wants $1000 (cdn) for a new one, and I've found a used one for 425. I'd rather go with the new one as I want it to be as tight as possible, but that's a lot of dough.
If anyone has seen any other options that are reasonable, please pm me.
Cheers
If anyone has seen any other options that are reasonable, please pm me.
Cheers
06-11-07, 04:00 PM
#11
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Mazdatrix. That's why I was so pissed when, after buying this not insubstantial item, he turned into a jerk on my second order.
He also repackaged the steering box in a box almist twice the size in every dimension, so I paid beaucoup shipping and duties hence the $850 total.
He did the same to Matt with bushings - repackaged the (already padded) boxes in a huge box with even more packing foam. 'Cept in Matt's case he'd cancelled the order for non-fulfillment, then a week later Mazdatrix billed his credit card anyhow and shipped the cancelled order.
I have the name of the dealer somewhere that Mazdatrix bought the steering box from - odds are he jsut gets a quantity discount. Find out if your local dealer offers any sort of car club discount; you may be able to get 15% off and end up paying the same as if you'd bought from mazdatrix, but without all the hassle and bull.
He also repackaged the steering box in a box almist twice the size in every dimension, so I paid beaucoup shipping and duties hence the $850 total.
He did the same to Matt with bushings - repackaged the (already padded) boxes in a huge box with even more packing foam. 'Cept in Matt's case he'd cancelled the order for non-fulfillment, then a week later Mazdatrix billed his credit card anyhow and shipped the cancelled order.
I have the name of the dealer somewhere that Mazdatrix bought the steering box from - odds are he jsut gets a quantity discount. Find out if your local dealer offers any sort of car club discount; you may be able to get 15% off and end up paying the same as if you'd bought from mazdatrix, but without all the hassle and bull.
06-11-07, 05:41 PM
#12
steering
I for one absolutely hate the 1st gen steering. It's the steering setup designed for a truck.
I'm going to convert mine over to front steer by switching the steering arms (converting it to front steer) or custom fabricating a set myself. There are several aftermarket rack and pinions that are the correct length with much faster ratios than anything stock. Using a bump steer kit from Jegs it shouldn't be that hard to get the geometry right. It's going to involve some custom brackets but I'm hoping for a single universal joint which should make the steering wonderful compared to the stock setup.
ReSpeed also is supposed to be working on a setup but I haven't heard anything about it yet.
I'll keep you posted on my progress.
I'm going to convert mine over to front steer by switching the steering arms (converting it to front steer) or custom fabricating a set myself. There are several aftermarket rack and pinions that are the correct length with much faster ratios than anything stock. Using a bump steer kit from Jegs it shouldn't be that hard to get the geometry right. It's going to involve some custom brackets but I'm hoping for a single universal joint which should make the steering wonderful compared to the stock setup.
ReSpeed also is supposed to be working on a setup but I haven't heard anything about it yet.
I'll keep you posted on my progress.
06-11-07, 06:54 PM
#13
Savanna Rx-7
FC crossmember
Maybe I am just stupid, but I really do not understnd why everybody wants to re-engineer soemthing that already exists.... the FC crossmember is in hindsight one fo the easiest steering conversons I have ever done, litterally it took me less than 3 days to get the actual crossmember mounted, and all of the rest of the time was my procrastinating about the project.
Pros:
lots of FC parts available
power or manual, your choice
makes dropping a 13bt in a breeze
gets bigger brakes with the package
cons:
have to make new motor mounts if keeping the 12a setup
you no longer have an excuse for missing the turns at the track
you will be spoiled in short order and refuse to own an SA or FB without it !
kenn
Pros:
lots of FC parts available
power or manual, your choice
makes dropping a 13bt in a breeze
gets bigger brakes with the package
cons:
have to make new motor mounts if keeping the 12a setup
you no longer have an excuse for missing the turns at the track
you will be spoiled in short order and refuse to own an SA or FB without it !
kenn
06-11-07, 07:30 PM
#14
Maybe I am just stupid, but I really do not understnd why everybody wants to re-engineer soemthing that already exists.... the FC crossmember is in hindsight one fo the easiest steering conversons I have ever done, litterally it took me less than 3 days to get the actual crossmember mounted, and all of the rest of the time was my procrastinating about the project.
Pros:
lots of FC parts available
power or manual, your choice
makes dropping a 13bt in a breeze
gets bigger brakes with the package
cons:
have to make new motor mounts if keeping the 12a setup
you no longer have an excuse for missing the turns at the track
you will be spoiled in short order and refuse to own an SA or FB without it !
kenn
Pros:
lots of FC parts available
power or manual, your choice
makes dropping a 13bt in a breeze
gets bigger brakes with the package
cons:
have to make new motor mounts if keeping the 12a setup
you no longer have an excuse for missing the turns at the track
you will be spoiled in short order and refuse to own an SA or FB without it !
kenn
06-11-07, 07:52 PM
#15
Savanna Rx-7
I would really like to know what billy is using as a base. A hybrid FC would be nice ... or really any old ford because lets face it alot more stuff are still made for them and pretty good quality .. and don't even argue about that...[/QUOTE]
no worries, I happen to be a Ford Fanatic anyways, so a t-bird rack I think would be nice if you can get around the front steer rear steer worries.
kenn
no worries, I happen to be a Ford Fanatic anyways, so a t-bird rack I think would be nice if you can get around the front steer rear steer worries.
kenn
06-12-07, 02:33 AM
#16
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I have the ability to do the 2nd gen sub frame swap and I am really thinking about it, it offers a couple of other benefits for me as well as I just realized it sits slightly lower (I think?) then the -SE suspension. Anyone done a write up for a swap into a SE that I can scan over before jumping in. BTW would anyone be interested in me chronicling my conversion if I go through with it and/or fabricating extra parts etc. to help the less talented or less experienced out?
06-12-07, 10:12 AM
#18
We have gone through many revisions as well as thought processes to get to this point. When the unit is ready for customer sales I can assure you there will be nothing like it on the market. It will not be a cobbled up solution.
-billy
06-12-07, 12:44 PM
#22
I'm 100% sure that it will be an awesome product, everything else you make seems to be very well thought out and made with care. In the end your setup will be better than anything I could piece together in my home shop, I guess i'm just getting tired of the shitty steering in my daily driver, especiall now that it sees much more highway use than it used to, its all over the place. Is there any kind of ETA for the rp kit yet or are you still ironing out the bugs?
Sorry you feel that way. As I am sure you are aware, this is not something we can through together. If we did, it would turn into the same situation as the last option.
We have gone through many revisions as well as thought processes to get to this point. When the unit is ready for customer sales I can assure you there will be nothing like it on the market. It will not be a cobbled up solution.
-billy
We have gone through many revisions as well as thought processes to get to this point. When the unit is ready for customer sales I can assure you there will be nothing like it on the market. It will not be a cobbled up solution.
-billy
06-12-07, 06:26 PM
#23
Savanna Rx-7
If you are less mechanically inclined, then waiting for the RE Speed unit is definitely the way to go, everything I have bought from Billy is top shelf stuff.
I personally could have made many of the items myself, but with the quality and the quick turnaround (not to mention spectacular customer service) it just made it easier just to order from billy's shop.
the FC crossmember swap is great if you plan to put a 13bt in, as you can swap over the entire wireing harness and get all of the goodies with it. but if you are planning on staying with the 12a, it then presents a whole different range of cahllenges to be surmounted.
kenn
I personally could have made many of the items myself, but with the quality and the quick turnaround (not to mention spectacular customer service) it just made it easier just to order from billy's shop.
the FC crossmember swap is great if you plan to put a 13bt in, as you can swap over the entire wireing harness and get all of the goodies with it. but if you are planning on staying with the 12a, it then presents a whole different range of cahllenges to be surmounted.
kenn
06-13-07, 10:53 AM
#24
I have the mechanical ability to do such a thing, but with limited time to work on my project car I figured I'd put my efforts into the rust repair and T2 swap portion of things. I'm sure billy's steering setup will be top notch and well worth the wait. 
