BlackWorksInc

Flipping through the archives, I noticed that there isn't one substantial thread on Rack & Pinion Steering possibilities for our cars.

All I found were threads that tried to start the idea and became overrun with publicizing the RE Steering Kit. Now I honestly don't think that's a bad thing... but some of us aren't strapped with cash. I mean I can get a hold of a complete Miata Steering for $25 and I'm sure I could find another type cheaper at the junkyard.

So my question is this; What cars would be minimal work to swap the rack & pinion over from? I mean our cars are 20+ years old, I'm sure there has to be some old school tricks out there.

I constantly read that the Miata Rack & Pinion is "forward steer," what does that mean? I always figured that either your front wheels turn or all of them turn.

But yeah, can we try and put our heads together and think of a possible alternative to a $700 investment that most guys can't afford?


Let's please try and stay away from the fate of these other threads and not bog it down with RE Speed Kit Testimonials? Its not that I don't like it, just that it is fairly pointless to post it when the whole purpose of the thread is to find an alternative.

justint5387

iTrader: (1)

Forward steer means the pitman arm is in front of the steering link. Our car pitman arm is behind the link. I think some people used old VW rabbit rack and pinion on the FB before.

dj55b

iTrader: (2)

or just did a whole front cross member swap from a second gen and tossed it in there.

BlackWorksInc

That's all? O.o Then why not use a longer steering shaft or simply make an adapter shaft like they do on some modern cars. Just a shaft with a u joint to adjust for components in the way.

Yeah, I saw that as well. Something like old VW Rabbit racks or something. Whata bout the Fox Body (and I use this term loosely with these cars) "Mustang" racks? did anyone ever make any progress on experimenting with them?

I like the way this is starting off though! Lets keep it up guys!

BlackWorksInc

Okay after looking through some diagrams of the Miata and the Haynes manual for the steering set-up...



It looks like what you really need to make the rack work is new mounts for steering, now correct me if I am wrong. I can't see a straight front frame of an RX7 since mine is currently out of commission; but if you look at this picture of the Miata front suspension, the whole rack bolts to the subframe like a swaybar... so in essence couldn't you just fabricate mounts on the RX7's frame?

That way you can move the rack where you need it and avoid the whole problem of the front biased pitman arms.

The only problem I can think of is that I don't know what would be in that general area in the car and so what might rub/get in the way.

Kentetsu

You would also have to come up with different steering knuckles. The ones on our cars point toward the back of the car, but on the miata they point toward the front of the car. I'm talking about the point where the tie rod ends would hook up to the hubs.

Mounting the actual rack doesn't look like it would be too difficult to do, its just all the other little pieces involved. And then, you still won't know if you've got decent geometry from the whole thing.

BlackWorksInc

Good point on that, I was looking at the set-up for our cars, I think that the knuckle wouldn't be an issue depending on how you mount the rack, but you're comment on the geometry has me thinking...

Kentetsu

If you combine a front mount rack with the stock (rear facing) steering knuckles, you would have to turn the steering wheel to the right in order to make a left hand turn. I imagine that could get confusing....

djessence

You would just have to have the biker mentality, turn right to go left.

Just dont ever let anyone borrow your car....

Re-Speed.com

iTrader: (3)

We applaud your efforts. Just getting after it and making things work is how I started, 15 years ago. I like to see people willing to try things.

The fox chassis rack is what we use. It is a good choice. The second gen subframe swap would seem to be the easiest to pursue on your own. It does have some problems you will need to sort out though, and in the end I am not sure it would be much cheaper. If you think about it - second gen sub frame will only mount a second gen style motor mount. The steering arms are built onto the uprights (or spindles). This means you will need second gen struts as well. What is a complete second gen front end going to cost?

Any front steer setup is going to require stay rod replacement..ie...new lower control arm pickups. Proper steering arms. A Rack with enough offset to clear to motor. Proper rack length.

Rear steer makes thing much easier for a do it yourself build up. There is less for you to re-engineer. Rack length will still be critical, but the rest of the stock pieces will work out. Fair warning on rear steer though. We never found a suitable rack and u-joint for a rear steer setup. I personally spent 4 months working on a rear setup and eventually scrapped it and we went front steer.

Again, I do not want to discourage you just want to to realize there are big hurdles to overcome.


-billy

82transam

iTrader: (18)

Demonspawn, I see you've only been on here since Fall of 07 so you probably haven't heard much about a company that used to exist called CP racing, they were the ones who made a rack/pinion kit using the VW rabbit rack, its rear steer and used all the stock suspension components... I number of people on here bought it and while having no free play in the center as nice they all complained about it not returning to center properly and apparently the turning radius was increased over stock. All in all I think the people who got the kit were satisfied enough to keep it but they werent loving it.
Anyway, my point is this, if you really feel the need to do this yourself and don't want to buy the RE-speed kit (which I have and is awesome) you might want to do some searching around for threads with pics of the CP kit and try to copy it or something. I forget his username, but one of the guys who drifts on here was able to copy it quite easily....
I was in the middle of doing my own rp conversion when RE-speed announced they were making one so I scrapped the idea, good luck with yours though, you might come up with something you really like!

Re-Speed.com

iTrader: (3)

I believe that was because there wasn't another option and you had to modify stock parts to install the kit. Hard to revert back to stock because of it. I know of 6 of our kits that were replacements for "other" rack kits.


The rear steer setup brings one thing to mind for you, Demon. One of the problems with the rear steer rack was the angle of the u-joint. It was used at to much of and angle. This caused the binding most saw. Non racing u-joints have 28 degrees of angle before they bind. You will need to look into double u-joints or multiple joints to keep the angles of each down.

BTW, a good starting point would be to grab a few suspension books and read up on Ackerman and Bump Steer. A conversion that fixes the sloppy steering but replaces it with bad geometry is going put you further behind.

-billy

BlackWorksInc

Thanks guys!

I heard of CP Racing from some of the older threads, but never knew their full line of products.
Thanks for the advice and help Billy, It means a lot. If I had the money I'd just go buy your kit and save myself the trouble, I'm really looking for an intermediate solution that will work okay.

Thanks guys, I am going to go ahead and do some more research and see what I can dig up. I found a frame measurement page in my haynes manual and I'd been looking at some subframe from RX8's for a future intensive project I had in mind...

But I will look into the VW racks and some other similar cars, once again thanks for all the help. Keep posting if you guys get any ideas.

dj55b

iTrader: (2)

in all honesty, i believe that maybe if you just replace all the worn out stock steering components, it might just be your better thing to do then trying to re- engineer things. I really don't think that you can do it as cheaply as you might think.

REVHED

The steering really is not that bad when you replace any worn components and properly adjust the steering box.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the other issue with a rear steer rack is that theres nowhere to mount it, the subframe is in the front....

Slammed_GSL

iTrader: (14)

I copied the CP racing VW conversion kit and it has worked well, I purchased a complete 84 Rabbit Manual Rack with steering column and u-joint for $100, I had to fab/weld custom tie rods that connect to the mazda steering to the Rabbit rack. This entailed cutting brand new VW tie rods, cutting half a dual threaded 1st Gen steering rod, one for each side. Butt welding to the cut VW tie rod. Fabing a mounting frame and welding it to the VW rack, creating mounting points that work with the stock holes where the old 1st Gen steering components were.
Then cutting the stock column tube, cutting the lower collapseable steering rod, butt welding the VW lower column end to the 1st Gen column rod to mate to the VW u-joint, create a support for the column, re used the VW column bearing to keep the column centered and free from bind, drilled the new column connection in the car, and install a cold press pin to keep the the 2 steering column components from sliding free.
Also argued with Les Schwab about alingment without liability.
It has worked for 4 years now, I have bent (my welds never break) one custom welded tie rod drifting at Evergreen Speedway and had to make a new one, not an over the counter part.....
Total cost:$300 for all the parts used

Yes you can do it, you need mad fab/welding skills and a well supported workshop with all the right tools.
It took me 10 hours to fab up and drive away.
I made mine because I broke the top steering adjustment stud on my stock steering trying to get rid of the play. Be careful and know what your are doing...I didn't.

I am purchasing one of Respeeds Kits, it's a very well thought out product and has off the shelf replacement parts (no "one off" stuff to fab up each time you break something).


Good luck on making one!
Here are some pics of the CP rack, version 2 by another forum member.

dyoungre

One other potential rear steer rack is from a dodge omni. Frankly, i'm really impressed with the packaging you showed, slammed GSL!

BlackWorksInc

I was strolling through a pick-n-pull today trying to get replacement parts of the Blazer (see my "It's Dead" thread if you have to ask... ) And I came accross a couple of first gen MR2's and a second gen.

Just for the hell of it, I gave them a little lookisee and found something interesting... They're rear steer, and they have to be fairly close in width to our cars.

Maybe another possible donor? I see a lot of them when I go to the pick-n-pulls.

dbragg

iTrader: (7)

i was under a 240sx the other day. i know you can use their crossmember when swapping in a SR20DET. they are also rear steer. maybe you can swap he whole crossmember and rack. then youd have a SR20 and R&P.

just an idea.

Kentetsu

Did you grab the Efans off the MR2s while you were there?

kurpluck

Has anyone considered the sand rail option? The first VW Bugs were rear steer spindles, both the king-pin and ball joint front ends. Most VW shops/ Sand buggy shops have multiple rack and pinion steering kits with custom length rods and steering ratios. They look really simple.