IanS

iTrader: (4)

Car is the FB in sig.

OK, so some back story - Put the car away for a while for some work needing done. Replaced diff and axle bearings, sealed fuel tank, and replaced ball joints.

Now for the new problem that arose.

When I turn the key to ON, everything powers up as it should (fuel pump, all the dash lights that should, etc). When I turn the key to START, the tested good starter attempts to crank but seems as if it cant or just wont. I have actually tried a different starter as well and same issue. Attempts to crank and sometimes does VERY slowly but then starts to click as if the battery is low. I have tried a known good (tested) brand new battery and a different one from my FC that has enough power to start the car every time I try.

Should also mention that I can turn the engine over by hand and the engine does not seem to be binding up.

Some of the weird stuff that seems to happen - When I attempt to crank for a few seconds I notice that the clutch hydraulic line (plastic wrapped stainless steel braided one from MazdaTrix) gets VERY hot. So hot in fact that the plastic wrapping that is supposed to keep it clean starts to smoke and melt if I attempt to start the car more than twice (a few seconds each time).

Also, the battery cables are not getting hot. Kind of seems like a bad ground or a pinched wire somewhere but no wiring was messed with doing the previously mentioned work. Just in case, I have looked around and I have not seen any corroded or pinched wires anywhere.

Ideas? Would it be worth a shot running a new ground wire directly from the starter ground wire (where the brush connects) to the ground on battery?

Thanks to any/all help in advance.

mazdaverx713b

iTrader: (91)

Ian, make sure you are getting a proper ground to the starter. a poor ground is a fire waiting to happen. also check for voltage at the starter solenoid when cranking the engine and check for proper voltage when the key is switched on.

as you know, the clutch hydraulics have nothing to do with anything electrical. the clutch hose getting hot can be a result of a hot wire touching it and causing the sleeve around the braided stainless section to melt. my guess without seeing this in person is faulty wiring. check you battery cabels for continuity.

IanS

iTrader: (4)

Yes I do know that the hydraulics have nothing to do with the electrical system. What I was thinking is that possibly the hydraulic line is (for some reason) the easiest path to ground and since there is such a large draw of power when the starter engages that maybe this is why it is getting hot. I mean, really the clucth slave is mounted very close to the starter.

There arent any wires anywhere near the clutch system that could be shorting. This is why its so weird! lol

I will check the voltages and if that seems ok I think I am going to try to run a wire to the starter ground and hook it to the negative of the battery.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Sounds like a short. The only wires that would rwally do this while cranking is the solenoid trigger wire or the wire that runs from the solenoid to the starter body. Check those to see if they are somehow shorting out.

The other possibilty would be a really bad ground connection on the battery (-) cable where it attaches to the engine block.. If this is disconnected or otherwise poorly connected, the current from the starter will try to find it's way back to the battery..in this case... chassis ground. To get there, it will go through engine/tranny mounts, your SS clutch line, or anything that conducts that is connected to the engine/tranny and the chassis.

So check connections at the starter and the main ground. Pretty much has to be one of these. How old are your cables? Might make sense to replace them while you are down there.

85TIIDEVIL

iTrader: (2)

The EXACT same thing happed to me today... Slow crank as if the battery was real dead. Battery tester said battery was good even at load..? Swapped batteries using my optimum which gave a better load testing, same thing. Swapped starters, same thing. Cleaned battery terminals, same thing. Cleaned connections at starter, same thing. Cleaned the main ground off the battery where it connects at the frame and the motor, walaaaah. Started right up no problem.

Sounds like the steel braided line was acting or trying to act as a new path for ground...

IanS

iTrader: (4)

Thats what I am thinking. My main engine ground is hooked to the alternator bolt. The downside to this is the adjuster bracket is powdercoated (looks good). However, its been this way for a while now. I will however add a new ground wire from starter solenoid ground location to the chassis ground spot. This (I think) should eliminate any bad ground possibilities.

I checked again for any more shorting wires earlier and still didnt find any. The thing that really stumps me is that everything worked fine a few months ago before the car was put away. The battery that was in it went into the FC, so it hasnt had a battery to further corrode connections, although maybe it doesnt matter.

All main power and ground wires have been replaced and upgraded with heavier gauge wires. All grounds are 4 gauge and main power to starter is also 4 gauge. Main power from alt to batt is 8 gauge. I used high quality car audio wires for this. On another note I also upgraded my coil power wires to 12 gauge car audio wire (I use car audio because its softer wire with more strands so it is easier to bend and run and also because it is also 100% copper).

74RX4

iTrader: (10)

I don't understand this statement. The starter (and engine) is grounded when the main negative cable connects to the long bolt that holds the starter on. No brushes of any kind anywhere near it. A jumper cable from the negative battery terminal to this bolt should ensure a good ground. What is your main ground wire from the from the battery connected to?

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

I would run the main (-) to the stock location (bell housing bolt near the starter). It should be connected as close to the starter as possible with a clean/solid connection.

Your current setup may have been marginal, but worked. Maybe a little rust/corrosion built up on the inside of that alt bracket bolt and now you can't easily pass the current. I would go:

battery (-) --> bolt near starter --> chassis ground

You could daisy chain the chassis connection from the starter bolt connection and/or run from the alt bracket bolt (clean up first) to the chassis.

There also might be a poor crimp/connection between your 4 ga wires and the terminals at either end.

mazdaverx713b

iTrader: (91)

also, your negative cable may have corroded inside and be breaking apart, not allowing for a proper ground. the cables are still available from your local dealer and are realitvely inexpensive. why not replace both while you're at it?

Kentetsu

Yeah, the clutch hose is getting hot because the little lost electricals are trying to find a way home. I've heard of throttle cables getting red hot because of this....

IanS

iTrader: (4)

The brush I am talking about is the electrical motor brush. It is replaceable and is grounded using the "other" nut on the starter, not the one you hook up to the positive wire.

Didnt have time to do anything today but will move my engine ground from alternator to starter with Kent's daisy chain idea. Thanks for the help and tips people, its appreciated.

74RX4

iTrader: (10)

That terminal is + 12V. It connects the solenoid to the starter motor. You don't want to connect a ground onto any of the starter terminals. If your main ground wire was going to the alternator and not to the starter, you have found your problem.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Ian,

The wire on that other nut (on the starter solenoid..wire going to starter body) is not a ground. That is for the "hot start" system. That terminal has juice only when the starter is cranking. So if the engine is warm and there is power on that terminal, the hot start assist kicks in to pull the throttle open. There is a fusible link down there for the hot start assist. Maybe this link is what you are calling the 'brush'. Do not ground this terminal! Otherwise you willl have a direct short everytime you try to start the car.

If you have the hot start assist system removed, then you can simply disconnect the wire. This terminal should still have a wire that runs to the body of the starter connected.

IanS

iTrader: (4)

Ahhh, gotcha. Going out to hook up a new ground (not to the other terminal). I'm thinking I will hook it up to the short starter bolt. I'll let you guys know how it goes. Hopefully it works...

*crosses fingers

IanS

iTrader: (4)

Findings - Sooo, apparently there is a buzzer that goes off when the door is open and the key is on??? Thats a new one lol. Also, with the new ground wire hooked up the engine cranks way faster than it ever has before. Also when I run the turn signals the volt meter doesnt move near as much as it used to. So all in all alot of positives came out from this problem. Thanks again guys for the help, it is appreciated.

Next on the list is swapping door hinges, replacing window regulators, and re-installing my stereo system. There's probably some other stuff on the list but I cant think of it all right now.

gsl-se addict

iTrader: (3)

Cool deal.

mazdaverx713b

iTrader: (91)

how does the new ground wire look? what gauge did you end up using?

snwyvern

This thread reminds me-- Does anyone have a comprehensive list of grounds in an SA? The loom diagram in the manual(s) are pretty useless in this regard.

IanS

iTrader: (4)

I used 4 ga since I have a bunch of extra wire from my countless stereo systems in the past.

Kentetsu

Glad you got her figured out Ian... Still hoping you'll be able to make it over for a RX7 meet/Autocross event this year...

IanS

iTrader: (4)

I am too. However, while driving today (very spirited... ahem) I lost a u-joint cap. I say cap but its the part that has the needle bearings in it. Not sure how it flew off, just suddenly it started shaking and made a hell of a noise. Something that you really dont want to happen at 90 mph. Pretty scary. So now I get to fix that.

vipergts_3

iTrader: (9)

good thing you got it figured out. by the time all the problems are fixed you will have done a full resto. lol.