Noise from Rear end...
11-23-09, 02:27 AM
#26
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well, obviously since I said I've done that before (although I wasn't specifically looking for the problem to be fair) I didnt notice anything.
Is the problem the length of the control arms? I can only assume you would need to either lengthen the uppers or shorten the lowers if that is the problem.
Is the problem the length of the control arms? I can only assume you would need to either lengthen the uppers or shorten the lowers if that is the problem.
11-23-09, 08:17 PM
#27
The problem is the legnth, angle, and position of the upper links. They need to be thrown away. It was a bonehead decision by Mazda to use unequal & unparrallel upper links. Just swapping to the gforce 3 link will cure the drive shaft bind and plunge issue. The pinnion is at the wrong angle once the car is lowered. it needs to be at a 3-5* angle (I believe) and once the car has been lowered loweres it's somewhere in the 350* area and torque while driving makes it even worse. I'm pretty sure I made it clear here and so does Jim on his webpage.
http://www.gforceengineering.net/products.htm
You can build your own trilink if you'd like. Jim's is not perfect, but it's the only available option. Drivefast7 built his own trilink.
The problem is not in the legnth of the drive shaft it's the angle of the rear end once you lower the car. the rear end geometry needs to be fixed by making the uper locater on the axle adjustable. if you put heim joints on the stock location upper links it will only increase bind. Hense to redesign mounting points and go with a properly setup 4 link of one that works with Jim susco's trilink.
www.gforceengineering.net
www.gforceengineering.net
You can build your own trilink if you'd like. Jim's is not perfect, but it's the only available option. Drivefast7 built his own trilink.
11-25-09, 12:38 AM
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OK. I've read like 20 threads on this site, and other articles about the problem.
I realize I have two options really:
-ADJ. or shorter Lower control arms. or a Trilink/panhard bar.
I would rather stay with the 4 link honestly. One thing I still haven't been able to find out for sure is this:
Is the Watts linkage going to suck if I leave it how it is currently? (stock w/poly bushings)
Could you replace the stock bars with adj. links there and take it back to a "stock" alignment of the bars? or will there be interference with the chassis?
I know there are guys out there running a lowered car and 4 link. I guess for now I might just raise the rear end back up until I decide for sure what to do.
any other help/suggestions would be great!
I realize I have two options really:
-ADJ. or shorter Lower control arms. or a Trilink/panhard bar.
I would rather stay with the 4 link honestly. One thing I still haven't been able to find out for sure is this:
Is the Watts linkage going to suck if I leave it how it is currently? (stock w/poly bushings)
Could you replace the stock bars with adj. links there and take it back to a "stock" alignment of the bars? or will there be interference with the chassis?
I know there are guys out there running a lowered car and 4 link. I guess for now I might just raise the rear end back up until I decide for sure what to do.
any other help/suggestions would be great!
12-01-09, 11:25 PM
#32
What I ment by new upper links was, redesigned upperlinks. The upper links are unparallel and unequal length. A good 4 link setups have equal length and parallel upper arms. If you were to redeisgn the 4 link setup with some adjustable upper or lower links that would fix the problem, but if you're making the uppers adjustible you might as well redesign them to be at least parallel. And there's no point to going through all that trouble to redesign the 4 link when there's already a "bolt in" option.
There are other things to consider as well. If you only daily drive your car and don't make a lot of power or don't beat the **** out of your car then you're not going to tear up rearends or trannies. I make pretty good power, race my car at least twice a month, and I drive the **** out of it everyday, so the misalligned pinnion becomes a serious issue. I have gone through 2 trannies and I'm on my 4th rearend this year.I'm not running a trilink yet. I'm buying myself one with my Xmas bonus though.
so options to correct this are adjustable upper or lower links.
redesigned 4link
trilink w/ panhard.
FYI there are serious geometry issues with our factory rear suspensions. Becuase the Upperlinks are skewed like they are they cause an infinate roll point that locks up the rearend and causes the snap oversteer we have all experianced. the only fix for this is to get rid of them. Also the watts link is too high and not centered on the diff causeing a high and offset roll center that makes the car react different to left and right turns. These problems are only increased as we lower the car making the geometry even worse. The only way to fix these issues is to throw away the stupid upperlinks and run something different. Panhard bar with a trilink or even a redesigned 4 link would fix it, so would a redesigned watts link and upperlinks.
Another thing. you can't run heimjointed upperlinks in the same posisition as the current upperlinks. This will only further increase the binding issue.
p.s.
here's a good mod to fix suspension issues, but it does nothing to correct the pinnion issues.
http://www.pbandjracing.com/rear_suspension.html
There are other things to consider as well. If you only daily drive your car and don't make a lot of power or don't beat the **** out of your car then you're not going to tear up rearends or trannies. I make pretty good power, race my car at least twice a month, and I drive the **** out of it everyday, so the misalligned pinnion becomes a serious issue. I have gone through 2 trannies and I'm on my 4th rearend this year.I'm not running a trilink yet. I'm buying myself one with my Xmas bonus though.
so options to correct this are adjustable upper or lower links.
redesigned 4link
trilink w/ panhard.
FYI there are serious geometry issues with our factory rear suspensions. Becuase the Upperlinks are skewed like they are they cause an infinate roll point that locks up the rearend and causes the snap oversteer we have all experianced. the only fix for this is to get rid of them. Also the watts link is too high and not centered on the diff causeing a high and offset roll center that makes the car react different to left and right turns. These problems are only increased as we lower the car making the geometry even worse. The only way to fix these issues is to throw away the stupid upperlinks and run something different. Panhard bar with a trilink or even a redesigned 4 link would fix it, so would a redesigned watts link and upperlinks.
Another thing. you can't run heimjointed upperlinks in the same posisition as the current upperlinks. This will only further increase the binding issue.
p.s.
here's a good mod to fix suspension issues, but it does nothing to correct the pinnion issues.
http://www.pbandjracing.com/rear_suspension.html
12-02-09, 02:22 AM
#33
What I ment by new upper links was, redesigned upperlinks. The upper links are unparallel and unequal length. A good 4 link setups have equal length and parallel upper arms. If you were to redeisgn the 4 link setup with some adjustable upper or lower links that would fix the problem, but if you're making the uppers adjustible you might as well redesign them to be at least parallel. And there's no point to going through all that trouble to redesign the 4 link when there's already a "bolt in" option.
There are other things to consider as well. If you only daily drive your car and don't make a lot of power or don't beat the **** out of your car then you're not going to tear up rearends or trannies. I make pretty good power, race my car at least twice a month, and I drive the **** out of it everyday, so the misalligned pinnion becomes a serious issue. I have gone through 2 trannies and I'm on my 4th rearend this year.I'm not running a trilink yet. I'm buying myself one with my Xmas bonus though.
so options to correct this are adjustable upper or lower links.
redesigned 4link
trilink w/ panhard.
FYI there are serious geometry issues with our factory rear suspensions. Becuase the Upperlinks are skewed like they are they cause an infinate roll point that locks up the rearend and causes the snap oversteer we have all experianced. the only fix for this is to get rid of them. Also the watts link is too high and not centered on the diff causeing a high and offset roll center that makes the car react different to left and right turns. These problems are only increased as we lower the car making the geometry even worse. The only way to fix these issues is to throw away the stupid upperlinks and run something different. Panhard bar with a trilink or even a redesigned 4 link would fix it, so would a redesigned watts link and upperlinks.
Another thing. you can't run heimjointed upperlinks in the same posisition as the current upperlinks. This will only further increase the binding issue.
p.s.
here's a good mod to fix suspension issues, but it does nothing to correct the pinnion issues.
http://www.pbandjracing.com/rear_suspension.html
There are other things to consider as well. If you only daily drive your car and don't make a lot of power or don't beat the **** out of your car then you're not going to tear up rearends or trannies. I make pretty good power, race my car at least twice a month, and I drive the **** out of it everyday, so the misalligned pinnion becomes a serious issue. I have gone through 2 trannies and I'm on my 4th rearend this year.I'm not running a trilink yet. I'm buying myself one with my Xmas bonus though.
so options to correct this are adjustable upper or lower links.
redesigned 4link
trilink w/ panhard.
FYI there are serious geometry issues with our factory rear suspensions. Becuase the Upperlinks are skewed like they are they cause an infinate roll point that locks up the rearend and causes the snap oversteer we have all experianced. the only fix for this is to get rid of them. Also the watts link is too high and not centered on the diff causeing a high and offset roll center that makes the car react different to left and right turns. These problems are only increased as we lower the car making the geometry even worse. The only way to fix these issues is to throw away the stupid upperlinks and run something different. Panhard bar with a trilink or even a redesigned 4 link would fix it, so would a redesigned watts link and upperlinks.
Another thing. you can't run heimjointed upperlinks in the same posisition as the current upperlinks. This will only further increase the binding issue.
p.s.
here's a good mod to fix suspension issues, but it does nothing to correct the pinnion issues.
http://www.pbandjracing.com/rear_suspension.html
. Thanks for all the great info. Looks like i'll keep the car raised a little more in the rear for now. Pbandj says they recommend the panhard bar for track use only. I drive the snot out of my car all the time too, pretty soon I should be close to 250-300whp. I guess the trilink and panhard are going on my list of parts. Hyper, do you have the pbandj upgrade done to your watts link for now?
12-02-09, 06:52 AM
#34
Did PB & J say why he recommended the Panhard for track use only? I have a Trilink / Panhard setup, and I drive it during the two most important days of the week (Saturday and Sunday). I made sure I had Teflon-lined Heim Joints so they don't clunk. So far, it's been fine for the street.
Also, there are a few different setups available. I chose the G-Force one:
1) The Panhard fits with the OEM fuel tank.
2) The Tri-link bolts to the tunnel, which seemed less intrusive to the interior than welding it.
3) Jim Susko provides a host of great information and technical support.
Also, there are a few different setups available. I chose the G-Force one:
1) The Panhard fits with the OEM fuel tank.
2) The Tri-link bolts to the tunnel, which seemed less intrusive to the interior than welding it.
3) Jim Susko provides a host of great information and technical support.
12-02-09, 03:28 PM
#35
Because heim joints are really frigging loud and they need to be lubed and cleaned. If you don't mind this then the panhard and 3rd link are totally streetable. Or you could be gangster and design a panhard or trilink with bushings instead of heim joints. The teflon heim joints do wear out rather quickly. I wouldn't expect them to last anymore than 20k before the teflon pops out of the joints. Ask the 4x4 guys they replace teflon lined heims once a year.
I run the stock setup for now because I'm poor. I did the PB&J mod on my turbo Fb and it made a difference. I think it's worth the $15 and 2 hours it takes. I will go full heim jointed panhard and trilink this winter.
I run the stock setup for now because I'm poor. I did the PB&J mod on my turbo Fb and it made a difference. I think it's worth the $15 and 2 hours it takes. I will go full heim jointed panhard and trilink this winter.
12-02-09, 11:41 PM
#36
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Grannys makes this watts linkage
http://grannys.tripod.com/TASAwatts.jpg which is for a Ford 8.8, but same principal would apply to atleast get ours back to stock level.
He also has a 3link setup also, that uses a lower Torque arm. http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/TASA9500.jpg
I have a welder. I have access to whatever materials I need. What would you do? Since this car is mainly for Auto-x (XP) and already has around 220 ft/lbs torque (will be more like 300 next year) I want to do it right.
That being said, does anyone have any links to threads/pictures of people who have fixed our 4 link correctly? I dont want to go out and spend $400+ just to get fed up and end up getting the GForce kit. lol...
I would love to drive a 3 link FB if anyone is from anywhere remotely near Blacksburg VA, let me know. I would come try a ride if anyone is willing.
http://grannys.tripod.com/TASAwatts.jpg which is for a Ford 8.8, but same principal would apply to atleast get ours back to stock level.
He also has a 3link setup also, that uses a lower Torque arm. http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/TASA9500.jpg
I have a welder. I have access to whatever materials I need. What would you do? Since this car is mainly for Auto-x (XP) and already has around 220 ft/lbs torque (will be more like 300 next year) I want to do it right.
That being said, does anyone have any links to threads/pictures of people who have fixed our 4 link correctly? I dont want to go out and spend $400+ just to get fed up and end up getting the GForce kit. lol...
I would love to drive a 3 link FB if anyone is from anywhere remotely near Blacksburg VA, let me know. I would come try a ride if anyone is willing.
12-03-09, 04:10 AM
#37
Did PB & J say why he recommended the Panhard for track use only? I have a Trilink / Panhard setup, and I drive it during the two most important days of the week (Saturday and Sunday). I made sure I had Teflon-lined Heim Joints so they don't clunk. So far, it's been fine for the street.
Also, there are a few different setups available. I chose the G-Force one:
1) The Panhard fits with the OEM fuel tank.
2) The Tri-link bolts to the tunnel, which seemed less intrusive to the interior than welding it.
3) Jim Susko provides a host of great information and technical support.
Also, there are a few different setups available. I chose the G-Force one:
1) The Panhard fits with the OEM fuel tank.
2) The Tri-link bolts to the tunnel, which seemed less intrusive to the interior than welding it.
3) Jim Susko provides a host of great information and technical support.
Because heim joints are really frigging loud and they need to be lubed and cleaned. If you don't mind this then the panhard and 3rd link are totally streetable. Or you could be gangster and design a panhard or trilink with bushings instead of heim joints. The teflon heim joints do wear out rather quickly. I wouldn't expect them to last anymore than 20k before the teflon pops out of the joints. Ask the 4x4 guys they replace teflon lined heims once a year.
I run the stock setup for now because I'm poor. I did the PB&J mod on my turbo Fb and it made a difference. I think it's worth the $15 and 2 hours it takes. I will go full heim jointed panhard and trilink this winter.
I run the stock setup for now because I'm poor. I did the PB&J mod on my turbo Fb and it made a difference. I think it's worth the $15 and 2 hours it takes. I will go full heim jointed panhard and trilink this winter.
. I was thinking of doing the pbandj mod, but i'll probably just wait till the trilink and panhard setup. Make sure to make a thread when you do this! Thanks again Hyper.
12-03-09, 06:51 AM
#38
Heim Joints
OK, the concerns about the noise and durability are things I had heard before.
Unless the heim joints are clunking or you're driving over bad road imperfections, they're not that much louder. If you're concerned about it, I suggest driving a car that's setup that way so you can judge for yourself. My wife (general household counsel) didn't notice much of a difference.
As for the maintenance and durability -- there's no lubing with the teflon-lined joints, and I'm not so sure cleaning is required either. In all reality, I don't drive the car offroad or in the salt -- or in the rain very often. If I get 20K miles out of them, that will be 4 or 5 years for me, which isn't bad. We'll see . . .
Here's the only pic I have (that's not me in the photo). If you look just forward of the fuel pump, you can see the Tri-Link bracket tucked up in the tunnel.
Unless the heim joints are clunking or you're driving over bad road imperfections, they're not that much louder. If you're concerned about it, I suggest driving a car that's setup that way so you can judge for yourself. My wife (general household counsel) didn't notice much of a difference.
As for the maintenance and durability -- there's no lubing with the teflon-lined joints, and I'm not so sure cleaning is required either. In all reality, I don't drive the car offroad or in the salt -- or in the rain very often. If I get 20K miles out of them, that will be 4 or 5 years for me, which isn't bad. We'll see . . .
Here's the only pic I have (that's not me in the photo). If you look just forward of the fuel pump, you can see the Tri-Link bracket tucked up in the tunnel.
12-03-09, 03:01 PM
#39
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Does everyone just go 3 link because of the available kits, or more because its IT Legal? I just feel like I see TONS of slammed FB's, and its very hard to believe that every person has swapped to a trilink. What are the other methods of fixing a lowered cars geometry properly? (i.e. no drilling bushings or other BS)
12-03-09, 06:00 PM
#40
OK, the concerns about the noise and durability are things I had heard before.
Unless the heim joints are clunking or you're driving over bad road imperfections, they're not that much louder. If you're concerned about it, I suggest driving a car that's setup that way so you can judge for yourself. My wife (general household counsel) didn't notice much of a difference.
As for the maintenance and durability -- there's no lubing with the teflon-lined joints, and I'm not so sure cleaning is required either. In all reality, I don't drive the car offroad or in the salt -- or in the rain very often. If I get 20K miles out of them, that will be 4 or 5 years for me, which isn't bad. We'll see . . .
Here's the only pic I have (that's not me in the photo). If you look just forward of the fuel pump, you can see the Tri-Link bracket tucked up in the tunnel.
Unless the heim joints are clunking or you're driving over bad road imperfections, they're not that much louder. If you're concerned about it, I suggest driving a car that's setup that way so you can judge for yourself. My wife (general household counsel) didn't notice much of a difference.
As for the maintenance and durability -- there's no lubing with the teflon-lined joints, and I'm not so sure cleaning is required either. In all reality, I don't drive the car offroad or in the salt -- or in the rain very often. If I get 20K miles out of them, that will be 4 or 5 years for me, which isn't bad. We'll see . . .
Here's the only pic I have (that's not me in the photo). If you look just forward of the fuel pump, you can see the Tri-Link bracket tucked up in the tunnel.
lol. That would be great if I never had to clean and lube the heim joints before they need replacing, shouldn't be a problem if I do though.Does everyone just go 3 link because of the available kits, or more because its IT Legal? I just feel like I see TONS of slammed FB's, and its very hard to believe that every person has swapped to a trilink. What are the other methods of fixing a lowered cars geometry properly? (i.e. no drilling bushings or other BS)
12-03-09, 06:43 PM
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I posted a new thread to discuss this and hopefully make a sticky to help anyone else out!
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...64#post9657364
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...64#post9657364
12-03-09, 09:30 PM
#42
I posted a new thread to discuss this and hopefully make a sticky to help anyone else out!
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...64#post9657364
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...64#post9657364
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