BrewerBob

Here's the story...

Just helped a neighbor retrieve a 1980 automatic from Charleston. He bought the car from a Coast Guard guy I know. The car is for his daughter and it's been sitting for more than a year.

All of the plugs were fouled with crud; oil, dirt, sludge etc. I cleaned the existing plugs and put them back in. The car will turn over but will not start or even try to start.

The gas is getting to the carb; both fuel line have gas in them and goes everywhere when the fuel pump is turned on. The spark plugs are wet when removed. They had more gunk on them so I took them all out again. I ran a good bit of gas straight down the carb and turned it over while the plugs were out. There wasn't much that came out.

The gas will spray out in a nice mist from each of the plugs. All four of the plugs have spark. And the air filter is completely removed.

From my understanding of fire, you need three elements. Fuel, spark, and air. I have all three but I have no running car. What gives?

I should also mention that the car will not even try to start even with ether (starting fluid). Even without working gas lines it should start until it completely burns the starting fluid but I don't even get that.

Hades12

Drain the gas tank and repace the old gas. I would normaly say to pull start it, but being a automatic kills that. Also could be flooded now. a little ATF down the carb should also get it started.

RX744CSP

iTrader: (4)

Ditto on the ATF. Hey, did you ever come up with wheels for your car, or are you still relying on that 'wife and kids come first' line?

BrewerBob

Who said the wife and kids come first? I'll trade either for a good set of rims!!

I thought about draining the old gas too. But the damn thing should have done something with the ether, bad gas or not.

And what does the ATF do? I don't believe in wive's tales. Or would that be shade tree mechanic's tales???

RX744CSP

iTrader: (4)

Don't think you will find any trades. Anyway, my understanding is that a motor that sits a loooong time has issues with apex and side seals allowing compression loss, and the ATF acts as a temporary 'stop leak' so the engine will start. That's what we do with the flooded FI cars we see here at the dealership. Dump some ATF in the carb, spin it over with the plugs out, stick the plugs back in, make sure you have a fresh battery, hold the throttle to the floor (DO NOT PUMP THE THROTTLE!) and spin it over till it lights. Makes a big stinky white cloud that your neighbors will love.

BrewerBob

My neighbors (expect teh one with the 7) are all *******s. Someone keeps calling the cops about leaves in the yard, car in the driveway etc.

How many quarts of ATF would it take to smoke out the whole damn block?!?!?

Does an engine (piston or rotor) need compression to run? Shouldn't it at least fire regardless?

Rutnick

intake, COMPRESSION, COMBUSTION and exhaust.

yes, air, fuel and spark are needed for fire but compression is needed for gasoline engines.....

Hades12

The old gas will get so bad that it just will not start. The good thing is we have electric fuel pumps so just take off the hose at the carb and put it in a jug and let the pump do the work. I have not had good luck with Starting flud and 7's just seems to not work. But ATF will do the trick, most times.

85rotarypower

Any basic driveway mechanic knows that you NEED compression to have a car run. Thats all there is too it. No compression, no running engine.

Rutnick

just ask anyone who has burned a valve out! Like me driving my XRTI with the boost up and cruising at 120 about 10 years ago. Luckily.....I just had to get a valve job done.....

tmking66

When you poured gas directly into the compustion chambers you killed your compression. Remove plugs and remove as much of the gas as possible by turning over the engine. You can probably do this by turning the engine over by hand a couple of times (easier on it than cranking with the starter). Next inject some ATF or MMO into the combustion chambers through the spark plug holes. Rotate the engine by hand while you do this so you get some fluid (ATF or MMO) on each rotor face. This will help build your compression. Re-install your plugs (after you have cleaned them well of course). Disconnect the fuel pump and with out the plugs connected crank the engine a couple of times with the starter to distribute the fluid evenly throughout the engine. Connect fuel pump and plugs and it should fire up. It will smoke like crazy for a few min. but this will go away as the fluid burns out of the engine. After you get it running replace your plugs (they will be fouled) and CHANGE YOUR OIL (will be contaminated with gas).

Good Luck!

RX744CSP

iTrader: (4)

Something else I just thought of: if the car has been sitting for a long time (sounds like it from your description) the fuel in the carburetor float bowl will evaporate and leave a residue that will keep the needle valve from closing. Take the lid off the air cleaner and turn the ignition on, this will get the fuel pump running. Now look into the carburetor; if you see fuel dribbling the float is stuck, and the engine will never 'un-flood' until that stops. Use the plastic handle of a screwdriver to rap politely on the top of the carb, the dribbling should stop. Then continue on with the restarting process. If it doesn't stop, you will have no choice but to rebuild the carb to stop the flooding.

And yes an engine's gotta have compression to run, home boy.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Geez, forget about the ATF and MMO. ATF doesn't burn very well and MMO is fairly thin. Just pour a little oil down the carb. Oh yeah, get some NEW spark plugs. The oil trick has worked for me several times, but this one time recently, my plugs were misfiring. I swapped plugs and it fired right up.

BrewerBob

I know it is needed in order to drive but is it needed to fire? The car would run like crap with a rotor or piston missing but it would still run. This engine doesn't even want to fire.

I hadn't thought about the exhaust but again it should at least try to fire until the back pressure gets too high.

I'll check the floats and try the tapping. I really don't want to take the carb off. That one bolt is a bitch and there are just too much damn stuff attached to the carb.

Hades12

Might check the tail pipe. If it is clogged it may not want to fire.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Too bad it's an auto. If it wasn't you could try to push or pull start it.

Yark79

are you sure the plugs you cleaned are getting any spark? make sure you are getting a spark. then, i would check distributor cap and rotors and plug wires.

BrewerBob

Yeap, well at least three of the plugs are sparking. I didn't check the 4th one. I figured it would belch and burp (at least fire) on 3. I checked the rest as well. I couldn't make much sense out of the "points". But since the individual plugs are sparking something is making and breaking contact. The plugs are sparking yellow but I don't know if that is bad wires, old coils, old plugs or if it is supposed to be that way.

Aren't plugs ideally sparking blue?

RX744CSP

iTrader: (4)

I work at a Mazda dealer as a service advisor. Most all of the 'flooded' ones we get just spin and spin, sounds like they are dead- like no compression. Sometimes they'll blow a little fart out of the exhaust, but that's about it. Rotaries don't generally sound like they have a lot of compression in the first place. Yellow spark on a point system car indicates low voltage on the battery side, make sure the battery's charged good and you have a jumper car or jump box. With an automatic car, you're gonna need all the battery you can get.

If it's got points, I think you may actually have a '79. IIRC, all '80's came with electronic ignition.

BrewerBob

Well, it doesn't really look like normal points. Whatever is under the rotor.

Anyway, the AFT made a difference but not enough. It sounds like it is trying to fire now. It almosts starts. Tomorrow the carb comes apart.

The battery is an old one that's been laying around. And the spark was checked while using a battery charger which probably isn't doing the charger any favors either.

comeonstart

This was my exact problem, it wouldnt ever pop spraying ether down the carb, but I used alittle ATF and new plugs and she came right to life, keep her goign for a while and sheel smoke like a biotch but it should run

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

A little oil and old plugs sorta worked, but tested good used plugs worked the best for me. I'm gonna get some new ones eventually. You should consider new plugs too. Get whatever is best for the '80. Didn't they start doing BR8EQ-14 plugs in '80? Or was it '81?

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

listen to Jeff20B ~

put some oil down the throttle bores. better yet, put some gear oil down them. turn the engine (by hand) through a few revolutions, then change the plugs and try to crank it. it should start and smoke, but the important thing is, it should start ...

bstrange99

I've had a lot of bad luck with jumping, seems like these things need a lot of juice to start, so I'd just switch out the battery with a known good one from another car. Also, I've had better luck starting them with wd40, than with ether. Just a small spray in the carb as you're cranking. Spark plugs are also very important.
Good luck

BrewerBob

The ATF and gear oil seem to help but it hasn't quit started. Soooo close , yet so far.

Something I failed to mention... the air pump doesn't have a belt on it. My current driving 7 ran like **** when the belt broke but it still would start. Still working on old plugs but new ones should be here tomorrow. I'll have to get homey to get one of those too.

The carb was fairly clean for sitting so long. I replaced the top most gasket and checked all the jets and ports. It has fresh gas now as well.

It seems to waant to start right after putting in the gear oil. What does that say about the engine? Yes, I know it's for the seals but what happens next. Assuming I get it started, will it stay running? Will it start again? Do the seals HAVE to be replaced?

I'd rather not keep messing with it if it has to be torn down and have the seals replaced. I'm also guessing the neighbor isn't going to want to do that.

How much are new seals? And all the gaskets or whatever else will need to be replaced? I'm not sure that's a job I even want to try. How big of a pain in the *** is it?