1st Generation Specific (1979-1985) 1979-1985 Discussion including performance modifications and technical support sections

Manual conversion began!!!! 79 SA

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Old 02-06-16, 10:21 AM
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Manual conversion began!!!! 79 SA

Hello all, last year, I bought a 79 SA with 29000 miles. Body was as nice as you could possibly hope for, and interior is nice, with the exception of that the red faded. I will re-dye in the future. I really like the car, and it brings me back to when I was young, and dreamed of being able to buy what I thought was the coolest car ever ( at that point). Yes, I too am an old guy with a 12a!!
Anyway, after tuning it up, I realized I wanted more power, and I realized that the automatic trans was not a good fit for me or the car. So I went off and bought a SA trans, and hunted up most of the conversion pieces. The pedals are in, and the auto trans is out.
I bought a racing beat lightweight steel flywheel ( about 17 pounds) and I bought a new clutch assembly.
Being it was an auto, the counterweight is already in place. I am relying on the quality of racing beat, that the new flywheel has no imbalance to it. I think the reduced weight will let it rev, without being too difficult to modulate the clutch.
I am still hunting up a shifter bezel, which seem hard to find. I usually like to hold onto original parts, but I may have to cut the auto bezel to make that work instead. I hate to do it, as it is in such nice shape. I have an ad in the wanted section, so if anyone has a lead on one....
Being the exhaust was coming out for trans removal, I also bought a new racing beat complete system. It reuses the over the axle pipe, but that is all. My original exhaust was in real nice shape, but I do want more power, so I am changing it out. I had a mid range "bog" which was very apparent with the auto trans. I decided to change from points to electronic, which helped a little, so after trans and exhaust is in, I will go back to the carb and see where that leads me.
I am sure I will be able to remove the stumble.

I realize this conversion has been done many times. I will post future pix as my time allows. If anyone has any helpful advice, please be my guest and comment. I am aware there is a great knowledge base here.

I didn't take the alteration of such a clean original car lightly, but my thought was, if I can't fully enjoy it, what is the point of owning it. When I do a conversion ( on any car I have ever owned, and I have done many many auto/manual conversions) I always make sure that my changes could be reversed without any permanent alterations.

Thank you in advance for any help and advice!!!!

Rich
Old 02-06-16, 11:28 AM
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The RB light steel flywheel is 13 pounds by itself. The 17 number comes from the 4 pound rear counterweight.

I feel these cars should have come from the factory with a light steel flywheel. It just works with the weight of the chassis, the power of the engine (and how fun it is to rev), and it works with the rear diff gearing of around 3.9 or so. You will like the flywheel.

As for the clutch "modulating", that depends on which pressure plate you get. A stiff pressure plate that is stronger than what you need, is never a good idea. So get a stock duty replacement Exedy in 225mm because that is the size of the flywheel's friction surface. I mention 225mm as the size to get, not the '79 size of 215mm because you would only have needed 215mm if you went with the gross heavy 30 pound stock flywheel from those car. Not recommended. And then you have less clutch choices in 215mm.

You sound like you're on the hunt for more power. Everyone is. Going light steel flywheel is a step in the right direction and far better than aluminum. But I must say swapping to a lighter flywheel does free up available HP but never actually adds HP. I'm sure you already know this, but I mention it anyway.

As for your hunt for more HP, I'll give you a short list of what works.

If taking the engine apart for porting, Don't go bigger than 74 spec. This is a lot of years of rotary experience talking. Street ports aren't as awesome as you were led to believe. 74 spec works better for the street hands down. Street ports lose your low end torque, which believe me you want to keep, and replace it with high end which you don't get into every time you drive. And then when you do get into it, 74 spec vs street port isn't going to make a whole lot of difference unless EVERYTHING is set up for it. And then you've spent a year tweaking things and are never satisfied. Plus you will require a huge carb, and the only choice we have for huge is a Holley. And those are terrible. You can't autocross or use the car as intended for things like cornering due to fuel slosh. And then there are webers which aren't all that great on such a wide rev range engine (they can be tuned well for most of the range, but not all due to only having two barrels, and you'll miss your secondaries deeply). Dellortos aren't made anymore. Mikunis are hard to find. OER also hard to find. Etc. Stay away from 2bbl carbs.

Your only choice, in my opinion, is a Nikki. One that is properly hogged out and modified will run better and make more power than anything else out there. You already have a good 79 intake manifold. All you need is the carb. You can learn to do it yourself or have someone else mod it for you. I do them as a hobby for local friends and stuff. Also a few over the internet.

I've been told one of the carbs I modified is as good as modern EFI and much more powerful than a Sterling carb he had for a while. It's also tuned better right out of the box and is more fuel efficient. His car is NA but I tuned it for my blow through turbo setup. I didn't change the tune at all, and it still worked perfectly on his NA setup. Just a little food for thought.

As for your stumble, it's probably an accel pump that is old and stiff. When you go to rebuild the carb, the only parts you can use from the rebuild kit are as follows:
•top gasket which needs some of the holes trimmed as they hardly ever line up
•site glass window rubber o-rings and gaskets (paper needs trimming)
•baseplate gasket is too thin and leaks vacuum and fuel. Use as a template on thicker paper.
•accel pump diaphragm

That is all you can use. The rest is semi-useless. I say that because some of the aluminum crush washers are useful if you have to dig deeper into the carb such as on the fuel rail to get to the strainers which I always remove to free up fuel flow for boost. I also remove the stock seats to take out the strainers. Then I reinstall them. DO NOT use the needles and seats in the rebuild kits EVER!!!!!!!!!! They are machined improperly and will flood every time. You've been warned. Also do not adjust your floats ever. They are factory set and perfect. Do not use any of the other phenolic spacer gaskets in the kit. They are useless. The original gaskets are permanently bonded to the phenolic spacer and are reusable.

It is ok to remove the bulky choke junk from your carb, but keep the choke flap unless you want to re-calibrate your idle circuit to function without it while cold. I can instruct you on what to do if interested. Some say the choke flap is restrictive, and it is a little, but it depends on what you want to do with your carb. Or leave all the bulky choke junk alone. Again it depends on what you want out of your carb.

To get the most NA power with still good quiet street driveable results, you will need RB's long primary exhaust system. They call it their "streetport" system. It is like 1000 these days though. However it lasts forever and sounds good doing it. No other system has the same enhanced low end torque with high end flow as a long primary. It has to do with the way a rotary runs, speed of sound, wavelengths, pipe diameter, 2 into 1 collector distance from the engine etc. Science stuff. Just know it is the best pre-made system you can get for a 1st gen. Anything else will either not be right for the street, or too loud, or will sacrifice some low end for possibly more high end, or just not flow right leading to an air-slug problem at low RPM or too restrictive at high RPM. Exhaust is a whole subject in itself. I've tried RB's long and short systems, I've fabbed my own long ans short systems, I've tried stock as well. Only RB's long primary does it right, with my fabbed long primary a close second (but mine was too loud!).

As for ignition, I'm glad you swapped in electronic. Rotaries like a long duration spark. With electronic, it will only ever get up to a certain voltage due to the kettering design, and once that is reached, the rest of the energy is dissipated as spark duration. But you can still do better. Look into DLIDFIS. It is a direct fire ignition upgrade for 1st gens that uses dual leading ignitors so each coil and each leading spark plug gets its own ignitor. This is potentially more powerful than the stock FC ignition system where their single leading coil's output has to be shared across two leading plugs, which only have one leading ignitor for it all. Not recommended. With DLIDFIS, you can use NGK BR8EQ-14 plugs in all four holes if you want to. It's still 1st gen ignition and those are the correct plugs for it. Be sure to move the trailing wires over to the leading part of the cap (look inside and study the carbon button with only one gap to jump on the leading side vs two gaps on the trailing side).

What else? You can eventually upgrade your alt to an internally regulated one for more reliability, simpler wiring, and more amps. However speaking of simpler wiring, at the moment your car is set up for external so it's up to you.

Wow, I'm full of all kinds of information today. But it's all based on real experience.
Old 02-07-16, 08:38 AM
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Hello Jeff, thank you for your excellent information. I have learned a lot by reading your posts in the past. I have plans for the ignition upgrade. I actually have a few old GM modules in my old tool box. I used to hang on to them for test purposes as known good units.
I have already bought a Racing Beat exhaust system, and foolishly picked the one called "stock ported". It was around 891 dollars. I doubt that Racing Beat will accept it in return due to the fact that I bought it last June ( I became distracted with a work related software project) and so the car sat covered.
Here is my question, is the exhaust you mentioned better to the degree that I should order that system, and take a loss selling mine ( my guess is I lose some time and near 300 dollars)? IF you feel strongly about it, I may take that route. Now would be the time while I still have the system in the box.

I very well may take you up on the rebuild/rework of my carb. Any price you charge will be worth the experience you have, and I don't. I live in NJ, where it is very cold for 4 months a year and would prefer to keep my choke, especially since I can hand activate it. People who see that are amazed that even in the late 70s there were manual chokes!!

I was not going to open the motor at this point, being it seems to be healthy (29000 miles and auto trans and one babying owner) But I have read about the 74 spec ports and have already decided if I were ever to port, that's what spec I would use. Thank you for confirming that.

Thank you for so freely sharing you knowledge. I am sure it took a lot of hard work and many head scratching sessions to obtain it. Passing that along is just...the nice thing to do. I do, and I am sure many other readers appreciate your help!!!

Can I PM you to "talk about" sending you my Nikki?

Thank you

Rich
Old 02-07-16, 10:44 AM
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If your "short collected" RB system (as I like to call it) is still new in the box, and you;re willing to also sell your stock connecting pipe along with it, as the RB system relies on it and they don't sell them anymore as far as I know(?), and all good condition stock connecting pipes are all over 30 years old at this point, and you are willing to take a loss on it as you said, and you have no plans on a turbo right now (believe me they are not for everyone and they do require a LOT of dedication and attention to do right), then yes I'd say sell the short collected and buy the long primary. You will love it as much as a light steel flywheel.

I like the long primary so much I've kept mine even though I have a turbo currently installed. I do a lot of engine and carb testing so I need to keep access to the best NA system money can buy. I'm even thinking about doing another hybrid exhaust where I use a 3" downpipe from the turbo, then Y it apart to flow into the RB dual pipe center section. I did one of those a few months ago for someone and it worked pretty well, but the DP he wanted was only 2.5". The rotating assembly was also a bit heavier than what I'm using; the result was that it revs slower and will make a bit less power with slower spool (due to the 2.5" DP). However the engine was a fresh rebuild which I'm sure has something to do with it. I couldn't get into any real power with it due to needing to be broken in and keeping the revs low, staying in vacuum (no boost). However it ran extremely well and seemed like it would make an excellent daily. Of course it had 74 spec ports and a light steel flywheel.

Yeah, that sounds fine. I can keep the choke flap and just simplify the hardware so pulling the choke **** will still close it and raise the idle like it's supposed to.

I'd leave your engine alone, for now, with such few miles. By thew way, to get 74 spec ports, if you have access to any T2 or FD end plate, you can make a paper template copy. They came stock with the correct port timing that matches true original 74 spec. This is a slotuin if you don't have access to an original vintage 74-75 iron with the 3B casting. Only difference is on all 86+ ports, Mazda revamped the bottom of the port shape. You need to ignore this change because there is very little flow down there and you risk doing more harm than good if you try to port to it on your R5 irons (you might hit the water jacket!). I've personally never done it and don't recommend it.

Yep, took lots of years to get where I am. I know what works and what doesn't at this point.
Old 02-13-16, 08:59 AM
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Hello all, just an update. I have finished most of the auto/manual conversion. I will say that beside scrounging for a few longer bolts for the bellhousing and making the bracket and pipe for the master to the slave hose, this is an easy bolt on affair. I could easily convert it back to auto.

I do notice that it seems to run smoother with the lighter flywheel which is remarkable due to the fact that rotary are already smooth. My guess is the fluid in the torque converter sloshes a bit and creates a small imbalance under certain conditions.

In the future, I need to get an FB trans and make some measurements. I hunted up a 79 SA 5 speed which is what I installed. I feel that the shifter can move back 4 inches or so without having to cut the tunnel. I looked at pix and it seems the major difference between SA/FB is the location of the shift assembly. I wish I had one handy just to test fit it.
To get everything going, I reinstalled the stock exhaust. Due to the low mileage and garaged kept condition, it came apart and went together easily. I may sell the RB 16410 exhaust and buy the long tube header version. That decision is still pending.
I think that I will have to lay out 500 or more ( after selling my current RB exhaust) to get the long tube. My ignorance cost me again!!
The only wiring mods were for the start circuit ( removing the neutral safety switch) and the reverse lights. Basically adding 3 wires in total. Easy Peasy.

I still need the SA type shifter boot bezel as I now have a gaping hole where the auto shifter bezel once was. I can not modify the auto one to work, as it is rear biased. The manual version is forward biased. Eventually I will find the right one. I have an ad in the classified looking for that and other small items.

Next, I am getting with Jeff20B to get my Nikki sorted out. I noticed an " off idle" stumble and then again above 3200 rpm. The off idle clears up at about 1900 rpm. Maybe the accelerator circuit is the blame. I doubt it is timing related but perhaps.
I now need to find a nice place to store my old trans. I have parts galore from cars that I no longer have, that I carefully packed away parts. Dodge,Porsche. Toyota,Plymouth,Ferrari, Mazda. Parts a plenty for cars I don't have. I have 3 sets of wheels for a Porsche 993, but no car.
I need to make a list, take some pix and sell them.
I daily drive a 06 Miata. Great Car!!! If I could get similar power from my rotary, I will be really happy. I don't think I can get there, but I bet within the last 15% of the Miata's power, and less with the torque.

Anyway, I will soon post pix of the conversion. This was certainly the easiest conversion I ever did. Actually it was easier than making my MR2 5 speed into a 6 speed.
A good wrench with the knowledge and a lift can do the total job in about 6 or 7 hours.

I find more info here than anywhere else combined!!

Thanks for the support. I will post updates soon

Rich
Old 02-13-16, 12:53 PM
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Yes, autos will vibrate. I've driven two auto rotaries and they both vibrated. Then the same engines with flywheels didn't vibrate anymore. Go figure. 76 Cosmo and 84 FB.

The shift housing on FB trannies is like 100mm rearward or about 4 inches if memory serves.

Get the long primary. You'll love it. I'm going to swap back to mine to do some NA testing at some point. Then maybe configure a dp to mate to the dual pipe center section for easier NA to turbo swaps for testing purposes. That idea is still pending.

Yes, my Cosmo needed some sort of reverse light wiring mod in the center console area. I think I jumped two wires together. Don't recall exactly.

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