LokiRx7.1

iTrader: (1)

Do any of you guys notice all the retro muscle cars coming back? Of course you do, like the new concept Camaro, the return of the Challenger with the 6.1 Hemi, of course the restyled Mustang, And I'm sure the Trans Am will be back. At least since the GTO's failure I think they'll bring it back.

I dont know I think all this muscle mumbo jumbo is a stab in the dark because all of the american auto companies are failing, I mean c'mon Toyota is the #2 largest auto manufacturer in the world. I dont think the muscle car bet is gonna pay off, gas prices are rising, the baby boomers are getting old and probably starting not to care about cars as much as they used to. and if they do you know there old *** has a restored muscle car. With kids these days into Imports and alot of ricers I know actually hate muscle cars, you know the arguement, to heavy my accord would beat it auto-x, and then of course they tell you that the skyline they'll own one day would beat it (used to have an IROC-Z Camaro ) I think this muscle car gamble is stupid. As stated before gas prices are rising, GM and Chrysler and Ford are building gas drinking behemoths, and toyota and honda meanwhile are further developing hybrids and such..... hell Toyota had a 400HP hybrid at an auto show awhile back BMW made a hydrogen car hit like 240 mph street legally.

And Infinity is importing the GTR next year, just a rebagded Skyline. There are some cool cars coming from Japan now. America is building on muscle cars! the exact thing that almost killed every american manufacturer during the last fuel crisis. AMC is gone because of it, along with Chrysler going bankrupt. Look SUV's are beginning to thin out, around here I'm seeing new hondas and new toyotas everywhere.

Well Im just bored and nothing better to do, and Ive been thinking this for awhile, dont get me wrong I like muscle cars, some of these new ones are pretty cool, but it doesnt make good business sense to do this.

aussiesmg

iTrader: (1)

IMO, I actually see the gas prices are rising in response to the new power available in these cars, sorta like it happened in the late 60's early 70's. Conspiracy theory time....I believe the Government is forcing prices up to reduce the number of people buying these powerful cars and to keep them out of the hands of the inexperienced, next the Insurance rates will skyrocket on powerful cars again.

Of course the US company's are hurting and the last time they made real money on cars was the muscle car era. They have been hanging on by inflated truck/SUV sales for too long and now they've been caught with their pants down.

jfachner72

I have to agree to disagree.......

The reason is called "retro" the american car companys are re-creating the cars thet their target buyer grew up with in hopes to spark some excitement. The 45 year old man grew up in love with the late 60's mustang so ford recreates some of that in the 2005 mustang (called styling cues) the same goes for chrysler and general motors. The Jap companies dont have the luxury of doing a "retro" car because they made crap in the 60's...

Look at the Lexus concept car its an open air roadster based on a 1940's ford..... Is that because the 1940's roadster is a better car? No its because we as americans relate to cars that have achieved "ICON" status.

Mustang
Camaro
G.T.O.
Charger
Trans-Am
Firebird

ETC ETC ETC

What would Nissan's retro concept be???? I can read the headline now.

Nissan Reintroduces the 2007 "Super Bee"
Toyota Reintroduces the 2007 "Starlet"
Honda Reintroduces the 2007 "CVCC"

None of which would get any major fanfare.

Thats just my .02c as someone who has been working for one of the BIG 3 for 13 years...

Jay
1984 FB

matgls23

Late model corvettes and F-Bodies get like 30 mpg highway, I'm not sure of the exact number, but it is way better than most trucks. Imagine if you actually drove a truck, and decided you had to get a car that was better on gas. So you walk into the dealership and notice that you could drive a (in 2008) camaro with 400 hp and more than double your gas mileage, when you were thinking you were going to have to get a golf cart to save money on gas.

I'd rather drive an american car with a V-8 than a toyota camry.

Matt

FirebirdSlayer666

iTrader: (3)

It's all about business. They're doing this becuase they know they can get sales out of it. IMO the Camaro concept looks like **** though. The others though have been great. These are great ideas because they're taking the cars that looked gorgeous from the 60's and early 70's and making them modern:Good on gas and a hell of a lot more safe. Plus the automakers are still focusing on alternitative fuels and hybrids. More and more are coming out so they're not abandoning them.

Rxcalibur

Reintroduce.... "Super Bee" ? When did Nissan ever have a "Super Bee". Last time I checked the Super Bee was a model from Dodge made in the late 60s/early 70s as the top model for the Coronet line. There where even some Super Bee models that looked like the Plymouth Super Bird and Dodge Daytona (very, very rare).

LokiRx7.1

iTrader: (1)

I'm not bashing muscle cars although a retro 240Z would probably be in my garage, you have to understand they could make retro cars, hell look at the cosmo it was redone retro and planned to only sell in japan. what you dont get is that if the majority of car buyers see 30 mpg and then 70 mpg and they do a lot of driving they might skip on that extra power. you wouldnt because your a car enthusiast. the 45 year old man probably hates the retro styling and loves the original, hell he probably has the original in his garage. and the new vette doesnt get twice the mileage, the 400hp variant gets 16city 26 highway, trust me I looked into one, and those ratings are always a little high, dont beleive me go to the rx8 forums. the GTO was a huge disaster, all they did was rebadge the Holden Monaro. Americans arent so stupid anymore, A GTR when released will be on par with a vette and get better mileage and I'm sure in true japanese form it will be reliable. sorry but after how many years I've been in this I can see through the curtain GM Ford and Chrysler are pulling over everyones eyes. They want you to buy an image, a tainted image as far as I'm concerned. I bet in the next 6 months GM is surpassed by Toyota.
So if you are so sure of what your saying then why are the GM bigwigs freaking out about bankruptcy? Chryslers been there once already, and if the japanese continue this trend in the next ten fifteen years our rx-7's will be worth more than muscle cars, the big 3 are getting big competition from little japan, hell ford already sold its shares in mazda as well as GM sold its shares of Isuzu. they cant afford it anymore and its sad.....

LokiRx7.1

iTrader: (1)

And **** you I would buy a retro CVCC those were badass little cars

jfachner72

Sorry my mistake.....

It was the 1975 Honey Bee.
Based on the Datsun B210 chassis

sorry
jay 1984 FB

jfachner72

Ford still holds 33 1/4 holdings in Mazda

GM sold Isuzu cause its CRAP.

Your a bit testy i wasnt trying to start a fight just explain why we in americs get the cars that we get......

Yes ford and GM and Daimler are all in a bit of trouble but unlike GM, Ford has had 20 years of profits and they can sit back on their haunches for a few years and regroup....

I dont want to argue with you.....

Jay
1984 FB

And yes i would buy a retro 240Z

Anthrax Mike

This is super true. With the advent of tech like displacement-on-demand, direct-injection, variable cam/lift, lighter materials, even big v-8's can do alright in the gasoline department. Driving style plays a huge role. I sometimes get my toyota 1.6L to get 20 mpg with the way I drive. And think somebody with a heavy foot will usually op for tire burner to drive, just compounds the situation.

The only thing I'm worried about is the life span of the rotary. Some of this new tech doesn't translate all that well to a rotary. I know they built a hydrogen and even a hybrid RX-8. So I'm slightly optimistic that its not going to die off. But if it isn't cheap to produce an eco-friendly rotary, no company is willing to lose money over a romantic notion.

Speaking of new stuff, has anyone read about (HCCI) Homogenous Charge Compression Ignition. Its basically a diesel engine, without the diesel fuel. It supposedly runs cleaner than a diesel, but more effiencent than a spark ignition engine. Its kinda of the last horray of the IC gas engine.

LokiRx7.1

iTrader: (1)

Sorry if I sound a little heated, if I did sound that way it was not intended. And last I heard ford sold their holdings in Mazda. And GM made alot of money through Isuzu, they held controlling intrests and sold them under many different banners. but the fact is they are going under unfortunately, to turn business around I would do what the japanese are doing, not do the oppisite and aid the japanese..... it just seems stupid like " duh were going bankrupt because we sell gas drinking suv's, okay lets just make gas drinking cars derrr" Toyota is kicking their ***, and toyota doesnt have anything retro, nothing extremly powerful or fast, just good reliable gas sipping cars. the big 3 are trying to hard and their doing the wrong things. I swear to god when they unveiled the challenger gas went up ten cents! (J/K) but can you at least see what I'm trying to say? I like the mustang and the challenger, might think about owning one if I ever have the change laying around. just good idea bad timing.

LokiRx7.1

iTrader: (1)

And a N/A rotary will last forever, Mazda uses the rotary as a selling point for all their cars. Mazda is synonamous with the rotary. it will never die, they may make a hydrogen rotary, it wont be any different, other than the fuel sytem, than a normal rotary. trust me ive seen hydrogen powered cars before, they look like a normal engine. and Mazda will invest assloads of money before they let the rotary die.
Well a hydrogen engine is IC, but yeah gasoline engines soon will be phased out. but thankfully I have my bit of automotive history in the garage.

And this HCCI, isnt that the motor with a turbo that compresses the intake charge, and then forces the fuel in at ultra high compression levels? if so Ive heard of it.

FirebirdSlayer666

iTrader: (3)

This HCCI kinda sounds like Bio-Diesel to me. I'd rock a hydrogen rotary. Wouldn't hurt my feelings any. Plus you have to think of what kind of pressure that all these automakers are under from the oil tycoons. Back in the 20's there was a guy that invented a carburetor that ran 27 miles on a pint of gasoline. When you translate that it's 200 miles to the gallon!! Unfortunately he didn't have enough money to mass produce it and the oil tycoons ran him out of business. They don't care about anything but more and more money

Anthrax Mike

The homogenous in HCCI has to do with the air/fuel charge. It is a premixed charge that is supposed to be uniform, thus homogenous, in nature. It's brought into the chamber where compression ignites it. This process allows a very lean mixture, the odd thing is that it supposedly produces very low EGT, even though its lean. The low EGT make NOx formation non-existant and of course gain kick *** gas mileage. Apparently everyone is researching and dumping money into it. Honda says the think a HCCI Accord could make 50 mpg, and hybrid that to another 70 mpg.

The problems with it are, keeping the temperatures high enough to support combustion. If it misfires for instance, there might not be enough heat to fire that cylinder the next time around. Also There is no 'timing' in the conventional sense. SI uses a spark, diesel times ignition by controlling when fuel is injected, bit HCCI happens when ever the charge detonates. Its kinda a controlled form of engine ping. I guess their having trouble getting the right combination of air/fuel ratios for all the various engine speeds. So it has its drawbacks. Another also being less power then a similar ICE.

Bio-diesel is different. HCCI still functions on 94-ish pump gas, and its mixed before being brought into the combustion chamber, not injected as stated earlier. And from my understanding no tubro is involved, though the compression ratios are crazy high.

And long live the rotary.

aussiesmg

iTrader: (1)

Trucks are the ONLY profits the big three have made for about 20 years...

Retro styling is OK but where does the next model go?

Mustang looks good but the live axle lets it down.

Hydrogen is ineffective at this stage because it costs a lot more per gallon to produce it.

FirebirdSlayer666

iTrader: (3)

It's actually cheaper to produce hydrogen but there isn't many if any hydrogen producing facillities, let alone hydrogen fueling stations. That's where the money would need to be spent

aussiesmg

iTrader: (1)

Hydrogen produces less (I think it BTU measurements) actual power per gallon, its not effectively cheaper when you consider how many miles you get from the actual cost of producing the fuel, so it is not cheaper to produce as oil based fuel create more BTU per gallon produced, there was a great write up in Car & Driver on this.

In this day and age of Diesle and Hybrids the car companys would jump all over Hydrogen if it was efficient, but it is not.

jfachner72

From what i have read, and ford has produced "natural gas" cars there are problems with effectivly storing enough fuel to make a decent trip.

Back in the mid 90's my dealer principle was on the cover of "Dealer World" magizine introducing the "natural gas" ford contour....

Ford called it the wave of the future...I guess the future isnt here yet.

Long live the Rotary, **** the eco system....

Jay
1984 FB

aussiesmg

iTrader: (1)

Its called LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas) and is very common down-under, a full size tank is mounted in the trunk or under the bed in a truck and it is run with dual fuel, LPG and petrol (gas) at the flick of a switch. Costs about $2000 but at $4+ per gallon it is soon paid for, LPG runs 110 octane but they dilute it with Butane and the car has to be tuned to compromise between the LPG and regular gas so they usually lose some power.

LokiRx7.1

iTrader: (1)

LOL what was it top gear where they said, "sports cars shouldnt be enviromentally friendly, they go fast and in the process, they cause water pollution air pollution thinning of the ozone, global warming, but who really cares as long as your going fast, am I right??"

jays83gsl

I see GM folding the cards soon.
The new Camaro is CRAP. The 'Bird was always the good lookin' one, and I sure don't see hopes of a new 'Bird in the future.
One of GM's trump cards was Isuzu (gone). Another is Suburu. Once Suburu and Saab leave the equation, GM is done.

Dodge will last a long time. Once they drop Mitsu on their *** (nothing but a bunch of lag-asses, Mitsubishi. ONE good car!), they'll sweep that horrid bit of history under the carpet. They've got big, powerful sedans making decent gas mileage that LOOK GOOD, as well as the occasional econo-box (Calibur) that'll make schoolgirls have wet dreams. Paired with Mercedes, they're a juggernaut that wont be affected by 'current trends.'

Ford has one thing going for them: they bought a lot of companies a few years ago.
Mazda always has, and always will, keep the 'sports car' market alive. The RX4 coupe was one of the fastest goddamn Japanese cars in the seventies. The RX7 went head to head against the Z's and Supras of their day. The 8 stands ALMOST alone in its class, rivaled only by the 350, really. The Silvia got dropped on its ***. The Supra's gone for good (as is the Celica, and soon the MR2. **** Toyota). The 'Stang doesn't hold a candle to it in performance. And Honda's never had anything to offer in that class.
Volvo, another Ford company, is coming out with some awesome concepts (C series is bad ***).
And, with the introduction of Lotus to the 'states, they're making a killing there (on that note, Chevy should just sell the Corvette name to Lotus, as the only decent Corvette in it's sad fifty year history ran a Lotus motor).

The baby boomers are grown. They're looking for the sports car they never had. The ricers are growing, they're looking for sports cars they can't get YET. And the enthusiast market is getting bigger by the hour. Where will Toyota be when this generation of kids grows up, looking for a modern Supra or Celica GTS? Will they have the ***** to release it and tarnish their soccer mom loving name? Hell no.

Mazda and Nissan will forever be the 'primo' Japanese car manufacturers. The 3, MS6, 350Z, and G35 are among the best cars in their respective markets. The 8 is no slack.

LokiRx7.1

iTrader: (1)

Yeah unfortunately the Japanese have mostly took a **** on performance cars, so the Americans feel they have a niche, I really wish the Japanese sports cars of years past would make a comeback. But its really to bad, American companies may stay afloat, but they will no longer be the supergiants they once were. Look at Porsche and other german companies, they make a killing because of reliable performance. They have a quality product. for the last ten of fifteen years American companies have just started catching on. A car must be fast, but, it has to corner and stop as well. And it has to be Ultra reliable to take the punishment owners may dish out. American cars have never been synonomous with reliability, My mothers T/A spent as much time in the shop as on the road, as did my Camaro. Factory, Im sure they would last forever, but I dont like keeping my car stock.

Enter the rotary for me, a durable powerplant highly reliable and accepts modifications easily. Mitsubishi's 4-cylinders are the same, they are very durable. Any toyota engine, (older I-6's and I-4) also work well when modified. Nissan is the same as well. A 350 Chevrolet is the only motor that Ive worked on, where the stock internals could take a beating. 5.0's and anything smaller V-8 related usually requires a built bottom end before you can do a whole lot to it.

A V-8 in most forms will be faster than a rotary, although I have more fun in my Rx-7 than I ever did in my Camaro.

Besides all of you bastards would buy a retro Rx-7, Dont Lie!!!

FirebirdSlayer666

iTrader: (3)

^^^^^**** yeah I'd buy a retro 7 LOL. Retro it like the FB with moedernized bumpers, better wheels and tires, and some bigger brakes. Plus put a 20B in it or some sick modern 12A on steroids LOL

ChasRX

GM had the new camaro slated for production builds in late 2006. They canned the vehicle program in 2005. The company I work for actually had the contract for the weather sealing systems. Needless to say, we were very disappointed that the business was cancelled.

I'd buy a retro first gen RX7, though, right now! At least the body sheet metal tooling is paid for so they'd get a better ROI. Also, they could use the current RX8 engine / exhaust emissions to further increase ROI, as long as it wouldn't offset into RX8 sales.