DivinDriver

iTrader: (15)

For reference:

Here's a shot of where my distro was when I finished my last rebuild. Once timing was dialled in, the bolt shaft was closer to the rear of the slot, by about half the remaining gap. '80 12A, stock.

jonvo4591

thanks, for the reference pic. i will go dial it around when i get my new igition switch next week.

jonvo4591

ok, here i am again.

got my ignition switch, (thanks again Kent) plugged it in, it worked.
put on brand new plugs and wires, and cap, but napa didn't have a rotor.

anyways, after that, i poured a capful of seafoam down each primary barrel of the carb, and it fired right up. now i have another issue. it would hold idle when we messed around with the timing, but it would not rev up AT ALL. when it is idling, it sounds like not all three combustions are taking place on each rotor for every revolution, like it's misfiring evenly as it idles.

i also added a relay, and bigger wires to my DLIDFIS job, and that seemed to make some difference because the trailing plugs were sparking better.

i managed to get two videos, but neither of them would the car start. on the plus side, on the second vid, it shot out a nice backfire for you guys who wanted to hear it.

if anyone can diagnose a problem for me thru a video, or even take a wild guess, that would make my life a whole lot easier.


ok right now, only the second one is working, so here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzLNX2eUJlk

Devy55

iTrader: (2)

I haven't read all the posts, but from what you described, I bet you got the wrong fuel pump installed.

Check your fuel pump and make sure it produces the correct PSI.

My fuel pump went bad and I needed to fix it. Anyway, being in a hurry I went through 2 generic inline electric pumps and was dissatisfied with the performance. They idled rough and backfired alot. The last one really produced violent backfires which concerned me.

Then I checked their PSI and one was 5.5 to 7, and the other 7 to 9. Both were pushing way too much fuel into the carb and I suspect were more than the needle valves could control and regulate.

According to the Haynes RX7 manual, my car only required 3.7 to 4.7 PSI. So got a I got a Delphi fuel pump compatible with my RX7 that put out about 4.5 PSI and things smoothed out.

I bet you put a performance fuel pump on and that caused your extreme backfire.

jonvo4591

i ordered whatever stock pump it was from napa. i think it was a carter. looked just like the one i took off there. would a Fuel pressure regulator do me any good?

oh, and here's my other video, me in the driver's seat, and my dad with the camera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5lpxffl-Qk

Ogre

Sounds alot like what happened to me with my truck, ford with a 351 windsor. going down the road kaboom, i didnt have a muffler anymore (sorry no pix). put a new one on did the same did some checking and my timing was off. my 7 hasnt done this too me (yet). sorry man dont have any answers just an idea?

GORacing

Watched the vids... classic sign of the engine only firing on one rotor, problem I notice was, there was no sounds of the opposing rotor's compression (might be quality of vid), did you get the car this way or did it occure while in your posession?

Ok, Basic rotary troubleshooting by the numbers, (remember this is to bring engine to run, not for final tuning)
1. pull leading plugs only, unplug dist power, crank engine - looking for a consistant strong pressure pulses alternating out of each rotor housing - if yes continue to next, if no, go to an engine compression testing/rebuild thread...
2. while cranking did you notice fuel vapor coming from both rotors? if yes continue, if no, remember which rotor had vapor for later reference and continue...
3. remove trailing plugs and throw all plugs away, plugs for pre 86 rotaries have very little tolerance to flooding and even though it sounds like there may be a plug firing, which one is it? (placing them on the fender and rotating the engine is not an accurate test, at best it will only tell you which plugs are totally dead, and nothing about how they will operate when the pressure in the chamber places a much higher electrical load on the plug), inspect cap and rotor for contaminates, cracks, carbon tracks, test for failed spark plug wires, replace as required...
4. with a timing light on the #1 leading plug wire, verify that the ign is firing at or at least near the leading timing mark (use a crayon to mark it, ID the leading by facing pulley and the Leading mark will be the mark to the right of the two) correct as required (in you posts you discribed a possible trailing ign problem, because of this, for now, simple disable the trailing ign, it has no effect during starting unless it was incorrectly timed)
5. at this point we should have confirmed basic engine internal and leading ign functions... now - fuel, (no offence intended), Nikki carbs are complex in all the jetting and passeges, adjusments etc, and most carb rebuild kits come with multiple gaskets with different hole arrangements depending on application and year, did you match old with new gaskets as you removed them, did you map all the jets when you pulled them out, did you follow and blow clear all passeges, etc... have you checked with a mirror and flashlight to make sure both float bowls have fuel and at the correct level? did you set the fuel mixture screw and throttle blade angles to base setting as discribed in the rebuild instructions? at step 2 check the side of the carb that corrisponds with the rotor that did not have fuel vapor coming out of it, troubleshoot and correct as required...
6. there are a lot of vacuum lines, solenoids and dash pots associated with the carb did you reattach them correctly (no, not the way they came off... but correctly, in accordance to the vacuum line diagram that is under the hood), did you check the check the integrity of the vacuum dash pot diaphrams (requires a hand vacuum pump), most importantly check the shutter valve, located on the intake right below the carb on the rear rotor primary runner (the little throttle valve looking thing in the manifold itself), this is really important as a failed shutter valve is a source of a very large vacuum leak that will cause same symptoms you are encountering...
7. if you have followed all of these steps and corrected as required, you should now have a running engine, then we can correct any others one at a time... hope this helps

Oh and the back fire is from the non-firing rotor dumping lots of raw fuel air mixture (and the extra fuel the accel pump is pushing into it), into the exhaust and being ignited by the firing rotors exhaust, you may find better luck pumping 7-10 times then hold throttle cracked open slightly until engine fires, do not pump while engine is cranking...

jonvo4591

ok goracing, thanks for the good info. i will definitely be trying all this today.

but a few things first.

i just put brand new plugs, wires, and dizzy cap on it, and that is what made it fire up.
i didn't do a rotor because napa didn't have one in stock anywhere. the one i have appears to be fine, i suppose i could check it with an ohm meter or something to be sure...

would a good test for spark be an inline spark tester? it goes in the wire before the plug and sparks where you can see it, while still firing the plug. i also did DLIDFIS, and the leading ign. now sparks a lot better than before. the main reason i did this was cuz i blew an ignitor, and i did the whole system with GM ignitors for less than it was to buy a brand new j109.

second, on my eshaft pulley, i cant make out any timing marks, i think they are supposed to be notched in the pully, is this right? should i take a wire brush down there and see if i can clean them up?

thirdly, as for the carb rebuild, i did everything just as you said for the gasket matching, and blowing everything out, not to mention cleaning the crap out of it.

the only thing i haven't done is check the rear float bowl with a mirror, i know i have a mirror, i must just be too lazy to bring it outside. that will be one of my things to do for today...

Fourthly,
i removed my rat's nest as per the tutorial.

what exactly are these dashpots you speak of. i know for sure that my shutter valve is bad, but i just wired it in the open position, and plugged both vac. ports off.

i'll try as much as i possibly can today of what you gave me, and thanks for all the info. i'll basically be double checking everything i already did, but sometimes that's what it takes.

i hope i get somewhere today!

GORacing

OK, parts changed so far sounds good, as a precaution, have another set of plugs on hand since we still are not sure what is actually causing the problem... (only change the leading plugs as required, until the engine is running on all rotors), in many years of troubleshooting I have found that even new plugs will only tolerate 3-4 start cycles before they begin to degrade ( fire inconsistantly), from fuel or oil fowling... inline spark testers only show if the system is providing voltage enough to jump a gap, and only if the plug is providing a ground path, it does not show if the plug is firing across the proper electrode gap were it needs to (Note - gas or oil fowling occures when enough of the liquid seeps into or around the insulator and provides an alternate path for the spark to electrically pass, once started, this path becomes a carbon track from the heat of the spark passing through it and will continue allowing voltage to pass through it even if the plug is externally cleaned or appear good, this is also why plug manufacture do not recommend using carb cleaner or other spray solvents to clear contaminants from the firing end as they may force liquid into or around the insultor, spraying a hot or warm plug may also cause the insulator to crack or shrink within the case which also is bad for the same reasons)... the only functional plug tester is one that applies pressure equivalalnt to that seen during compression and airflow around the firing end while high voltage is applied to, the spark is visably observed to see if it can be "blown out" during the test, a manufacture marked gauge is used to judge proper operation...
rotor - continuity or ohm check not very helpfull when looking for a carbon track (crossfire), type failure, only a high voltage tester works for this, so if a visual inspection inside and out, looks ok, go with it until it appears to be the only thing left...

DLIDFIS ? do not reconize acronym... but understand the GM ignitor mod

Yes wire brush away, should be two marks, 1//16" deep and about 5/8" apart on the back edge of the inner most puller, you can narrow your search down a little... with the leading plugs removed and power off, seal the #1 (front) leading plug hole with your finger OVER the hole not in it, then move the pulley clockwise as quickly as you can, when you feel pressure start to build you are close to were you need to start looking...

Ok, Carb thing sound ok... yeah the rats nest "tutorial", does not really tell all... if the car is running fine don't do it, and only 79-80 models benefit with no hidden problems... next, with the exception of disabling the EGR valve (one solenoid wire connection to remove to disable), none of the other emission systems effect power at all and I do not remember it addressing the removal of the shutter valve... However, in fairness it is a start, removal does drastically improve the look of the engine bay, and will eliminate problem sources in the future but for best results on 81+ models that rely on that rats nest for idle quality, add a vacuum line to the port directly above the idle mixture screw (81+ no longer has an idle air bleed screw there like the 79-80 models did for idle adjustment as it relies on a controlled leaking of air from the rats nest componants), and in that line add a small valve (a fish tank air bubbler adjust valve works great), and then route up to filtered side of the air cleaner, this removes the problem many have with having to open up the blade angle too much and losing sensitivity in the idle mixture adjustment and off idle stumble...

Finally, the fact that you state the shutter valve has already shown signs of failure will most likely be the actual problem... there are two failure types with the shutter valve, failure type 1 - one side of the internal valve (actuating diaphram side) fails and leaks air from one of the aircleaner ports directly to the manifold (located inside filter seal ring on engine side of aircleaner towards the firewall about 1/4" diameter) this can be temporarily fixed by pluging the small aircleaner port... failure type 2 - is the internal valve mechanism seals have failed and it leaks all around the housing and is not fixable without removal and replacement/or by removal and blocking off all the ports in the manifold, both pretty much require carb removal... if you are not sure about the shutter valve and if you can not find any other faults, and you can get it to run long enough, then spray around the shutter valve area with carb cleaner and listen for changes...

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Dual Leading Ignitor Direct Fire Ignition System

You can use stock J-109s or GM HEI ignitors. Both types work great. It depends on what you have in your area.

nick812

I had mine happen just as I got to an autocross. I was running a mukini.

GORacing

Ok, gotcha... fancy for a wasted spark system... and I found the posting showing jonvo4591's installation, hope you guys are using the thermo gel under the modules...

jonvo4591

ok,

i messed around with it a while this afternoon.

i cleaned the plugs, checked over everything that i previously did to it, and made sure it was all good.

then i told my dad to come take a look at the carb window on the back float bowl, because i couldn't see anything, and wanted to know if he could. he couldn't see anything either. so i pulled the top of the carb off (again), and cleaned everything and made sure fuel could get through the inlets. moved the floats up and down to make sure they weren't stuck, and put it all back together.

we also tested compression with a boinger tester. i found that all the pulses were even on the rear rotor when holding the relief valve on the compression tester open, and there were three surges if the valve was left shut. on the front rotor, there were three even pulses when the valve was open, but only two when it was allowed to shut. i'm not sure what this amounts to yet.

the only thing i hadn't tried yet was to check the timing. we coulnd't even get the marks close at all where the dizzy was at, and it was quite rusted, and hard to turn.

after a lot of PB blaster (love this stuff), and two screwdrivers prying it back and forth, it was free enough to turn by hand. we still couldn't get it close. so we muscled the dizzy out and turned it over a tooth....

...and to make a very long story short, after a lot of turning and messing around, i was going to the bathroom or something and my dad got it running like awesome, then it ran out of gas. we made sure it was gas by pouring a little down the carb, and it fired up. so we went and got some gas, and now i am gonna go see if she runs =)

jonvo4591

it's alive once again.

still sounds like it's only on one rotor though. although, when you pull one leading plug wire, it changes, and when you pull the other leading plug wire it changes too. so it's sparking good on the leading. i know i am getting good fuel to both rotors too. i still wonder about the compression test though. only two pulses on the front rotor when the compression was allowed to build up in the gauge. hmmm...

also, it will not rev up at all past 2000 rpms. it starts cutting out and missing all over the place when you try and rev it up that high. i just don't know. i guess i have more issues than i thought.

although in some ways, i kinda hope to rebuild it, and in other ways, i'd rather the engine be just fine.

oh well, just thought i'd give another update. if you have any suggestions, go for it.

thanks.

jonvo4591

bump? any ideas guys? i'll try and get a video of it running next week.

i am also gonna go search around right now.

GORacing

does it idle?, have you checked timing again now that it does (leading and trailing), try disabling the trailing timing, again can not place enough emphisis on correct timing... check you float level while reving, sounds like you still might be running out of fuel, does the vent solenoid on top of carb have power and pop open when key is turned on? now we may need to start looking at fuel filter blockage, fuel line routing and condition (no sqashed lines or kinks), pump pressure, etc... just quick check items...

compression need to be done with the check valve (looks like a tire valve core) out and leave your finger off the pressure relief valve (not sure which one you have each is a little different)...

jonvo4591

it holds idle nice, but it definitely does not run right. it shakes all over and vibrates the whole car. today i did some research on how to find TDC using the flywheel, and the Eshaft keyway, and jeff's wire method, etc. i want to know if my pully is on wrong, because we could not get it to run right. so i think tomorrow, i will find TDC, then put my pulley on the right way if it's not already. then i'll have to re **** the dizzy to the right way, and see what happens. we did check the timing while it was running, and after turning the dizzy a few teeth over and such, we managed to get the leading mark lined up with the pointer.

based on what i've read today, if you can turn your dizzy, and it improves, you're pulley may be off. i don't know.

as for fuel, i never watched the floats while revving, so i'll have to do that.

the float bowl vent solenoid was modded so the bowls are always vented.

i replaced the fuel filter when i did the pump, but who knows what's in the gas tank that could clog that up, so i will check that, and look for kinked lines anwhere down there.

if you just let the compression gauge sit there and don't touch it while cranking, the rear rotor had three pulses, and the front only had two. and the number on the rear was higher than the front, but with the spark plugs out when you earball it, there are three very strong, even whooshes coming out of each hole.

now i have some more things to try tomorrow.

jonvo4591

i suppose i could revive this thread again.

small update time, guys,

my timing is now spot on, and i have verified that my fuel and ignition systems are functioning proplerly, thanks to mperformance who helped me out a lot on my other thread.

we figured out i have a vacuum issue.

if anyone was following this thread, or for future reference if searching, please refer to my other thread as i pretty much just continue my story from here.

for the sake of cleanliness on the boards, this thread can be allowed to die, and from now on, please refer to:

https://www.rx7club.com/1st-generation-specific-1979-1985-18/pic-my-dlidfis-installed-767010/

thanks,

Jon