How to drain gas tank
#51
ancient wizard...
Now that we know I have spark and so that can be ruled out as my problem, it looks like now I need to look at "compression" and "fuel" (what about "air" ? )
i do do not have any equipment to test compression or fuel pressure, etc. Is there a cheap fast down and dirty way to check these things? Or should I take my car to a shop at this point?
i do do not have any equipment to test compression or fuel pressure, etc. Is there a cheap fast down and dirty way to check these things? Or should I take my car to a shop at this point?
#52
GSL SE
Thread Starter
Use a turkey Bastet and inject about 20 cc of engine oil into each leading plug hole. Turning fan is...turning fan against fan clutch which does not turn engine over. Easiest way is to grab a/c compressor drive belt and pull toward you. This belt is connected directly to e shaft=crankshaft in piston engine. Pulling on belt will turn engine over,reach down as far as you can on top run of belt and pull,you'll get about 6" of belt in one pull. Do this about 20x,that will give you about 6 revolutions of the engine. Will caution you to not pinch your hand between belt and a/c pulley.
what if I just cranked the engine for 1/4 sec 6x ?
#54
ancient wizard...
^^^^ this...i was trying to suggest easiest way for you to turn engine over. You want to turn engine slowly by hand to allow oil to spread out uniformly around housing and rotor. Spinning it with the starter-even short bursts? will be too fast and just push the oil out of plug holes and exhaust ports defeating the purpose. Want to reiterate,strongly suspect engine is mechanically ok. Been repeatedly flooded and compression likely low because of loss of oil film from all the fuel... Do not know if you're in a rural area but want to suggest you remove air cleaner lid and pull air filter out and look down in bottom of air filter housing for any rodent infestation=mouse nest material. May want to remove air intake tube that runs across front of car from air filter inlet to be sure it's clear. Likewise remove air intake boot between airflow meter and upper chamber of intake manifold and make sure there's nothing in there. Use a mirror and look into airflow meter for obstructions-or my preference is remove complete air cleaner assembly so you can look inside airflowmeter from both sides and carefully manipulate flap door to be sure it is free. There will be slight resistance (spring) and should return to closed position smoothly/consistently.
#55
ancient wizard...
Brief explanation of airflow meter: when engine is cranked over the air it pulls in(through airflow meter,air filter housing) causes the flap door to move slightly open,this closes a set of contacts that completes fuel pump circuit allowing it to build pressure to start car. This is why car always cranks a few revolutions before it fires up. Once running,engine pulls more volume of air in causing door to open proportionate to throttle applied. The pivot the airflow meter flap door rides on is attached to a wiper that slides across a carbon variable resistor sending an ever changing signal to ECU for fuel quantity calibration dependent on throttle opening. ANYTHING that impedes either airflow or physically binds the flap door can potentially cause ALL the symptoms you're experiencing. Lack of sufficient amount of air to support combustion? I strongly suggest you diligently examine all the air intake pieces mentioned. The car has sat more than long enough for critters to have made it their home,have seen this scenario enough times on cars,trucks,motorcycles over the years i could write a book on it. For all the time you've spent working on the car trying to get it to run,spend some time here before continuing to try starting car. This could be the proverbial wild goose chase but all it will cost you is your time and again this is money you'd be paying someone at shop rate to investigate what you can do for yourself. Should all this prove fruitless,video your next start attempt so we can see/hear it and maybe pick something out that may help.
#56
GSL SE
Thread Starter
^^^^ this...i was trying to suggest easiest way for you to turn engine over. You want to turn engine slowly by hand to allow oil to spread out uniformly around housing and rotor. Spinning it with the starter-even short bursts? will be too fast and just push the oil out of plug holes and exhaust ports defeating the purpose. Want to reiterate,strongly suspect engine is mechanically ok. Been repeatedly flooded and compression likely low because of loss of oil film from all the fuel... Do not know if you're in a rural area but want to suggest you remove air cleaner lid and pull air filter out and look down in bottom of air filter housing for any rodent infestation=mouse nest material. May want to remove air intake tube that runs across front of car from air filter inlet to be sure it's clear. Likewise remove air intake boot between airflow meter and upper chamber of intake manifold and make sure there's nothing in there. Use a mirror and look into airflow meter for obstructions-or my preference is remove complete air cleaner assembly so you can look inside air flow meter from both sides and carefully manipulate flap door to be sure it is free. There will be slight resistance (spring) and should return to closed position smoothly/consistently.
I was going to put the oil in as you suggest and then put the plugs back into the engine. So cranking it with short burst would not spit the oil out of the plug holes but didn't know about the exhaust ports. But I think I can see what you mean, I would also be introducing fuel at the same time anyway?
Putting a 19mm socket on the eshaft bolt looks like I have to remove a lot of things in front to get to that. And I don't even know what that is, but I assume its a bolt in the middle of the (crank) shaft independent from the fan...
The car has been garaged. It last ran in July 2015, and like a champ. Everything came crashing down when we fixed the leak at the fuel pump, and then the fuel pump stopped working. Strange set of coincidences? Replace fuel pump with a used pump I bought from someone here in the Club. It wasn't an exact replacement but would work, or so I was told. It does work (the last time I listened) but now I wonder if it is producing the proper pressure or flow.
Before I remove all the air induction system and inspect that, I want to test the fuel pump again. To Test: If I jump the two connectors on the black rubber cover connector at the air pump (see previous photos) does the ignition have to be ON? Or can I jump it without keys in the ignition? I believe this test will allow me to HEAR it running. Yes?
As for inserting oil into the bottom rotors and lubricating the rotors and housing, I will need to figure out another way to move the crankshaft. Maybe I will have to put an AC belt on to do that...
20cc = 1.4 tablespoons, yes?
#57
ancient wizard...
About 1 1/2 tablespoons yes. Put a ratchet,suitable extension and 3/4" or 19 mm socket onto center bolt middle of lowest pulley and turn clockwise thru several revolutions. Putting oil in and cranking with plugs in will just foul plugs with oil and gas,serves no purpose.. jump 2 terminals on connector,turn key to on will run pump.
#58
84SE-EGI helpy-helperton
On a whim,...
Tell us some more about that fuel pump you bought from a forum member.
You do realize that the EFI system on the -SEs relies on a high pressure fuel pump which puts out 40-60psi vs the 2-3psi which a carbeurated car would use, right? The SE fuel pump would be unique to this model. Also, if it was purchased used, did you bench test it to ensure adequate flow?
Do you still have the old fuel pump you removed?
You do realize that the EFI system on the -SEs relies on a high pressure fuel pump which puts out 40-60psi vs the 2-3psi which a carbeurated car would use, right? The SE fuel pump would be unique to this model. Also, if it was purchased used, did you bench test it to ensure adequate flow?
Do you still have the old fuel pump you removed?
#59
GSL SE
Thread Starter
About 1 1/2 tablespoons yes. Put a ratchet,suitable extension and 3/4" or 19 mm socket onto center bolt middle of lowest pulley and turn clockwise thru several revolutions. Putting oil in and cranking with plugs in will just foul plugs with oil and gas,serves no purpose.. jump 2 terminals on connector,turn key to on will run pump.
#60
GSL SE
Thread Starter
Tell us some more about that fuel pump you bought from a forum member.
You do realize that the EFI system on the -SEs relies on a high pressure fuel pump which puts out 40-60psi vs the 2-3psi which a carbeurated car would use, right? The SE fuel pump would be unique to this model. Also, if it was purchased used, did you bench test it to ensure adequate flow?
Do you still have the old fuel pump you removed?
You do realize that the EFI system on the -SEs relies on a high pressure fuel pump which puts out 40-60psi vs the 2-3psi which a carbeurated car would use, right? The SE fuel pump would be unique to this model. Also, if it was purchased used, did you bench test it to ensure adequate flow?
Do you still have the old fuel pump you removed?
#61
GSL SE
Thread Starter
I don't know if I still have the original pump but I have a photo of it alongside the one I purchased, and according to the invoice, it reads "used aftermarket fuel pump for a 1984 Mazda RX-7 GSL-SE 13B model." (see photo — it's obvious which is the original.) And no, I did not know anything about a 40-60psi high pressure fuel pump vs any other pump... Outside this forum, getting accurate info about this car has always been a concern of mine.
#62
ancient wizard...
I don't know if I still have the original pump but I have a photo of it alongside the one I purchased, and according to the invoice, it reads "used aftermarket fuel pump for a 1984 Mazda RX-7 GSL-SE 13B model." (see photo — it's obvious which is the original.) And no, I did not know anything about a 40-60psi high pressure fuel pump vs any other pump... Outside this forum, getting accurate info about this car has always been a concern of mine.
#63
ancient wizard...
I'm from the camp that insists on proving a part is defective before replacing it,that said i replaced my pump a couple years ago. It still worked fine and i kept it for a backup/parts. I replaced all the rubber lines in complete fuel system with ethanol compatible fuel hose and replaced the pump along with the lines because of its age. I installed the oe pump assly. pictured. I paid less than that advertised price shipped to me,shop around,they are still available from Mazda dealerships. I had to wait about 8 weeks for it but was in no hurry as my car was getting a thorough mechanical restore/upgrade at the time.
#64
GSL SE
Thread Starter
Yes, please post pics of the pressure gauge and where and how to test the fuel pressure. Thanks!!
#65
ancient wizard...
#66
ancient wizard...
Ok,had time to take some pics. Pics my fingers are pointing to is fuel return line. The feed line from the pump is the more forward facing hose,this is where you will tee in your gauge. Slide off hose clamp(original hoseclamps are spring loaded. I replaced my fuel line and used new FI hose clamps) with some needle nose pliers and twist hose to loosen. Be careful to not twist the steel line removing the hose> A lot of SE models with age on them,mine included prove difficult to remove these hoses. I was renewing my fuel hose so i used a razor blade and sliced hose lengthwise at the ends to be able to work them off easier. You may wish to plan on replacing these sections of fuel hose . Pull line off and install the hose side of the tee to the steel fuel line and clamp in place. Insert opposite barbed end of tee into line that was removed and clamp in place. Jumper the fuel test connector,turn key on and read fuel pressure on gauge In this scenario,fuel pressure should be between 50-70 psi. Fuel pressure with engine idling should be about 30 psi.
#67
GSL SE
Thread Starter
Thank you! I will get a kit from Auto Zone. Will the pressure results be immediate or will it take several seconds? And will this test give any indication of the health of my fuel filter also? If I don't get the necessary pressure how will I know if the problem is with the pump or fuel filter? Thanks!
#68
ancient wizard...
On a healthy pump, it will register pressure immediately and hold steady and have a subdued hum while running. Pressure should be what i posted previously,if lower than minimum spec,check voltage at pump while it's running. Regarding fuel filter,you stated previously you replaced it,car has accrued no mileage. Aside from possibly having some junk in it from a dirty,possibly rusty tank,should be ok. If pressure comes up immediately,that's good enough proof for now. When you turn key off,fuel system should hold pressure for at least 1/2 hour,preferably longer,so leave fuel pressure gauge attached for some time after done testing. The longer the system holds pressure is a good indication that internal parts of system are intact. Also a lot less messy if you wait til system pressure bleeds off to near zero before you disconnect gauge. In pic of my gauge,the smaller hose coming out is for venting fuel pressure into a container by pushing the button above it,allows me to disconnect gauge immediately after finishing pressure tests which saves time and less messy. All gauges don't have this feature,the one you borrow/rent may not.
#70
GSL SE
Thread Starter
On a healthy pump, it will register pressure immediately and hold steady and have a subdued hum while running. Pressure should be what i posted previously,if lower than minimum spec,check voltage at pump while it's running. Regarding fuel filter,you stated previously you replaced it,car has accrued no mileage. Aside from possibly having some junk in it from a dirty,possibly rusty tank,should be ok. If pressure comes up immediately,that's good enough proof for now. When you turn key off,fuel system should hold pressure for at least 1/2 hour,preferably longer,so leave fuel pressure gauge attached for some time after done testing. The longer the system holds pressure is a good indication that internal parts of system are intact. Also a lot less messy if you wait til system pressure bleeds off to near zero before you disconnect gauge. In pic of my gauge,the smaller hose coming out is for venting fuel pressure into a container by pushing the button above it,allows me to disconnect gauge immediately after finishing pressure tests which saves time and less messy. All gauges don't have this feature,the one you borrow/rent may not.
#71
1st Gens are the Best
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This is basically the same thread over and over again for GSL SEs. Check the fuel pressure AND the volume If either is bad or marginal take out your tank, clean and seal it, there are a lot of good kits out there. Do a proper compression check. This is where most running problems with the GSLSEs lie. Since you have spark I bet this is why you are having problems.
#72
GSL SE
Thread Starter
Mazdatrix sells a brand new GSLSE gas tank for $523. If this was my problem I would have opted for this solution a long time ago, but I wondered if draining the tank and putting fresh gasoline in would be an easy way to remove the "bad gasoline?" idea as my problem. Hence my post, "How to drain a gas tank?" in the 1st Generation category.
#73
GSL SE
Thread Starter
fuel pressure test kit
Picked this up from Auto Zone today. It's a loaner. $164 deposit that is refunded when you return it. I have 3 days. There's a lot of little parts probably for a lot of little fittings. It comes with instructions and the instructions from GSLSEforme are clear so I will attempt to do this test tomorrow (Sunday) and I will try to record the fiasco so you can see what I did and how it went..I have a couple fire extinguishers
#75
GSL SE
Thread Starter