DarrenTRS

iTrader: (1)

So while the 7 is still down getting stripped to the core and rebuilt to fix all it's lingering issues electrical and mechanical, I've had an abundance of time to sit around and think and look into different paths I could go with the car as far as a mild n/a build.

Currently I'm once again looking into fuel injection solutions for my S3 13B, swapping motors isn't something I feel is neccessary or really worth it considering I know my current motor is still healthy on the inside but slacking on the out so it's time to give it some proper TLC.

My point for the topic is a discussion, sharing of ideas and discoveries when it comes to IDA/IDF/DCOE/DHLA etc. type Fuel Injection Throttle Bodies, who makes them, how much the cost, what they come with, what they need, and things of that nature.

My questions:
1. Who still makes them? particularly in the US, I've found maybe 1 website of a US supplier but no direct online store so I'm not sure.
2. How many injector bosses do they have? Granted the stock GSL-SE got away with just two primary injectors I have thought about re-using those bosses again along with 2 on the TB for 4 injectors or simply using the 2 or possibly 4 on the manifold.
3. Will a GSL-SE or FC TPS work with them? Generic question.
4. Vertical, or Horizontal? IDA or DHLA.
5. What managment? This gets more into probably the 2nd gen section or even the management section but I figured I'd throw it in there, I've looked into something like the Haltech Sprint RE.

Aside from TWM, TweakIt and EFI Hardware I recently came across Jenvey Fuel Injection and Induction Systems across the pond in the UK, this is the package I've "built" w/o injectors and the price seems awesome:

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/
http://www.tweakit.net/shop/index.php
http://www.efihardware.com/index.php

Any thoughts? Suggestions? Directions to the psych ward?

Disclamer, I know there are other topics matter but are also years and years old and I'm hoping to keep this one more thorough and informative.

Crispin38

iTrader: (3)

Don't think you can get much better than Tweakit from Australia.
That's all I can say.

DarrenTRS

iTrader: (1)

Ah. Another point I forgot to add is that the Jenvey would also allow me to keep my current manifolds [stock LIM and RB UIM] as well keep the length of the manfiold at a respectable distance, No 5+6 port sleeves [should probably get the pineapple inserts] already make my low end abismal with the dell and no air horns, any shorter and it won't be worth driving on the streets around here.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

1. TWM, they are a little hard to buy but they are only like $400. sam's got a fuji racing one

2. IMO you still want to use the stock primaries, mazda's paper shows that there is no difference in power by using the ones on the TB, but the stock primaries offer better response and mileage

3. nope. everything is designed to use a rotary style TPS. every TPS is a 0-5V sensor though, so electrically they are all compatible.

4. up to you! horizontal can work with the stock LIM, if you want. its not a carb, so it doesn't care which way its pointed.

5. up to you again. stock ECU wont work, but just about anything else will....

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

I've had issues with TWM throttle bodies warping slightly when they warm up and the throttle shafts not operation smoothly. It's been years since I've used one, but it's an annoying issue.

What are you power goals? As mentioned above, you could use the primaries and use them by themselves depending on your power goals. For a mild NA engine, a pair of 750 or even 850s could run the whole show. Would simplify the plumbing, be much less expensive, and you'd avoid having to tune a staged setup.

The Sprint RE is a nice little ECU. If you have any specific questions about it feel free to drop me a PM.

DarrenTRS

iTrader: (1)

End goals for the n/a would just be a large street port w/ an RB or RW Header and exhaust, along with accompanied tune. I've thought about a tII swap but I don't think I'm ready to deal with that whole bag of tricks until a chassis or two later, right now I'd just like to keep this one as simple and clean as possible.

I guess this will have to go into the 2nd gen section or I'll have to molest the search button some more but I currently run an MSD 6A leading along with stock trailing, now when converting "back" to Fuel Injection this would require me to run a CAS, IIRC I cannot just run a single MSD box for the leading and leave the trailing to be stock, should I just acquire some FC Coils and run a stock FC ignition setup? Or is there a middle ground somewhere.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

you could do either one actually. few different ways to skin the cat.

you could do a fuel only install. this is the simplest way

if you wanted a full ignition+fuel ecu, you can (or used to) be able to keep the distributor, it even used to be in the haltech instructions. the ecu uses the pickups in the distributor, and then the distributor just distributes the spark

RXDad

iTrader: (2)

For your horsepower goals and configuration, the megasquirt ECU can be a nice economical alternative. Kits and fully assembled are available. There are lots of people on the site with experience with the Megasquirt.

Look here:

https://www.rx7club.com/megasquirt-forum-153/

http://www.DIYAutotune.com

RXDad

Verneuil

Im currently doing a fuel injection setup on my 12A. Im using the megasquirt 2 ecu. and Autonomics 4 barrel throttle body. http://www.auto-nomics.com/cgi-bin/s...part=12168-001 I just received the throttle body which is the last big part. Im looking around now for the right fuel injectors as they use the EV1 style injectors which are the older style.

RXDad

iTrader: (2)

Been there. I used 42 lb/min Ford Racing green tops.


RXDad

DarrenTRS

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the links RXDad and Verneuil, couple of questions:
1. Do all 4 blades open together or is it progressive like mechanical secondaries.
2. How was throttle response give 4bbls vs. say a large 2bbl like the Dell/Weber.
3. Do you happen to know if or what the CFM rating for it is?
4. Are the possibly boost compatable?

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

with regards to the Autonomics throttle body setup:
1. they open at the same time, but there is a way to modify it for secondary delay.

2. i can't answer this yet. my brother has the Autonomics setup on his car and we're trying to get it running with his Megasquirt. i have a TWM IDA and am nowhere near setting that up yet.

3. if i recall, i think it was 750 or 850 as is, but i think there was an option to have it machined to 1000 for extra money.

4. yes, but you may have to machine some channels on the underside of it. there is a thread detailing the issues that someone had with a turbo application and how he dealt with said issues.


on a side note: i got introduced to Jenvey and DTA throttles a few days ago and i like what i see, so i found it kind of crazy that you posted on Jenvey when i opened this thread.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

wow. is this what i have to look forward to? this is a bit disheartening ....

do you think a set of phenolic spacers will help prevent the warping? also, how did you handle the throttle sticking? at this point, mine move freely, but in the same breath, it's never been used, so ....

RXDad

iTrader: (2)

You can also have the TB bushed down to 7/8" which gives you about 500 CFM to keep the velocity up for good mixing. I have modified the linkage to run off of the primaries during cruising. Very good throttle response with this set-up. What happens if you just bush the primaries?....hadn't thought of that.

RXDad

Verneuil

RXDad How did you modify the linkage?

DarrenTRS

iTrader: (1)

As Verneuil asked, some more info on that linkage mod would be greatly appreciated as with what C. Ludwig said I could run just off a set of 750/850s in the stock location and would keep the injectors as close to the engine as possible, less plumbing and less injectors so I think the Auto-Nomics might be a bit overkill for what I'm looking for, plus it would require me to get a Holley Manfiold upping the price to more then what the price of the Jenvey setup is.

Also since I've only ever delt with my carbed 13B and haven't had a chance to deal with the stock Fuel Injection for the GSL-SE, are the injectors 11mm or 14mm?

Looks like the shopping list for this conversion will be.

Jenvey Throttle Body
2 Injector Plugs [for the TB]
48mm Air Horns

2x 750cc High Imp. Injectors
Stock GSL-SE Fuel Rail & FPD Am I going to need an FPD and do the GSL-SE's carry some of the same dangers as the notorious engine fires of the FC and FDs
Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump ??? not sure if this would suffice
Mallory Ignition 4305M FPR 30-100psi

Throttle Position Sensor
Air Intake Temp Sensor
MAP Sensor
GM Temp Sensor
Flying Lead Kit
Crank Angle Sensor
Innovative LC-1 Wideband
Megasquirt I'll still have to read up on the modification process to get a MS unit to work with a rotary but I have a buddy who is pretty fluent with MS so I should have that covered.
FC Coil Packs

Alot of patience too bad you can't buy this

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i wouldn't buy a used one, but honda's all have the same FPD, the danger is overstated...

1sgen

iTrader: (1)

check out injection perfection throttle bodies , i had mine about for about 8 or 9 years now , they are 50mm , the throttle cable hooks straight on it and im pushing 580 rwhp in these babies with no problems , i have the ida style but i know they also make the holley style ones , as a matter of fact back in 09 i was in sydney and visited them and they were designing 2000 cfm one , what for , i dont know . lol
injectionperfection.com.au

Boriquaguerrero

iTrader: (18)

I have on my 12 A. ACEEL TB with 4 Accel Fuel Injectors, RB intake and a MICROTECH

Verneuil

Thats the Auto-Nomics TB. What did you pay for that? The MSII is way better for rotary than a microtech. Ken has tuned the MS2extra code very well for the rotary.

RXDad

iTrader: (2)

Autonomics TB linkage mod for progressive secondaries.

http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo9.html

Thanks Verneil for the link.

RXDad

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

agreed. just go with what's compatible with what you already have. get it running and work out the finer details (like number of injectors and placement) then - at least, that's what i'd probably do.

Boriquaguerrero

iTrader: (18)

i pay 380 for the TB and from what i seen most of the faster rotary from P.R , AUstralia and the U.S use the microtech.

Verneuil

Microtech is way to much. MS will do everything and more. Check out diyautotune.com and read about the MSII its 270 for the MSII plus 30 for the zeal and if u get the wirring harness.

DarrenTRS

iTrader: (1)

In search of cheaper alternatives than all of the above I've talked to a buddy of mine and looked over some old "manfiold swaps" and it looks like an S4/S5 intake might be a viable option because at this point for an n/a build, even buying the Jenvey would be almost pointless because it would only serve to hold a TPS sensor and control throttle since the injectors would be in the stock primary position...hell I could probably plug up my Dellorto and run a speed density setup with no TPS at all but yea, back to this latest round of questions.

S4 and S5 intakes, problems and solutions.

Bolting an S3 lower to an S4/5 upper is a no-dice as the bolt patterns seem to be off though the ports appear to line up, has anyone modified either the upper or the S3 lower to allow for a mating?

Bolting an S4/5 lower & upper to an S3 block is do able but there is one issue and one possible problem.
Reason this even came up is my buddy has a few S4 manifolds and I could possibly get an S5 manfiold for a heavily discounted price of zero dollars thus solving a nearly $500 investment in a throttle body, granted I know the S4/5 manifolds probably won't lend themselves to top end as well as something like the DCOE/IDA/Holley Throttle Bodies but $500 buys lot of other parts I need outside of this fuel injection setup.