first gen third gen motor swap
11-18-05, 04:24 PM
#1
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first gen third gen motor swap
i've had my 85 gsl for about 8 or 9 years and i love it... my wife can't stand it and i can't get ride of either of them, so i have desided to start project rx all over again!!! my 12a is a great motor and i've enjoyed the modifying and tweaking on it and making it bigger and badder.... but, i feel the time has come for me to step off in to the real world of power!!! i have gotten my hands on a third gen twin turbo and i would like to trans plant it into my first gen. i know that it couldn't be that hard, so help me out with some of your experiences... any help with your preferences or even mistakes, or even words of advise ( on the car not the wife!) thanks, dayton
11-18-05, 06:00 PM
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Buy a front cover and oil pan from a GSL-SE.. Put it on the 3rd gen 13B-REW and it will almost bolt in.. Next problem is the tranny.. In mine i used a TII tranny with shortened shift linkage, custom X-member and drive shaft.. All bolted in like stock in the end.
Problem is the Flywheel/cluch/pp wont fit in the 1st gen tranny IIRC.
Problem is the Flywheel/cluch/pp wont fit in the 1st gen tranny IIRC.
11-18-05, 07:11 PM
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Use the front cover off the GSL-SE and have it modded to accept the later second gen OMP and or the third gen OMP allowing for the use of the ECU. That is if you have the ECU then you can use it... the next option would be to use a MSEFI system and go for a custom ECU type of setup.
BTW the OMP mod has been done ask Steve!
BTW the OMP mod has been done ask Steve!
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11-18-05, 07:27 PM
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if i use the gsl-se front cover can't i use a mechanical linkage..? it does have four lines as it needs.. can i also use the stock se cross member for mounting??
11-18-05, 07:38 PM
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i would make a custom engine mount, for it, ive made custom engine mounts before, and theyre really not that hard, its just planning,
im not even that great of a welder, i just have one around and know the basics,
if you dont have an ecu i would recomend that you get a standalone efi, and not bother with the stock ecu, i have just ordered my 3rd megasquirt, and theyre great, just hang around the megasquirt forum for a while, and youll see theres other people on the forum ms'ing fd motors,
if you do use a gsl se front cover, get a second gen cas crank angle sensor, its not as accurate as the 3rd gens but it will work,
im not even that great of a welder, i just have one around and know the basics,
if you dont have an ecu i would recomend that you get a standalone efi, and not bother with the stock ecu, i have just ordered my 3rd megasquirt, and theyre great, just hang around the megasquirt forum for a while, and youll see theres other people on the forum ms'ing fd motors,
if you do use a gsl se front cover, get a second gen cas crank angle sensor, its not as accurate as the 3rd gens but it will work,
11-18-05, 07:41 PM
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my 12a has twin weber down draft carbs from rotary performance and big racingbeat header, 82 fly wheel and front mount oil cooler/ radiator conversion... 2.5 pipes all the way back... racingbeat spec 7 spings and tokico blues underneath, and 205 60 13's putting it to the ground!!! i was reading the you know your a rx7 owner if section and i didn't see where anybody else has had to cut the steel belts from around their rear axle with dykes after doing dounts in parking lots late at night... ha ha ha got to love it!
11-18-05, 08:26 PM
#12
FB+FC=F-ME
The FD is quite different than any TII or previous engines.
The CAS is directly fired from the crankshaft,so theres no way to use an SE front cover.
The FD engine uses only 2 OMP lines,and the OMP is electronic so the ECU must see it working,no mechanical pumps will do.
The front cover likely has a different oilpan flange pattern than the SE( Same as with the TII)...so using an SE oilpan is out.
The mounts are quite different with the support being near the rear of the engine.The FB steering box will likely be in the way and without saying,youll have to fab mounts.
Good luck. Im sure its been done,hopefully youll get some info and tips from anyone whos done the swap and not gone with a full standalone ECU/premix/single turbo/ect, change over.
The stock TT FD engine is very torquey and flexible,a joy to drive,but its complexity and difference from the previous TII engines, makes it far more difficult to transplant into the FB in stock guise......
The CAS is directly fired from the crankshaft,so theres no way to use an SE front cover.
The FD engine uses only 2 OMP lines,and the OMP is electronic so the ECU must see it working,no mechanical pumps will do.
The front cover likely has a different oilpan flange pattern than the SE( Same as with the TII)...so using an SE oilpan is out.
The mounts are quite different with the support being near the rear of the engine.The FB steering box will likely be in the way and without saying,youll have to fab mounts.
Good luck. Im sure its been done,hopefully youll get some info and tips from anyone whos done the swap and not gone with a full standalone ECU/premix/single turbo/ect, change over.
The stock TT FD engine is very torquey and flexible,a joy to drive,but its complexity and difference from the previous TII engines, makes it far more difficult to transplant into the FB in stock guise......
11-18-05, 09:52 PM
#13
[QUOTE=steve84GS TII]The FD is quite different than any TII or previous engines.
The CAS is directly fired from the crankshaft,so theres no way to use an SE front cover.
The FD engine uses only 2 OMP lines,and the OMP is electronic so the ECU must see it working,no mechanical pumps will do.
The front cover likely has a different oilpan flange pattern than the SE( Same as with the TII)...so using an SE oilpan is out.
The mounts are quite different with the support being near the rear of the engine.The FB steering box will likely be in the way and without saying,youll have to fab mounts.
QUOTE]
exactly, and when your done you have something that looks like this.
two turbos two rotors and too much fun!
The CAS is directly fired from the crankshaft,so theres no way to use an SE front cover.
The FD engine uses only 2 OMP lines,and the OMP is electronic so the ECU must see it working,no mechanical pumps will do.
The front cover likely has a different oilpan flange pattern than the SE( Same as with the TII)...so using an SE oilpan is out.
The mounts are quite different with the support being near the rear of the engine.The FB steering box will likely be in the way and without saying,youll have to fab mounts.
QUOTE]
exactly, and when your done you have something that looks like this.
two turbos two rotors and too much fun!
Last edited by kevinbtz; 11-18-05 at 09:54 PM.
11-19-05, 12:10 AM
#15
lol when I read this I saw "first gen third gen" and thought "wow.. that would be an odd swap... an N/A 12a into a third gen... now why would anyone want to do that?"
And of course the answer is: I would.... just because it would make people ask questions
good job on the swaps
Eric wants to try this, too. It's always good to get information on the swaps.
Jon
And of course the answer is: I would.... just because it would make people ask questions
good job on the swaps
Eric wants to try this, too. It's always good to get information on the swaps.Jon
11-19-05, 01:22 AM
#17
Kevinbtz, your car is amazing man. You really should make a video at some point, I would lover to hear what that thing sounds like and performs like.
It would also be interesting if you could make a thread about everything you did from start to finish to mount that beast in there. Very impressive!
It would also be interesting if you could make a thread about everything you did from start to finish to mount that beast in there. Very impressive!
11-19-05, 10:12 AM
#20
Originally Posted by Brismo7
and how does this effect the weight balance of the car? with those two turbos, all that turbo ducting and intercooler, must weigh a ton more. it must **** up the weight balance, no? 12a's for life
~Steve
~Steve
and I will try to get more info up later.
11-19-05, 05:49 PM
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is it not possible to weld abracket onto the fornt cover and attach that to the stock 12a engine mount? I have seen this doen with a T2, this would allow you to keep everything, not have to modify anything.
just a thought
just a thought
11-19-05, 06:12 PM
#24
Savanna Rx-7
Originally Posted by Chamele03
is it not possible to weld abracket onto the fornt cover and attach that to the stock 12a engine mount? I have seen this doen with a T2, this would allow you to keep everything, not have to modify anything.
just a thought
just a thought
Same here, I just had them tigg mounts on my front cover so that I could use the 13bt omp on my 12at -> 13bt convertsion I am working on, so I would think that tigging on a cas mount would not be that hard either, might cost a couple of hundred for the machine work, but thats hot rodding.
Kenn
BTW big props to steve84GS TII for the photos he sent me of his welded front cover. I new that it could be done but convinceing the local Japanese shop to do it was much easier with proof!
11-19-05, 08:55 PM
#25
FB+FC=F-ME
Originally Posted by Chamele03
is it not possible to weld abracket onto the fornt cover and attach that to the stock 12a engine mount? I have seen this doen with a T2, this would allow you to keep everything, not have to modify anything.
just a thought
just a thought