Electric Eaton SUPERCHARGER
12-15-03, 11:26 AM
#26
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If any of you has every owned an NOX car, then you KNOW $2500/year is a VERY LITTLE amount to run on NOX. I would be bored to tears if I could only get 2-4 runs per day and spend over $2500/year. At $2.50 or more per run, just do the math. 5-10 per day times 365 is a LOT of $$$
There are no RX7 cars with one. These were just released to the public on Sept 15 of this year, and the ads started Nov 15.
Running a Batcap on my Neon racecar will lower the battery weight to 40 lb (4 X 10lb 800 amp batcaps), and the bank of batcaps will also be used to start the vehicle. So the batteries will be a wash with my car battery, and the ESC I am building for racing is only 32lbg. Aluminum cases on the motors, hollowed out and epoxy filled supercharger rotors, and lightened housing drops a good amount of weight. So what extra weight are we talking here--30lb? I see racers gain that much weight during the holidays :-)
There are no RX7 cars with one. These were just released to the public on Sept 15 of this year, and the ads started Nov 15.
Running a Batcap on my Neon racecar will lower the battery weight to 40 lb (4 X 10lb 800 amp batcaps), and the bank of batcaps will also be used to start the vehicle. So the batteries will be a wash with my car battery, and the ESC I am building for racing is only 32lbg. Aluminum cases on the motors, hollowed out and epoxy filled supercharger rotors, and lightened housing drops a good amount of weight. So what extra weight are we talking here--30lb? I see racers gain that much weight during the holidays :-)
12-15-03, 11:33 AM
#27
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One last point--Turbos were looked at as a poor way of add power, and sound reasoning took decades to change the minds of MOST people. The V8 guys STILL dont like anything but cubic inches and NOX. When you say a turbo is better, explain how? An RX7 has a serious EGT problem when turbocharged, and even the ceramic apex seals dont like a turbo. I do know a bit about turbos and rotaries (one of my my contacts is Carlos Lopez) and I also know the shortcomings of their design. The ESC would be a MUCH better alternative on a stock RX7, and for drag racing the future releases (I have six patent pending designs for the ESC family) will be perfect for racing applications. Imagine getting off the line with 25 psi boost--with cool EGT's on a rotary!!!
12-15-03, 02:22 PM
#29
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Originally posted by atsturbo
Good and fair questions. I have tested the units at 875 amps @ 24V producing 16.5 hp on a dyno.
Good and fair questions. I have tested the units at 875 amps @ 24V producing 16.5 hp on a dyno.
In regard to the above....875A?!? 875A?!? (picure me running around the garage, like Doc Brown yelling "1.21 jigawats?!?"). My god, I don't even want to look at the cable needed. We're talking 00 welding cable here...
go-cart. Had you placed a small ducted fan blowing cool air through the armature you would have never seen overheating.
To verify my hp claims, go to Magnusonproducts.com, open the specification page for the MP62, and plot the airflow and hp required to turn the SC graph. You will realize I am DEAD ON.
We use FOUR batteries--the Optima batteries are OK, but using only two will ruin the batteries internal connection. I have fried three of the red-top units. I now only use and recommend the Odyssey 680 model battery--and four or six are required.
Number one mistake: red tops are NOT deep cycle batteries. They are starting batteries. They were not designed for use like this. No wonder you killed them.
I use Five 175 amp relay/solenoids. Two connecting the two sets of batteries, and three carrying power to the ESC. They are silver contact severe duty units that all EV guys are familiar with. $15 each.
(snip a bunch of stuff...I certainly believe the unit is effective)
I recharge them with my 200 amp shop charger in a few minutes, and go do it again.
Look at what the starter normally has to do--it has to get several hundred ft/lb to develop immediately to get the heavy engine with compression that is cold and does NOT want to turn turning 200-300 rpm so it can start.
And sometimes the car wont start so you try and try again and the battery goes dead.
OK, here's why I am asking these questions. I don't know the weight of a standard supercharger...Let's call it 50 LBS? So we're talking about 4 deep cycle Yellow Tops (let's use the proper batteries) at 40 LBs each (I'll give you the 10 LBs). We'll even consider your supercharger to weigh nothing (filled with helium
). Cable, relays, etc. for 10 LBs. That's 170 LBs. Now, the stock turbo in an FC weighs about 25 LBs, intercooler for another 5 LBs, and I'll even give you 10 LBs for the piping. So we're seeing 40LBs here. I put a complete turbo system on my NA FC (based on the stock turbo), added about 50LBs total to the car, and ran 12s. My question is this: why add all the battery weight, multiple points of failure and wiring when a standard belt-driven supercharger works fine? If you want to control boost, add a small CVT to the mix...
(Edit: What Doc Brown really meant was gigawatt).
12-16-03, 12:22 AM
#31
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The ESC does not want deep cycle--it wants starting batteries. The 675-775 amps needed should not have been a problem when split into two Optimas. They have a 700 CCA rating. That is supposed to be no problem for 10-15 seconds.
I use the Odyssey batteries. They weigh 12lb each--48lb for four. I replaced my regular 40lb battery with one of the 12lb units, and that makes my total battery weight 60lb, or 20 over stock. Also, read the Optima literature as well as the Odyssey. The Optima can take a 100-200 amp charge as can the Odyssey. Standard lead acid cant, but these can.
I run two 2/0 cables from my relay bus bar to the ESC bus bar. We are not running for extended periods, so the cables get warm but dont run long enough to get hot. If they did, I would use three of them.
The ESC weighs 42lb.
I built turbo kits for the last 25 years, and I cant recall a single complete kit weighing less than 80-110 lb when shipped. Some items come off the car and are replaced by turbo designed parts, but even still the weight is similar to the ESC.
I buy 100+ relays at a time, and offer to sell six with each ESC order at my cost. The distributor I deal with does not sell to the public, only jobber and wholesale accounts. These are the same units sold by EV parts guys for $25-$40 each. They just happen to mark them up from the $14 each.
I dont expect you to buy an ESC. But what about the guy who has a car with no turbo or supercharger kit avaiable, does not want to pay $5K for a custom kit, and still wants the extra 100+hp? He now has an option he did not before.
I use the Odyssey batteries. They weigh 12lb each--48lb for four. I replaced my regular 40lb battery with one of the 12lb units, and that makes my total battery weight 60lb, or 20 over stock. Also, read the Optima literature as well as the Odyssey. The Optima can take a 100-200 amp charge as can the Odyssey. Standard lead acid cant, but these can.
I run two 2/0 cables from my relay bus bar to the ESC bus bar. We are not running for extended periods, so the cables get warm but dont run long enough to get hot. If they did, I would use three of them.
The ESC weighs 42lb.
I built turbo kits for the last 25 years, and I cant recall a single complete kit weighing less than 80-110 lb when shipped. Some items come off the car and are replaced by turbo designed parts, but even still the weight is similar to the ESC.
I buy 100+ relays at a time, and offer to sell six with each ESC order at my cost. The distributor I deal with does not sell to the public, only jobber and wholesale accounts. These are the same units sold by EV parts guys for $25-$40 each. They just happen to mark them up from the $14 each.
I dont expect you to buy an ESC. But what about the guy who has a car with no turbo or supercharger kit avaiable, does not want to pay $5K for a custom kit, and still wants the extra 100+hp? He now has an option he did not before.
12-16-03, 12:32 AM
#32
I think the whole idea is great. The Bins on an FB will EASILY hold 4 Odyssey batteries, and any additional wires.
This thing is basically used like a Nitrous shot, without having the bad effects.
I would set it up with a throttle switch, to open only at WOT too.
How would it work on a CARB? Where would you mount it? Would you need a bonnet on it as well (like a turbo?)
This thing is basically used like a Nitrous shot, without having the bad effects.
I would set it up with a throttle switch, to open only at WOT too.
How would it work on a CARB? Where would you mount it? Would you need a bonnet on it as well (like a turbo?)
12-16-03, 06:33 AM
#33
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The OEMs are developing these sort of solutions (saw some very nice CAD drawings recently), but using centrifugal blowers instead, which actually make far more sense for this app I would have thought.
Bill
Bill
12-16-03, 09:35 AM
#34
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If it comes down to a weight issue, I can provide weights on the stock FC turbo components. I ship stuff like that all the time.
Obviously, your solution is designed for intermittant duty (as you have made clear). So it's more of a 1/4 mile thing then a highway-cruiser thing.
Obviously, your solution is designed for intermittant duty (as you have made clear). So it's more of a 1/4 mile thing then a highway-cruiser thing.
12-16-03, 09:56 AM
#35
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Originally posted by Directfreak
How would it work on a CARB? Where would you mount it? Would you need a bonnet on it as well (like a turbo?)
How would it work on a CARB? Where would you mount it? Would you need a bonnet on it as well (like a turbo?)
12-16-03, 11:23 PM
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The delta rise at 5-6 psi is only 40-50 degrees. VERY efficient. If the Eaton is NOT ported, those numbers are a LOT higher.
I have six different patent pending designs, including TWO centrifugal types. The centrifugals take a lot more time to spool up to 45K rpm, and make absolutely no additional power at 8 psi or less. My test design for almost two years was centrifugal. I got frustrated one day after toasting belts, bearings, and having to wait for 3-4 tenths of a second before boost. I had an Eaton GM 62 with a bad nose drive, so I machined the adapter for it and bolted it on. I expected to have more heat, less boost, etc. This was an already ported Eaton, so I saw EXACTLY the same boost, but it came in so fast it was amazing. I then had to add a check valve allowing air to bypass the stationary rotors when the ESC was not activated (not necessary on the centrifugal design).
Next year I am releasing a track-only centrifugal design using three 12hp motors drawing 35KW @ 48-72V. It will be fully programmable with a 800 amp controller, and will use the BatCap 800 batteries with an additional capacitor cell with several hundred farads. It will be VERY EXPENSIVE, but as my Neon will be the first to run it people will see 20 psi boost through an intercooler from a unit that weighs 28lb. The total weight including cables, batteries, etc will be less than 80lb, and will last just over one 10 second run per charge. I will have a battery charger and an extra set of batteries that will drop in between runs. I should easily run in the low 10's as 20 psi on the 420A will be 450-470hp.
If I had a carb-type car, I would get a Paxton carb box, or a bonnet. The box is far better if you can find one. You can modify a carb to be blown-through, but they dont need anything but plastic or closed cell floats when inside a box. You will also need a fuel pressure regulator at a 1:1 ratio so boost is compensated for in the fuel system and float bowl. Very simple and reliable. The rotary would benefit more than most cars with that INSTANT 5-6 psi. Torque under the curve would climb 50-100% making the RX7 much better to drive when boosting. I did many blow-through turbos in my early days, so I could point you in the right direction with that setup.
I have six different patent pending designs, including TWO centrifugal types. The centrifugals take a lot more time to spool up to 45K rpm, and make absolutely no additional power at 8 psi or less. My test design for almost two years was centrifugal. I got frustrated one day after toasting belts, bearings, and having to wait for 3-4 tenths of a second before boost. I had an Eaton GM 62 with a bad nose drive, so I machined the adapter for it and bolted it on. I expected to have more heat, less boost, etc. This was an already ported Eaton, so I saw EXACTLY the same boost, but it came in so fast it was amazing. I then had to add a check valve allowing air to bypass the stationary rotors when the ESC was not activated (not necessary on the centrifugal design).
Next year I am releasing a track-only centrifugal design using three 12hp motors drawing 35KW @ 48-72V. It will be fully programmable with a 800 amp controller, and will use the BatCap 800 batteries with an additional capacitor cell with several hundred farads. It will be VERY EXPENSIVE, but as my Neon will be the first to run it people will see 20 psi boost through an intercooler from a unit that weighs 28lb. The total weight including cables, batteries, etc will be less than 80lb, and will last just over one 10 second run per charge. I will have a battery charger and an extra set of batteries that will drop in between runs. I should easily run in the low 10's as 20 psi on the 420A will be 450-470hp.
If I had a carb-type car, I would get a Paxton carb box, or a bonnet. The box is far better if you can find one. You can modify a carb to be blown-through, but they dont need anything but plastic or closed cell floats when inside a box. You will also need a fuel pressure regulator at a 1:1 ratio so boost is compensated for in the fuel system and float bowl. Very simple and reliable. The rotary would benefit more than most cars with that INSTANT 5-6 psi. Torque under the curve would climb 50-100% making the RX7 much better to drive when boosting. I did many blow-through turbos in my early days, so I could point you in the right direction with that setup.
