did DLIDFIS (jeff20bs way) now coils arc out.
08-16-08, 10:01 PM
#1
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did DLIDFIS (jeff20bs way) now coils arc out.
hello all
I had a long day with my buddy hooking up my DLIDFIS step.useing jeff's 20b's guide. i have a 1980 rx7. iam useing 3 gm igniter's. now the - and + on the coils are arcing out. there trying to go to the center where the plug wire goes.
we used this which is the same as jeff's but shows gm coils.
first we removed the coil's. then the igniter box thats mounted on the strut tower. to do so we removed 2 plugs and the wires that go to the coils.
one plug was this one.pic taken from fsm,
we where also so left with the tack wire, and two black with white strip keyed power wires.
we ran the 2 wires from the bottom row to the igniter for trailing.
the we ran the 2 wires from the top to quick connect. from there it was split off for the leading igniters.
the tack wire is hooked on the trailing coil.
1 white and black wire we have going to the igniters and one to the coils.
the car will run but wount idle i have to keep it above 1k or so.
the + and - bolts arc out . the bolt of lighting(what else to call it) got from the nut to the center of the coil. we tried just running one coil to the dizzy for t/L pulgs and it dodnt stop this.
any one have any idea what we did wrong. what where we spose to do with the plug(coneter) from the dizzy to stock igniter box we didnt do any thing with.
when we started trubble shoot we connect it back to the the igniter box and nothing changed.
if any one can help with this , or at least post a pic of the wires from the igniter box so i can re wire it so i can go to work monday.
I had a long day with my buddy hooking up my DLIDFIS step.useing jeff's 20b's guide. i have a 1980 rx7. iam useing 3 gm igniter's. now the - and + on the coils are arcing out. there trying to go to the center where the plug wire goes.
we used this which is the same as jeff's but shows gm coils.first we removed the coil's. then the igniter box thats mounted on the strut tower. to do so we removed 2 plugs and the wires that go to the coils.
one plug was this one.pic taken from fsm,
we where also so left with the tack wire, and two black with white strip keyed power wires.
we ran the 2 wires from the bottom row to the igniter for trailing.
the we ran the 2 wires from the top to quick connect. from there it was split off for the leading igniters.
the tack wire is hooked on the trailing coil.
1 white and black wire we have going to the igniters and one to the coils.
the car will run but wount idle i have to keep it above 1k or so.
the + and - bolts arc out . the bolt of lighting(what else to call it) got from the nut to the center of the coil. we tried just running one coil to the dizzy for t/L pulgs and it dodnt stop this.
any one have any idea what we did wrong. what where we spose to do with the plug(coneter) from the dizzy to stock igniter box we didnt do any thing with.
when we started trubble shoot we connect it back to the the igniter box and nothing changed.
if any one can help with this , or at least post a pic of the wires from the igniter box so i can re wire it so i can go to work monday.
08-16-08, 10:04 PM
#2
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volt meter and tach works. ony thing we changed from the drawing was one black/white wire goes to the + on the coil. and one goes to the b on the igniter.
08-16-08, 10:37 PM
#3
talking head
try reversing the signal polarity
( i have found the s1 type dizzy seems to prefer opposite polarity )
tip -
disconnect the trailing ignition to prevent cross signal to the timing light
line the dizzy reluctor up to its pickup , button should be pointing at L1
with the reluctor wiring reversed, try and start the car
- i bet it idles with the other polarity
righto, confirm with timing light the reluctor and timing mark are in phase
- then try reconnecting the trailing ignition
check again with a timing light
( i prefer the non inductive timing lights as HEI is noisy enough to false trigger good lights )
be SURE you have separate timing light timing for leading and trailing
be SURE the tailing timing for T1 is not showing you the opposite side of the front pulley
if it is -
then the timing light is picking up the wastespark leading signal
or the trailing igniter is still reversed polarity and firing sympathetically at max dwell overcharge dump
- establish that leading is leading, and trailing is trailing , all separate on the timing light
-it is VERY easy to get the signal polarities wrong , especially the s1 dizzy
( with a radical shift in spark timing and poor dwell control the result )
i have deliberately tried the reverse polarity in my own DFI set up
- it struggles to start with the max dwell dumped timing , and when past 2000 rpm, comes good
( the incorrect rising edge trigger is starting to range its swell to suit the engine )
here is something related that i rambled on about elsewhere
( the BIM024 is the common aussie equivalent of the 4 blade reluctor igniter your using )
( i have found the s1 type dizzy seems to prefer opposite polarity )
tip -
disconnect the trailing ignition to prevent cross signal to the timing light
line the dizzy reluctor up to its pickup , button should be pointing at L1
with the reluctor wiring reversed, try and start the car
- i bet it idles with the other polarity
righto, confirm with timing light the reluctor and timing mark are in phase
- then try reconnecting the trailing ignition
check again with a timing light
( i prefer the non inductive timing lights as HEI is noisy enough to false trigger good lights )
be SURE you have separate timing light timing for leading and trailing
be SURE the tailing timing for T1 is not showing you the opposite side of the front pulley
if it is -
then the timing light is picking up the wastespark leading signal
or the trailing igniter is still reversed polarity and firing sympathetically at max dwell overcharge dump
- establish that leading is leading, and trailing is trailing , all separate on the timing light
-it is VERY easy to get the signal polarities wrong , especially the s1 dizzy
( with a radical shift in spark timing and poor dwell control the result )
i have deliberately tried the reverse polarity in my own DFI set up
- it struggles to start with the max dwell dumped timing , and when past 2000 rpm, comes good
( the incorrect rising edge trigger is starting to range its swell to suit the engine )
here is something related that i rambled on about elsewhere
( the BIM024 is the common aussie equivalent of the 4 blade reluctor igniter your using )
Originally Posted by bumpstart
Info from Bosch, raped from net
the details are not easy to find on the HEC C core coils or BIM024 !
peak primary voltage V rise times typical of a HEC coil
( time needed at that voltage to achieve maximum saturation for peak spark )
10.5 V =3.1 ms
12.0 V =2.6 ms
13.0 V =2.3 ms
13.5 V =2.2 ms
14.0 V =2.1 ms
14.2 V =2.0 ms
16.0 V = 1.7 ms
which brings me to-
http://www.iceignition.com/IGNITION%20BOOSTERS.htm
i want a couple of these me thinks !!
i rate the up volt HEI as a better idea than MSD CDI
( which give up the multispark above 4000 rpm anyways )
the HEI has the energy, and the spark period ( about 1.0 ms ) to just about weld with it
some more important BIM024 considerations when used with reluctor dizzy =
the BIM024 fire the coil on a 0.7 V zero crossing from a positive to negative trigger
( a falling reluctor pulse )
this is important to note, as incorrect phase polarity will shift the timing significantly at low rpm
ie
triggering on the rise will be dependent on the voltage raised
( and that is RPM related in a reluctor system )
so incorrect polarity will not only mean a significant timing shift
( which can be corrected with a timing light )
but also makes for an erratic trigger that moves with rpm at low dizzy speeds
- the HEI BIM024 module ( when its polarity is correct )
is intended to shift timing with decreasing dwell time and rising voltage ( RPM )
this is to maximise the dwell period at higher RPM
( its a angle based dwell system )
getting the signal polarity thing wrong will make for a system that shortens the dwell at higher RPM , and shifts timing forwards
( the original BIM intention is the reverse )
what does that mean??
incorrectly polarised from the reluctor for its trigger signal
the BIM024 will have a timing shift at low RPM that requires the dizzy be reset to relocate the timing to the mark
also the timing point will drift as a result of
1: the air reluctor gap ( the volts generated by the reluctor )
2: also with the input voltage ( cranking )
3 :also the dizzy rpm ! ( irrespective of the centrifugal and vacuum advances )
when revved hard, its spark volts will drop away as the dwell period shortens
and it will increase the timing advance , further limiting its own dwell time !
- hooked correctly, it will be steady at idle, and correct to the dizzy timing alignment dots
and as revved up, it will delay spark about 1 degree every 1000 rpm
( so as to maximise coil charge dwell periods with increasing revs )
allowed for , and tuned for this is a good thing
not allowed for , and hooked in reverse, a bad bad thing
the details are not easy to find on the HEC C core coils or BIM024 !
peak primary voltage V rise times typical of a HEC coil
( time needed at that voltage to achieve maximum saturation for peak spark )
10.5 V =3.1 ms
12.0 V =2.6 ms
13.0 V =2.3 ms
13.5 V =2.2 ms
14.0 V =2.1 ms
14.2 V =2.0 ms
16.0 V = 1.7 ms
which brings me to-
http://www.iceignition.com/IGNITION%20BOOSTERS.htm
i want a couple of these me thinks !!
i rate the up volt HEI as a better idea than MSD CDI
( which give up the multispark above 4000 rpm anyways )
the HEI has the energy, and the spark period ( about 1.0 ms ) to just about weld with it
some more important BIM024 considerations when used with reluctor dizzy =
the BIM024 fire the coil on a 0.7 V zero crossing from a positive to negative trigger
( a falling reluctor pulse )
this is important to note, as incorrect phase polarity will shift the timing significantly at low rpm
ie
triggering on the rise will be dependent on the voltage raised
( and that is RPM related in a reluctor system )
so incorrect polarity will not only mean a significant timing shift
( which can be corrected with a timing light )
but also makes for an erratic trigger that moves with rpm at low dizzy speeds
- the HEI BIM024 module ( when its polarity is correct )
is intended to shift timing with decreasing dwell time and rising voltage ( RPM )
this is to maximise the dwell period at higher RPM
( its a angle based dwell system )
getting the signal polarity thing wrong will make for a system that shortens the dwell at higher RPM , and shifts timing forwards
( the original BIM intention is the reverse )
what does that mean??
incorrectly polarised from the reluctor for its trigger signal
the BIM024 will have a timing shift at low RPM that requires the dizzy be reset to relocate the timing to the mark
also the timing point will drift as a result of
1: the air reluctor gap ( the volts generated by the reluctor )
2: also with the input voltage ( cranking )
3 :also the dizzy rpm ! ( irrespective of the centrifugal and vacuum advances )
when revved hard, its spark volts will drop away as the dwell period shortens
and it will increase the timing advance , further limiting its own dwell time !
- hooked correctly, it will be steady at idle, and correct to the dizzy timing alignment dots
and as revved up, it will delay spark about 1 degree every 1000 rpm
( so as to maximise coil charge dwell periods with increasing revs )
allowed for , and tuned for this is a good thing
not allowed for , and hooked in reverse, a bad bad thing
08-17-08, 12:53 AM
#4
Electricity takes the path of least resistance. If its easier for the voltage to jump the gap than go down the wire, it will. I cleaned my coil "towers" with a little brake clean on a rag before I installed the new wires also. Dielectric grease on the "tower" for the boot is a good idea too. If that doesnt work, replace the coils.
~T.J.
Last edited by RotorMotorDriver; 08-17-08 at 01:21 AM.
08-17-08, 09:13 AM
#5
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bumpstart iam not a wireing type guy, my friend who helped went to uti for this **** and sadly had some where to be today.
iam going to try new wires and Dielectric grease. i dont have the cash for coils right now. 1 is less then a week old and the other 2 where not doing this be for we started.
iam going to try new wires and Dielectric grease. i dont have the cash for coils right now. 1 is less then a week old and the other 2 where not doing this be for we started.
08-17-08, 04:18 PM
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how to with pics 1980 sa(DLIDFIS with gm igniters)
hey guys i figured id help you all out who have a 1980 rx7 or 1980 dizzy and want to convert to DLIDFIS. my buddy helped me out last night and i worked the kinks out to get it right.
we used this for most of the wiring setup.
now the steps. this is for a 1980 sa with the igniter's mounted on the strut tower with the fuse block.(fuse able links)
1st
remove the battery cable (-)
2nd
then remove the wires on the coils and remove them.
remove the coil mounting bracket thats still in the car, your going to re use this.
3rd
now follow the wires coming out of the bottom of the igniter box.
it should end with 2 plugs. one has 6 inputs and 1 has 2. once you discounted
those remove the fuse able links box from the igniter bracket, and let it dangle. then remove the igniter bracket and keep it for down the road just say you want to go back. then you can attach the fuseable link box on the side of the strut tower with one of the stock bolts.
i replaced the wire type links with plastic box typ. this pic shows where i mounted it in a stock hole. its hard to tell in the photo because of the light but the fuse box thing with the links is dead center.
thats the end of what you should have to remove.
you'll be left with 2 black/white wires(keyed power wires from the battery) and one yellowish one which is the tach. and 2 plugs that the igniter box plugged in to.
now for the wiring job.
the bigger plug your left with is where you'll run the green and red wires to the igniters. this is the pic from the fsm.
this pic messed me and my buddy up and cause us real problems which ill get in to. you can use that to know which tabs to use for leading and which to use for trailing.
you can see in this pic i swapped red for green/green for red. this fix the problems i had. if you read my other thread you will know why i did this.
from this point you would wire as the first pic says to. only thing we did different is we wired one of the black/white keyed power wires to the coils on the + side and the other black/white wires to all the b's on the igniters. and the yellow tack wire to the trailing coil - side.
how i mounted my coils.
i cut a plate of aluminum in the shape of a rotor, and cut 3 holes in it to drop the coils in. next i trace the hole patter on a paper to make a template and cut another plate. i can't describe the shape of this plate but the pic will explain. i drilled a hole in both plates, in the center of the 3 coils.
next i bent a a 1.5 x 1/8 x 6 or so inches in the shape of a L. i used the stock igniter bracket to mark the holes in the L shape bracket to mount to the strut tower. then i welded a gusset in the 90 bend to make it stiffer. this bracket holds the rotor shape coil bracket up.the hole i drilled in the center of the rotor shape plates act as the hold down and mounts to the L bracket. it makes it look like the coils and rotor shape bracket are floating. in the pic you can see part of the l shape bracket.
now for the igniters mounting. i removed the stock coil bracket(lower one thats bolted to the car. i laid it on top of the aluminum plate i had and put a center punch thru the bolt hole the was used to tighten the coils down. then i drilled that hole. then all the holes for the igniters.
and this is what i got.
list of parts i had to buy.
1 extra coil
3 gm igniters.
wire and quick connects.
1 bolt to mount the coil holder to the L shape bracket.
and some scrap metal i took from the scarp bin from work.
we used this for most of the wiring setup.
now the steps. this is for a 1980 sa with the igniter's mounted on the strut tower with the fuse block.(fuse able links)
1st
remove the battery cable (-)
2nd
then remove the wires on the coils and remove them.
remove the coil mounting bracket thats still in the car, your going to re use this.
3rd
now follow the wires coming out of the bottom of the igniter box.
it should end with 2 plugs. one has 6 inputs and 1 has 2. once you discounted
those remove the fuse able links box from the igniter bracket, and let it dangle. then remove the igniter bracket and keep it for down the road just say you want to go back. then you can attach the fuseable link box on the side of the strut tower with one of the stock bolts.
i replaced the wire type links with plastic box typ. this pic shows where i mounted it in a stock hole. its hard to tell in the photo because of the light but the fuse box thing with the links is dead center.
thats the end of what you should have to remove.
you'll be left with 2 black/white wires(keyed power wires from the battery) and one yellowish one which is the tach. and 2 plugs that the igniter box plugged in to.
now for the wiring job.
the bigger plug your left with is where you'll run the green and red wires to the igniters. this is the pic from the fsm.
this pic messed me and my buddy up and cause us real problems which ill get in to. you can use that to know which tabs to use for leading and which to use for trailing.
you can see in this pic i swapped red for green/green for red. this fix the problems i had. if you read my other thread you will know why i did this.
from this point you would wire as the first pic says to. only thing we did different is we wired one of the black/white keyed power wires to the coils on the + side and the other black/white wires to all the b's on the igniters. and the yellow tack wire to the trailing coil - side.
how i mounted my coils.
i cut a plate of aluminum in the shape of a rotor, and cut 3 holes in it to drop the coils in. next i trace the hole patter on a paper to make a template and cut another plate. i can't describe the shape of this plate but the pic will explain. i drilled a hole in both plates, in the center of the 3 coils.
next i bent a a 1.5 x 1/8 x 6 or so inches in the shape of a L. i used the stock igniter bracket to mark the holes in the L shape bracket to mount to the strut tower. then i welded a gusset in the 90 bend to make it stiffer. this bracket holds the rotor shape coil bracket up.the hole i drilled in the center of the rotor shape plates act as the hold down and mounts to the L bracket. it makes it look like the coils and rotor shape bracket are floating. in the pic you can see part of the l shape bracket.
now for the igniters mounting. i removed the stock coil bracket(lower one thats bolted to the car. i laid it on top of the aluminum plate i had and put a center punch thru the bolt hole the was used to tighten the coils down. then i drilled that hole. then all the holes for the igniters.
and this is what i got.
list of parts i had to buy.
1 extra coil
3 gm igniters.
wire and quick connects.
1 bolt to mount the coil holder to the L shape bracket.
and some scrap metal i took from the scarp bin from work.
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08-17-08, 05:01 PM
#10
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idles better. starts up easier. seems to want to rev better fast( not sure how to word it)not like it has a whole lot more power seems likes the power is smoother.
um i cant stall the car out with out my foot on the break.ie at a dead stop with it in first if i take my foot off the clutch it will start to pull on its own the tach reads at under 1k. only manual car / truck that i driven that could do that are diesels, and one land rover that was messed super high idle.
not sure how to word it)not like it has a whole lot more power seems likes the power is smoother.um i cant stall the car out with out my foot on the break.ie at a dead stop with it in first if i take my foot off the clutch it will start to pull on its own the tach reads at under 1k. only manual car / truck that i driven that could do that are diesels, and one land rover that was messed super high idle.
08-18-08, 06:16 AM
#13
talking head
good stuff, i always find the DLIDFIS with GM HEI is the way to go
( with new cheap parts )
did you find that your original bug was reversed igniter signal polarity like i mentioned in your other thread ?
-- this seems to catch the s1 dizzy out
as the incorrect rising trigger pulse tends to shift timing badly
or can make the coils fire at wrong timing due to a maximum allowable dwell safety discharge
[ or sometimes build enough current to arc post to post ]
= most of those reluctor igniters prefer a positive to negative falling pulse trigger to operate correctly
is that what your referring to by reversing the wires and debugging it last night ?
are the colours in your new diagram as your car is now
with a type 1 ( OEM remote J105 ) dizzy and your generic reluctor igniters ?
i think it may be important to note that the later dizzy may prefer the other signal polarity
- always check with a timing light to see if you have inadvertent phase shift if doing a DLIDFIS to any car
( see my notes on other thread )
once you have established that, or its easy fix, the DLIDFIS is a winner
( with new cheap parts )
did you find that your original bug was reversed igniter signal polarity like i mentioned in your other thread ?
-- this seems to catch the s1 dizzy out
as the incorrect rising trigger pulse tends to shift timing badly
or can make the coils fire at wrong timing due to a maximum allowable dwell safety discharge
[ or sometimes build enough current to arc post to post ]
= most of those reluctor igniters prefer a positive to negative falling pulse trigger to operate correctly
is that what your referring to by reversing the wires and debugging it last night ?
are the colours in your new diagram as your car is now
with a type 1 ( OEM remote J105 ) dizzy and your generic reluctor igniters ?
i think it may be important to note that the later dizzy may prefer the other signal polarity
- always check with a timing light to see if you have inadvertent phase shift if doing a DLIDFIS to any car
( see my notes on other thread )
once you have established that, or its easy fix, the DLIDFIS is a winner
08-18-08, 06:22 AM
#14
talking head
ima gathering in your other thread you have worked things out
- seems like you had to swap the polarity of red and green triggers to get the igniters to see a falling trigger
good stuff ! good to see you like the result.....
move onto the HEC coils when you get the chance !
- seems like you had to swap the polarity of red and green triggers to get the igniters to see a falling trigger
good stuff ! good to see you like the result.....
move onto the HEC coils when you get the chance !
08-18-08, 08:39 PM
#16
talking head
HEC
= bosch high energy coil
( transformer coil )
normally found as HEC715 on many japanese HEI cars
normally found as HEC 716 on many GM cars with HEI
( at least here in Australia, but i gather they are a popular world wide product )
if you want to know what special about them---
very low primary resistance, and a partly resultant fast coil rise time
just what you need for those 8000 rpm plus revs with full spark when used as wastespark
( thats what your doing with it )
9000 rpm = 6.67 ms between each power stroke
( which has two leading sparks occurring , both approaching TDC and 3.33 ms later at end of power stroke )
- 9000 rpm = 3.333 seconds of time between leading sparks on each coil
you need a fast rise coil to cope with that else your spark dies bigtime !
= bosch high energy coil
( transformer coil )
normally found as HEC715 on many japanese HEI cars
normally found as HEC 716 on many GM cars with HEI
( at least here in Australia, but i gather they are a popular world wide product )
if you want to know what special about them---
very low primary resistance, and a partly resultant fast coil rise time
just what you need for those 8000 rpm plus revs with full spark when used as wastespark
( thats what your doing with it )
9000 rpm = 6.67 ms between each power stroke
( which has two leading sparks occurring , both approaching TDC and 3.33 ms later at end of power stroke )
- 9000 rpm = 3.333 seconds of time between leading sparks on each coil
you need a fast rise coil to cope with that else your spark dies bigtime !
08-19-08, 06:23 AM
#17
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Cool, looks like it would be the same setup then cause mine does have the igniters on the strut tower. I guess when they put the newer engine in they didn't change that.
08-20-08, 03:14 AM
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Would a coil from a 79 work for the third coil? I have access to 3 parts cars, but they are all 79s. I can get any parts I want off of them for free, and free is a very good price, but only if the parts work.
08-20-08, 04:09 PM
#21
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yeah till i find a easy replace ie can go to the local store iam staying with the msd baster 2 coil
if some one wants to do it. id be willing to send my templates (to who ever)for the coil holder and igniter holder.
if some one wants to do it. id be willing to send my templates (to who ever)for the coil holder and igniter holder.
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