cornering suspention setup questions
04-07-09, 09:29 PM
#54
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The respeed R&P kit is a rack and pinion steering system. It replaces the stock gear box with something that works much better. 
So, you won't need a depowered box from another car.
So, you won't need a depowered box from another car.
04-07-09, 09:42 PM
#55
Call a professional. Nothing against the advice here but there are really talented racers and builders that have been there - done that and can help. Charlie Clark for example - 4 time Solo II National Champion, many time Divisional Champion in ITA and E Production in a first gen RX7. www.kcraceware.com
As others have mentioned and a few seconded - buy the Jim Susko book. Well worth what he charges and the help he will give you as a part of the purchase price. For some background on Susko he is an accomplished Soloist (National Champion in a DSP X19) and Roadracer - ITA/IT7 RX7.
As far as the rear suspension goes....setting up a car with heavy springs and or a sway bar to avoid TOO much movement is like slapping a band-aid on a gun shot wound. The fact is that the four link rear suspension that came in our cars has geometry problem that is made worse by decreasing the compliance of the bushing material. Racers like Dave Lemon (www.Mazdatrix.com) that race in classes where the stock suspension is required (Pro 7) use new stock control arms not control arms with urethane bushings. From the Mazdatrix web site:
"We have found that the rear suspension on these cars needs to have soft rubber bushings in order to move properly. Replacing the bushings in these links with urethane or heim joints is not functional. In addition, as the rubber in these stock links ages, it becomes harder. If you are trying to make the car handle consistently, we recommend replacing all four links with new Mazda links.
The other problem area, especially on race cars, is the watts link pivot bracket. The studs welded into the bracket have a tendency to break off. We have developed a bracket that puts the studs in double shear and greatly reduces this type of failure."
Absolutly everything he is stating here is true and Lemon has the Pro 7 racing record to back it up. In fact KC Raceware owner Charlie Clark developed heim joint kits for all four rear links on his first ITA RX7 in the middle 90's - I know beacuse I installed them on his car. The result was a series of broken lower control arms. This was caused by suspension bind. Also - I have seen the watts link pivot failure first hand...This is not BS.
Okay, so what is the cure? A Tri-Link, Pan Hard bar and Hiems in the lower control arms. With a setup like this, guys like Jim Susko and Charlie Clark have won allot of races....me too. Both gforceengineering.net (Susko) and kcraceware.com (Clark) sell tri link kits. KC Raceware has also developed a successful watts link and 4 link setup for their E Production car.
If you don't want to mess with Heims on the street or are in a class where they are not allows then use urethane bushings in the lower arms or better yet call Clark or Susko and ask. Also there is a very successful 1st Gen CSP car called Captain America - I saw this car run at Solo II Nats many times, check out how it was setup http://clemsonscc.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=91703
Finally....and sorry for the looooong rant.....I am not picking on anyone here. I see some well intentioned advice from guys that are trying stuff and competing with some success. The deal is that the names I have dropped in this post are race winners driving cars that are very well prepared. The cool thing is that their knowledge and experience is available to you and it does work. Hell, I am a no-talent driver but with the input from these guys some days I am fast too.
As others have mentioned and a few seconded - buy the Jim Susko book. Well worth what he charges and the help he will give you as a part of the purchase price. For some background on Susko he is an accomplished Soloist (National Champion in a DSP X19) and Roadracer - ITA/IT7 RX7.
As far as the rear suspension goes....setting up a car with heavy springs and or a sway bar to avoid TOO much movement is like slapping a band-aid on a gun shot wound. The fact is that the four link rear suspension that came in our cars has geometry problem that is made worse by decreasing the compliance of the bushing material. Racers like Dave Lemon (www.Mazdatrix.com) that race in classes where the stock suspension is required (Pro 7) use new stock control arms not control arms with urethane bushings. From the Mazdatrix web site:
"We have found that the rear suspension on these cars needs to have soft rubber bushings in order to move properly. Replacing the bushings in these links with urethane or heim joints is not functional. In addition, as the rubber in these stock links ages, it becomes harder. If you are trying to make the car handle consistently, we recommend replacing all four links with new Mazda links.
The other problem area, especially on race cars, is the watts link pivot bracket. The studs welded into the bracket have a tendency to break off. We have developed a bracket that puts the studs in double shear and greatly reduces this type of failure."
Absolutly everything he is stating here is true and Lemon has the Pro 7 racing record to back it up. In fact KC Raceware owner Charlie Clark developed heim joint kits for all four rear links on his first ITA RX7 in the middle 90's - I know beacuse I installed them on his car. The result was a series of broken lower control arms. This was caused by suspension bind. Also - I have seen the watts link pivot failure first hand...This is not BS.
Okay, so what is the cure? A Tri-Link, Pan Hard bar and Hiems in the lower control arms. With a setup like this, guys like Jim Susko and Charlie Clark have won allot of races....me too. Both gforceengineering.net (Susko) and kcraceware.com (Clark) sell tri link kits. KC Raceware has also developed a successful watts link and 4 link setup for their E Production car.
If you don't want to mess with Heims on the street or are in a class where they are not allows then use urethane bushings in the lower arms or better yet call Clark or Susko and ask. Also there is a very successful 1st Gen CSP car called Captain America - I saw this car run at Solo II Nats many times, check out how it was setup http://clemsonscc.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=91703
Finally....and sorry for the looooong rant.....I am not picking on anyone here. I see some well intentioned advice from guys that are trying stuff and competing with some success. The deal is that the names I have dropped in this post are race winners driving cars that are very well prepared. The cool thing is that their knowledge and experience is available to you and it does work. Hell, I am a no-talent driver but with the input from these guys some days I am fast too.
04-08-09, 12:29 AM
#56
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Ok so I went to the respeed website and read the tutorial and studied the R&P stage 2 kit
I now understand that it uses the stock steering column w/o the steering box. It also looks that you replace and mod the collapse pin so that will be fixed and I won't need the depowered box as Kentetsu stated.
Ok, so who's installed this by themselves? I want to know how hard it was to install. It seems pretty strait forward. I'm by no way a expert mechanic, but a novice shade tree would be an appropriate tittle IMHO. How long did it take. I can roll on the bus, or steal the woman's car for a few days, but I can't have it off the road too long. I don't have a garage so I'm not waiting till winter. Plus we don't get snow too often so I'll be driving it through winter also.
I now understand that it uses the stock steering column w/o the steering box. It also looks that you replace and mod the collapse pin so that will be fixed and I won't need the depowered box as Kentetsu stated.
Ok, so who's installed this by themselves? I want to know how hard it was to install. It seems pretty strait forward. I'm by no way a expert mechanic, but a novice shade tree would be an appropriate tittle IMHO. How long did it take. I can roll on the bus, or steal the woman's car for a few days, but I can't have it off the road too long. I don't have a garage so I'm not waiting till winter. Plus we don't get snow too often so I'll be driving it through winter also.
04-08-09, 12:32 AM
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Thanks for the offer but as stated above, doesn't look like I will be needing it. But if your willing to part with the electrical stuff and turn signal assembly I'll probably take that off your hands. Shipping would of been a real pita anyways.
04-08-09, 01:14 AM
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well it only took me a few hours to put the crossmember in, though that was due to the new bushings not fitting correctly. we had to shave them to get them in there. I will be buying the rest of the kit later, but i will tell you that it is by far one of the nicest things i've seen
04-08-09, 02:39 AM
#59
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Call a professional. Nothing against the advice here but there are really talented racers and builders that have been there - done that and can help. Charlie Clark for example - 4 time Solo II National Champion, many time Divisional Champion in ITA and E Production in a first gen RX7. www.kcraceware.com
As others have mentioned and a few seconded - buy the Jim Susko book. Well worth what he charges and the help he will give you as a part of the purchase price. For some background on Susko he is an accomplished Soloist (National Champion in a DSP X19) and Roadracer - ITA/IT7 RX7.
As far as the rear suspension goes....setting up a car with heavy springs and or a sway bar to avoid TOO much movement is like slapping a band-aid on a gun shot wound. The fact is that the four link rear suspension that came in our cars has geometry problem that is made worse by decreasing the compliance of the bushing material. Racers like Dave Lemon (www.Mazdatrix.com) that race in classes where the stock suspension is required (Pro 7) use new stock control arms not control arms with urethane bushings. From the Mazdatrix web site:
"We have found that the rear suspension on these cars needs to have soft rubber bushings in order to move properly. Replacing the bushings in these links with urethane or heim joints is not functional. In addition, as the rubber in these stock links ages, it becomes harder. If you are trying to make the car handle consistently, we recommend replacing all four links with new Mazda links.
The other problem area, especially on race cars, is the watts link pivot bracket. The studs welded into the bracket have a tendency to break off. We have developed a bracket that puts the studs in double shear and greatly reduces this type of failure."
Absolutly everything he is stating here is true and Lemon has the Pro 7 racing record to back it up. In fact KC Raceware owner Charlie Clark developed heim joint kits for all four rear links on his first ITA RX7 in the middle 90's - I know beacuse I installed them on his car. The result was a series of broken lower control arms. This was caused by suspension bind. Also - I have seen the watts link pivot failure first hand...This is not BS.
Okay, so what is the cure? A Tri-Link, Pan Hard bar and Hiems in the lower control arms. With a setup like this, guys like Jim Susko and Charlie Clark have won allot of races....me too. Both gforceengineering.net (Susko) and kcraceware.com (Clark) sell tri link kits. KC Raceware has also developed a successful watts link and 4 link setup for their E Production car.
If you don't want to mess with Heims on the street or are in a class where they are not allows then use urethane bushings in the lower arms or better yet call Clark or Susko and ask. Also there is a very successful 1st Gen CSP car called Captain America - I saw this car run at Solo II Nats many times, check out how it was setup http://clemsonscc.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=91703
Finally....and sorry for the looooong rant.....I am not picking on anyone here. I see some well intentioned advice from guys that are trying stuff and competing with some success. The deal is that the names I have dropped in this post are race winners driving cars that are very well prepared. The cool thing is that their knowledge and experience is available to you and it does work. Hell, I am a no-talent driver but with the input from these guys some days I am fast too.
As others have mentioned and a few seconded - buy the Jim Susko book. Well worth what he charges and the help he will give you as a part of the purchase price. For some background on Susko he is an accomplished Soloist (National Champion in a DSP X19) and Roadracer - ITA/IT7 RX7.
As far as the rear suspension goes....setting up a car with heavy springs and or a sway bar to avoid TOO much movement is like slapping a band-aid on a gun shot wound. The fact is that the four link rear suspension that came in our cars has geometry problem that is made worse by decreasing the compliance of the bushing material. Racers like Dave Lemon (www.Mazdatrix.com) that race in classes where the stock suspension is required (Pro 7) use new stock control arms not control arms with urethane bushings. From the Mazdatrix web site:
"We have found that the rear suspension on these cars needs to have soft rubber bushings in order to move properly. Replacing the bushings in these links with urethane or heim joints is not functional. In addition, as the rubber in these stock links ages, it becomes harder. If you are trying to make the car handle consistently, we recommend replacing all four links with new Mazda links.
The other problem area, especially on race cars, is the watts link pivot bracket. The studs welded into the bracket have a tendency to break off. We have developed a bracket that puts the studs in double shear and greatly reduces this type of failure."
Absolutly everything he is stating here is true and Lemon has the Pro 7 racing record to back it up. In fact KC Raceware owner Charlie Clark developed heim joint kits for all four rear links on his first ITA RX7 in the middle 90's - I know beacuse I installed them on his car. The result was a series of broken lower control arms. This was caused by suspension bind. Also - I have seen the watts link pivot failure first hand...This is not BS.
Okay, so what is the cure? A Tri-Link, Pan Hard bar and Hiems in the lower control arms. With a setup like this, guys like Jim Susko and Charlie Clark have won allot of races....me too. Both gforceengineering.net (Susko) and kcraceware.com (Clark) sell tri link kits. KC Raceware has also developed a successful watts link and 4 link setup for their E Production car.
If you don't want to mess with Heims on the street or are in a class where they are not allows then use urethane bushings in the lower arms or better yet call Clark or Susko and ask. Also there is a very successful 1st Gen CSP car called Captain America - I saw this car run at Solo II Nats many times, check out how it was setup http://clemsonscc.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?p=91703
Finally....and sorry for the looooong rant.....I am not picking on anyone here. I see some well intentioned advice from guys that are trying stuff and competing with some success. The deal is that the names I have dropped in this post are race winners driving cars that are very well prepared. The cool thing is that their knowledge and experience is available to you and it does work. Hell, I am a no-talent driver but with the input from these guys some days I am fast too.
04-08-09, 09:15 AM
#60
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Mustanghammer; once again great info. If you keep going on about the benefits of the tri/pan setup, you're going to make me install mine earlier than I planned just to see what all the fuss is about.
04-08-09, 06:29 PM
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thunkrd, is there a reason you couldn't DD a trilink/panhard? I'm going to dd mine unless theres a reson I can't
04-09-09, 03:05 AM
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ahhh, well from what i've read, it requires quite a bit more maintenance, also it's noisier. if this car was my track car, then definitely i'd put it in, instantly. but my car will be mostly a dd. my car is quite neutral right now, very controllable.
04-09-09, 01:23 PM
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So, since we are discussing setups, here is a rough estimate of the plans for my 85 gsl that I am prepping for CSP auto-x use:
-Get the body straightened out.
-Rebuild the engine, delete all emissions junk, slap on pulleys, Sterling carb and ported manifold, RB header and streetport exhaust, alum flywheel and DF clutch, 2nd gen coil with HEI ignitor.
-Replace brake master/booster, flush lines, braided lines, new calipers, new rotors, Hawk HPP pads.
-Front suspension-Camber plates, poly arm bushings and solid link bushings (Respeed), Respeed bar, Respeed coilovers (375-400 LB), tokicos, strut bar, all new links/joints, new steering box (manual).
-Rear suspension-Revise watts link (lower pivot bolt .75" to help roll center), poly watts bushings, watts pivot brace, no bar, tokicos, respeed coilovers (175-200 LB), drilled upper arm bushings (lessen binding), new lower arms (mine are bent).
That's a rough list, there is probably more such as interior items and the such. The car wills till be street driven, so I was trying to avoid 3 link/panhard.
Jason
-Get the body straightened out.
-Rebuild the engine, delete all emissions junk, slap on pulleys, Sterling carb and ported manifold, RB header and streetport exhaust, alum flywheel and DF clutch, 2nd gen coil with HEI ignitor.
-Replace brake master/booster, flush lines, braided lines, new calipers, new rotors, Hawk HPP pads.
-Front suspension-Camber plates, poly arm bushings and solid link bushings (Respeed), Respeed bar, Respeed coilovers (375-400 LB), tokicos, strut bar, all new links/joints, new steering box (manual).
-Rear suspension-Revise watts link (lower pivot bolt .75" to help roll center), poly watts bushings, watts pivot brace, no bar, tokicos, respeed coilovers (175-200 LB), drilled upper arm bushings (lessen binding), new lower arms (mine are bent).
That's a rough list, there is probably more such as interior items and the such. The car wills till be street driven, so I was trying to avoid 3 link/panhard.
Jason
04-09-09, 01:29 PM
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does anybody know why you couldn't fanoogle some bushings in a panhard/trilink setup in place of the heims?
If you can buy heim joints for normally bushed connections, does it not stand to reason that the reverse is possible?
If you can buy heim joints for normally bushed connections, does it not stand to reason that the reverse is possible?
04-09-09, 01:33 PM
#72
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Jason, just a couple of thoughts:
1. HEI ignitor is not necessary to run the 2nd gen coil (unless there is some other reason you want to use one).
2. Those spring rates are very high for a street driven car. One of my competitors uses springs of that range, and he'll tell you right up front that the car cannot be driven on the streets like that. I have not driven a car with those kinds of spring rates myself, so the only knowledge I have of this is what he has told me (and what I've read from others).
3. Have you tried adjusting your current steering gear box? Mine was horrible until I adjusted it, and now it's just fine. Might be able to save yourself 800 bucks here.
4. If you are running a good front sway bar (like the Respeed) then you will probably want at least the stock rear bar to go with it. Otherwise understeer might be an issue (so don't throw it out with the trash).
5. Solid Link Bushings? Not sure what you mean. Are they CSP legal?
Everything else sounds good to me. I like the idea of improving the Watts linkage....
1. HEI ignitor is not necessary to run the 2nd gen coil (unless there is some other reason you want to use one).
2. Those spring rates are very high for a street driven car. One of my competitors uses springs of that range, and he'll tell you right up front that the car cannot be driven on the streets like that. I have not driven a car with those kinds of spring rates myself, so the only knowledge I have of this is what he has told me (and what I've read from others).
3. Have you tried adjusting your current steering gear box? Mine was horrible until I adjusted it, and now it's just fine. Might be able to save yourself 800 bucks here.
4. If you are running a good front sway bar (like the Respeed) then you will probably want at least the stock rear bar to go with it. Otherwise understeer might be an issue (so don't throw it out with the trash).
5. Solid Link Bushings? Not sure what you mean. Are they CSP legal?
Everything else sounds good to me. I like the idea of improving the Watts linkage....
04-09-09, 01:58 PM
#73
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On the box, I already picked it up new from Mazda comp. Car had a power box, and I removed it, as it is not CSP legal to plug the lines (checked with SCCA).
On the link bushings, I think they are plastic. Respeed sells them. They aren't metal, so should be legal.
On the link bushings, I think they are plastic. Respeed sells them. They aren't metal, so should be legal.
04-09-09, 04:40 PM
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+1 on softer spring rate. I had 275/300 on the lancer. It was street driven, but rough. Long drives would tare my back up. I'm going lighter this time around. bounce is good, body roll is what you wan't limited.
04-09-09, 11:04 PM
#75
Hiem joints do require a little attention and they absolutly will transmitt road shock and vibrations into the car. I run a complete nut and bolt check on my car between every race weekend. Most everything stays tight but the tri-link will loosen up where it mounts to the tunnel. Not "falling off the car loose" but it can usually be tightened up.
The Tri-link in my car is from Susko and it has a single shear mount in the drive shaft tunnel. The KC Raceware Tri-link uses a double shear mount at both ends and I bet this would help it stay tight.
To avoid some of this harshness it may be possible to use a urethane bushing at one end and a Hiem or rod end at the other. For sure this could be done on the panhard bar - I have seen allot of aftermarket kits for Mustangs that are made with urethane instead of rod ends. On the tri-link you may be able to do this where it mounts to the rearend. There is not enough room in the drive shaft tunnel, however.
You could make a urethane "rod end" easily using a stock lower control arm, lower control arm urethane bushing and a Grade 8 1/2" bolt that is about 1.5" long and has fine pitch. Here is how:
1. Take the lower control arm and remove the stock rubber bushings
2. Cut the ends off of the tube so you are left with the cylinders that used to hold the rubber bushings
3. Weld the 1/2 x 20 pitch bolt to the bushing cylinder
4. Install the urethane bushing
Now you have a "rod end" that has a urethane bushing. To finish a panhard rod you will need:
* 1/2 rod end with Left hand thread
* A swedged/threaded tube of the appropriate length that has right and left hand threads
* Right and Left hand thread jam nuts
* Mounts fab'd and welded to your rear end housing
Make sense or is this clear as mud?
You can get the materials I mentioned from circle track speed shops like www.Colemanracing.com, www.speedwaymotors.com, www.daymotorsports.com, etc. BTW - stock car race parts are dirt cheap and believe it or not some of that stuff can be used on a Mazda! Like plumbing parts, suspension pieces, springs, rear shocks, etc.
The Tri-link in my car is from Susko and it has a single shear mount in the drive shaft tunnel. The KC Raceware Tri-link uses a double shear mount at both ends and I bet this would help it stay tight.
To avoid some of this harshness it may be possible to use a urethane bushing at one end and a Hiem or rod end at the other. For sure this could be done on the panhard bar - I have seen allot of aftermarket kits for Mustangs that are made with urethane instead of rod ends. On the tri-link you may be able to do this where it mounts to the rearend. There is not enough room in the drive shaft tunnel, however.
You could make a urethane "rod end" easily using a stock lower control arm, lower control arm urethane bushing and a Grade 8 1/2" bolt that is about 1.5" long and has fine pitch. Here is how:
1. Take the lower control arm and remove the stock rubber bushings
2. Cut the ends off of the tube so you are left with the cylinders that used to hold the rubber bushings
3. Weld the 1/2 x 20 pitch bolt to the bushing cylinder
4. Install the urethane bushing
Now you have a "rod end" that has a urethane bushing. To finish a panhard rod you will need:
* 1/2 rod end with Left hand thread
* A swedged/threaded tube of the appropriate length that has right and left hand threads
* Right and Left hand thread jam nuts
* Mounts fab'd and welded to your rear end housing
Make sense or is this clear as mud?
You can get the materials I mentioned from circle track speed shops like www.Colemanracing.com, www.speedwaymotors.com, www.daymotorsports.com, etc. BTW - stock car race parts are dirt cheap and believe it or not some of that stuff can be used on a Mazda! Like plumbing parts, suspension pieces, springs, rear shocks, etc.