Car running rich after MSD install
10-21-16, 12:41 PM
#1
carb whisperer
Thread Starter
Car running rich after MSD install
So I installed a dual MSD 6al setup about a week ago now, and I'm noticing things about it that seem odd.
First off: moderate boost in torque, although no huge gains at high rpm.
Then: Much higher EGT's than before, and a noticeable increase in heat soak problems, even though it's much cooler out.
Then: Cold and hot starting is harder now, but doesn't require as many pump shots to kick over. It just runs very poorly for the first minute or two, then takes off. It didn't do this with stock ignition.
Finally: Car is running much richer everywhere than originally setup. My carb was adjusted perfectly before the install, but now smells rich, and misses here and there.
Is this normal for 6al? I've never run them before. And at the moment they are firing through the cap.
First off: moderate boost in torque, although no huge gains at high rpm.
Then: Much higher EGT's than before, and a noticeable increase in heat soak problems, even though it's much cooler out.
Then: Cold and hot starting is harder now, but doesn't require as many pump shots to kick over. It just runs very poorly for the first minute or two, then takes off. It didn't do this with stock ignition.
Finally: Car is running much richer everywhere than originally setup. My carb was adjusted perfectly before the install, but now smells rich, and misses here and there.
Is this normal for 6al? I've never run them before. And at the moment they are firing through the cap.
10-21-16, 05:59 PM
#4
carb whisperer
Thread Starter
Wired direct from the wires inside the distributor....
I have no verified timing, but I DID verify the wiring, and my trailing pickup is going to my trailing MSD, then to my trailing coil, and the same for leading.
My old stock ignitors were wired very poorly on some repair in the 90's, so it's possible they were backwards all this time?
I have no verified timing, but I DID verify the wiring, and my trailing pickup is going to my trailing MSD, then to my trailing coil, and the same for leading.
My old stock ignitors were wired very poorly on some repair in the 90's, so it's possible they were backwards all this time?
10-23-16, 12:47 PM
#7
You want my honest opinion? Ok, I'll give it to you. Ahem...
You're doing it wrong.
We've proven time and again how much better direct fire on leading is than anything through the cap. We've also proven that when you run so-called "wasted spark" on a rotary, which isn't really wasted, it actually provides great benefits over the single leading sparks through the cap and rotor (it changes the way the engine sounds when it idles and at higher RPMs so you know it's burning additional fuel). You also have one less gap to jump when you go direct fire as there is no air gap inside a dizzy cap to worry about, not to mention the extra coil to cap wire which is eliminated in the process.
But hold on... what about more powerful or "stronger" sparks available from the MSD? Aren't they of some benefit? Well, you'd think so but let's look at reality for a moment. Your engine is now running richer than before which tells me not as much fuel is burning. That's a significant problem, which goes without saying. This is due to the very short duration CD spark which simply has less time to ignite the fast moving AF mixture as it passes across the spark plug compared with the longer duration kettering sparks of an inductive (ignitor based) ignition system.
But how can this be? I don't know -- I'm not there to look at it. You'd think the MSD would be a spicy meatball. We know peejay swears by them to keep his half or full BP engines from complaining too much. He says the MSD is powerful enough to spark even through fouled plugs which is pretty impressive.
So then why is your setup not behaving the way you wanted it to? Again I don't know. But what I can say is this. My experience with an MSD 6AL on a rotary truck was set up in parallel across two Diamond coils for direct fire. It was so-so performance wise. I blamed other electrical gremlins like low voltage due to part of the ignition switch wires having been cut and replaced by the previous owner, amoung other problems. Then I tried DLIDFIS which ran better, even though it was still a bit electrically underpowered due to the PO's hack job. I still have yet to correct all the wiring and charging issues but as for side by side comparisons, DLIDFIS was better so I sold the MSD.
Armed with this knowledge, I set up other rotary vehicles with DLDIFIS over the years and they all benefited. I've tested other ignition options like 2GCDFIS and some stock cap&rotor setups in other 1st gens, along with a couple of MegaSquirt setups and none of them can touch DLIDFIS (well, the MS could kind of touch it, using the same components, but it's buggy and glitchy as heck as of 2012 when I tested them). At this point I would never run an MSD or anything else on a rotary again. Waste of money. And now that I'm playing with boost and huge hogged out Nikkis, DLIDFIS has proven itself again and again. It's what I recommend for you. I'm sorry you spent the money, but what are you gonna do?
You're doing it wrong.
We've proven time and again how much better direct fire on leading is than anything through the cap. We've also proven that when you run so-called "wasted spark" on a rotary, which isn't really wasted, it actually provides great benefits over the single leading sparks through the cap and rotor (it changes the way the engine sounds when it idles and at higher RPMs so you know it's burning additional fuel). You also have one less gap to jump when you go direct fire as there is no air gap inside a dizzy cap to worry about, not to mention the extra coil to cap wire which is eliminated in the process.
But hold on... what about more powerful or "stronger" sparks available from the MSD? Aren't they of some benefit? Well, you'd think so but let's look at reality for a moment. Your engine is now running richer than before which tells me not as much fuel is burning. That's a significant problem, which goes without saying. This is due to the very short duration CD spark which simply has less time to ignite the fast moving AF mixture as it passes across the spark plug compared with the longer duration kettering sparks of an inductive (ignitor based) ignition system.
But how can this be? I don't know -- I'm not there to look at it. You'd think the MSD would be a spicy meatball. We know peejay swears by them to keep his half or full BP engines from complaining too much. He says the MSD is powerful enough to spark even through fouled plugs which is pretty impressive.
So then why is your setup not behaving the way you wanted it to? Again I don't know. But what I can say is this. My experience with an MSD 6AL on a rotary truck was set up in parallel across two Diamond coils for direct fire. It was so-so performance wise. I blamed other electrical gremlins like low voltage due to part of the ignition switch wires having been cut and replaced by the previous owner, amoung other problems. Then I tried DLIDFIS which ran better, even though it was still a bit electrically underpowered due to the PO's hack job. I still have yet to correct all the wiring and charging issues but as for side by side comparisons, DLIDFIS was better so I sold the MSD.
Armed with this knowledge, I set up other rotary vehicles with DLDIFIS over the years and they all benefited. I've tested other ignition options like 2GCDFIS and some stock cap&rotor setups in other 1st gens, along with a couple of MegaSquirt setups and none of them can touch DLIDFIS (well, the MS could kind of touch it, using the same components, but it's buggy and glitchy as heck as of 2012 when I tested them). At this point I would never run an MSD or anything else on a rotary again. Waste of money. And now that I'm playing with boost and huge hogged out Nikkis, DLIDFIS has proven itself again and again. It's what I recommend for you. I'm sorry you spent the money, but what are you gonna do?
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10-23-16, 05:06 PM
#8
jeff what are your thoughts on direct fire using the msd boxes?
You want my honest opinion? Ok, I'll give it to you. Ahem...
You're doing it wrong.
We've proven time and again how much better direct fire on leading is than anything through the cap. We've also proven that when you run so-called "wasted spark" on a rotary, which isn't really wasted, it actually provides great benefits over the single leading sparks through the cap and rotor (it changes the way the engine sounds when it idles and at higher RPMs so you know it's burning additional fuel). You also have one less gap to jump when you go direct fire as there is no air gap inside a dizzy cap to worry about, not to mention the extra coil to cap wire which is eliminated in the process.
But hold on... what about more powerful or "stronger" sparks available from the MSD? Aren't they of some benefit? Well, you'd think so but let's look at reality for a moment. Your engine is now running richer than before which tells me not as much fuel is burning. That's a significant problem, which goes without saying. This is due to the very short duration CD spark which simply has less time to ignite the fast moving AF mixture as it passes across the spark plug compared with the longer duration kettering sparks of an inductive (ignitor based) ignition system.
But how can this be? I don't know -- I'm not there to look at it. You'd think the MSD would be a spicy meatball. We know peejay swears by them to keep his half or full BP engines from complaining too much. He says the MSD is powerful enough to spark even through fouled plugs which is pretty impressive.
So then why is your setup not behaving the way you wanted it to? Again I don't know. But what I can say is this. My experience with an MSD 6AL on a rotary truck was set up in parallel across two Diamond coils for direct fire. It was so-so performance wise. I blamed other electrical gremlins like low voltage due to part of the ignition switch wires having been cut and replaced by the previous owner, amoung other problems. Then I tried DLIDFIS which ran better, even though it was still a bit electrically underpowered due to the PO's hack job. I still have yet to correct all the wiring and charging issues but as for side by side comparisons, DLIDFIS was better so I sold the MSD.
Armed with this knowledge, I set up other rotary vehicles with DLDIFIS over the years and they all benefited. I've tested other ignition options like 2GCDFIS and some stock cap&rotor setups in other 1st gens, along with a couple of MegaSquirt setups and none of them can touch DLIDFIS (well, the MS could kind of touch it, using the same components, but it's buggy and glitchy as heck as of 2012 when I tested them). At this point I would never run an MSD or anything else on a rotary again. Waste of money. And now that I'm playing with boost and huge hogged out Nikkis, DLIDFIS has proven itself again and again. It's what I recommend for you. I'm sorry you spent the money, but what are you gonna do?
You're doing it wrong.
We've proven time and again how much better direct fire on leading is than anything through the cap. We've also proven that when you run so-called "wasted spark" on a rotary, which isn't really wasted, it actually provides great benefits over the single leading sparks through the cap and rotor (it changes the way the engine sounds when it idles and at higher RPMs so you know it's burning additional fuel). You also have one less gap to jump when you go direct fire as there is no air gap inside a dizzy cap to worry about, not to mention the extra coil to cap wire which is eliminated in the process.
But hold on... what about more powerful or "stronger" sparks available from the MSD? Aren't they of some benefit? Well, you'd think so but let's look at reality for a moment. Your engine is now running richer than before which tells me not as much fuel is burning. That's a significant problem, which goes without saying. This is due to the very short duration CD spark which simply has less time to ignite the fast moving AF mixture as it passes across the spark plug compared with the longer duration kettering sparks of an inductive (ignitor based) ignition system.
But how can this be? I don't know -- I'm not there to look at it. You'd think the MSD would be a spicy meatball. We know peejay swears by them to keep his half or full BP engines from complaining too much. He says the MSD is powerful enough to spark even through fouled plugs which is pretty impressive.
So then why is your setup not behaving the way you wanted it to? Again I don't know. But what I can say is this. My experience with an MSD 6AL on a rotary truck was set up in parallel across two Diamond coils for direct fire. It was so-so performance wise. I blamed other electrical gremlins like low voltage due to part of the ignition switch wires having been cut and replaced by the previous owner, amoung other problems. Then I tried DLIDFIS which ran better, even though it was still a bit electrically underpowered due to the PO's hack job. I still have yet to correct all the wiring and charging issues but as for side by side comparisons, DLIDFIS was better so I sold the MSD.
Armed with this knowledge, I set up other rotary vehicles with DLDIFIS over the years and they all benefited. I've tested other ignition options like 2GCDFIS and some stock cap&rotor setups in other 1st gens, along with a couple of MegaSquirt setups and none of them can touch DLIDFIS (well, the MS could kind of touch it, using the same components, but it's buggy and glitchy as heck as of 2012 when I tested them). At this point I would never run an MSD or anything else on a rotary again. Waste of money. And now that I'm playing with boost and huge hogged out Nikkis, DLIDFIS has proven itself again and again. It's what I recommend for you. I'm sorry you spent the money, but what are you gonna do?
10-23-16, 05:28 PM
#9
Go for it if you want to. I've tried it but DLIDFIS seemed to work better for me. Oh, and you can only do direct fire on leading if you have a dizzy, unless you are willing to go way out of your way to fabricate something to allow for directly fired trailing. It isn't worth doing.
Last edited by Jeff20B; 10-24-16 at 01:57 PM.
10-24-16, 01:54 PM
#10
Wankel=awesome, I wrote more on this topic of igniton but the post ended up with more Nikki content than intended so I decided to give it its own thread to benefit others. Here is the link: https://www.rx7club.com/1st-generati...ikkis-1106724/
By the way, the spark plugs I use are BR8EQ-14. They work better than FC plugs even though you'd think the FC plugs would be better for direct fire. Not necessarily.
I once did a back to back test on a stock 1st gen FB ignition through the cap and rotor, while testing 16 spark plugs; four sets; two sets of FB BR8EQ-14 and two sets of FC plugs. The FB plugs were consistently easier to start. No real surprise there considering the BR8EQ-14 are designed for stock cap and rotor ignition. So then what if you keep using these easier starting plugs with direct fire? Does it make the engine even easier to start? Yes. Oh and one more interesting tidbit was the engine I tested all these plugs on was the half BP 12A I did back in 2011. And it was a fresh rebuild. Talk about a hard engine to start compared to a regular side port that's well broken in.
The point I'm eventually getting to is I think your spark plug choice needs to be reevaluated. I don't even know what a br9eix looks like but I assume it's a motorcycle plug. And yes it might not be compatible with an MSD as what could be happening is the spark could be either blowing through the porcelain, and skipping the gap entirely, or running down through the carbon deposits and skipping the gap entirely, or your gap is too wide (unlikely with an MSD but who knows). I've killed some spark plugs just bench testing them with an MSD, doing what I just described on FB BR8EQ-14 and some FC BUR7 and 9EQ plugs.
Just about the only issue with the BR8EQ-14 plugs with direct fire is you are asking them to spark twice as often at any RPM than they were designed for. The center electrode of the leading plug wears down pretty quickly under normal use, but factor in direct fire and they could wear twice as fast. So a quick temp fix is to rotate your plugs leading to trailing. The trailing ones are very well shrouded so they hardly wear.
Now having said all that, there might be a Messiah spark plug for us. Have you tried the RX-8 plugs yet? I have not, but I've read good things about them. According to j9fd3s, they are easier to spark, and last a lot longer than previous plugs. I think they can handle boost too. Oh and to get the correct temperature range for boost, you need to look to the EU spec RX-8 leading plugs. I think they can be purchased on eBay.
Only gotcha is the RX-8 does not use wasted spark. But I'm willing to risk it considering they are supposed to last longer. Thoughts?
By the way, the spark plugs I use are BR8EQ-14. They work better than FC plugs even though you'd think the FC plugs would be better for direct fire. Not necessarily.
I once did a back to back test on a stock 1st gen FB ignition through the cap and rotor, while testing 16 spark plugs; four sets; two sets of FB BR8EQ-14 and two sets of FC plugs. The FB plugs were consistently easier to start. No real surprise there considering the BR8EQ-14 are designed for stock cap and rotor ignition. So then what if you keep using these easier starting plugs with direct fire? Does it make the engine even easier to start? Yes. Oh and one more interesting tidbit was the engine I tested all these plugs on was the half BP 12A I did back in 2011. And it was a fresh rebuild. Talk about a hard engine to start compared to a regular side port that's well broken in.
The point I'm eventually getting to is I think your spark plug choice needs to be reevaluated. I don't even know what a br9eix looks like but I assume it's a motorcycle plug. And yes it might not be compatible with an MSD as what could be happening is the spark could be either blowing through the porcelain, and skipping the gap entirely, or running down through the carbon deposits and skipping the gap entirely, or your gap is too wide (unlikely with an MSD but who knows). I've killed some spark plugs just bench testing them with an MSD, doing what I just described on FB BR8EQ-14 and some FC BUR7 and 9EQ plugs.
Just about the only issue with the BR8EQ-14 plugs with direct fire is you are asking them to spark twice as often at any RPM than they were designed for. The center electrode of the leading plug wears down pretty quickly under normal use, but factor in direct fire and they could wear twice as fast. So a quick temp fix is to rotate your plugs leading to trailing. The trailing ones are very well shrouded so they hardly wear.
Now having said all that, there might be a Messiah spark plug for us. Have you tried the RX-8 plugs yet? I have not, but I've read good things about them. According to j9fd3s, they are easier to spark, and last a lot longer than previous plugs. I think they can handle boost too. Oh and to get the correct temperature range for boost, you need to look to the EU spec RX-8 leading plugs. I think they can be purchased on eBay.
Only gotcha is the RX-8 does not use wasted spark. But I'm willing to risk it considering they are supposed to last longer. Thoughts?
Last edited by Jeff20B; 10-24-16 at 09:07 PM.
10-27-16, 10:48 AM
#13
carb whisperer
Thread Starter
Verified the timing, and even advanced it a bit and noticed a mild boost.
I really do not like the MSD's. Literally everything I heard that was good about them is the opposite.
Gas mileage has WORSENED (by a lot)
Car smells pig rich
Cold starts are very hard, but it doesnt flood as much?
Hot starts are nearly impossible. Its just 30-40 seconds of cranking and then engine starting and dying until it finally has enough oomf to keep it alive.
High-end power output is unchanged. Car still tops out around 120 MPH in the exact amount of time it did prior to install. Trap speed is LOWER.
This setup ran the best with factory ignitors and black MSD coils. It also makes a lot of noise when jumping the air gap in the distributor. Its a loud pinging coming from the cap, and sounds almost the same as an old plug wire shorting our on a hot manifold/block etc.
I pulled my spark plugs to find wet, black faces with very uneven heat patterns around the porcelain. Literally none of the 4 plugs looked alike.
I didnt spend much on this setup, as I already had the MSD's from another car. I spent a total of 200$ on this setup and that was mostly wire and 40$ for limiter pills.
I grounded these directly to the battery, and ran their major power supply directly from the battery as well.
They function normally, but my bet is that they would perform much better with a stock plug. The GSLSE bur9eq-14 plug is now NLA at local parts chains, so I may look into the Rx8 or FC plugs.
I am extremely unpleased with the level (or lack thereof) of performance the 6AL brings to the table. Maybe it shines in applications such as boost, where the A/F mixture is too rich for the factory ignition? Doubt it though, if it has lesser energy and efficiency than the j109 on a Hogged Nikki.
I guess time will tell. They look cool at least!
I really do not like the MSD's. Literally everything I heard that was good about them is the opposite.
Gas mileage has WORSENED (by a lot)
Car smells pig rich
Cold starts are very hard, but it doesnt flood as much?
Hot starts are nearly impossible. Its just 30-40 seconds of cranking and then engine starting and dying until it finally has enough oomf to keep it alive.
High-end power output is unchanged. Car still tops out around 120 MPH in the exact amount of time it did prior to install. Trap speed is LOWER.
This setup ran the best with factory ignitors and black MSD coils. It also makes a lot of noise when jumping the air gap in the distributor. Its a loud pinging coming from the cap, and sounds almost the same as an old plug wire shorting our on a hot manifold/block etc.
I pulled my spark plugs to find wet, black faces with very uneven heat patterns around the porcelain. Literally none of the 4 plugs looked alike.
I didnt spend much on this setup, as I already had the MSD's from another car. I spent a total of 200$ on this setup and that was mostly wire and 40$ for limiter pills.
I grounded these directly to the battery, and ran their major power supply directly from the battery as well.
They function normally, but my bet is that they would perform much better with a stock plug. The GSLSE bur9eq-14 plug is now NLA at local parts chains, so I may look into the Rx8 or FC plugs.
I am extremely unpleased with the level (or lack thereof) of performance the 6AL brings to the table. Maybe it shines in applications such as boost, where the A/F mixture is too rich for the factory ignition? Doubt it though, if it has lesser energy and efficiency than the j109 on a Hogged Nikki.
I guess time will tell. They look cool at least!
10-27-16, 02:37 PM
#16
10-27-16, 02:41 PM
#17
carb whisperer
Thread Starter
The 6AL won't even fire the car in time if it isnt wired right.
it's simple, 1 lead goes to the pickup, 1 to switched 12v, 1 to constant 12v(battery), 1 to a ground, and finally the -/+ wires for the coils. If any of these weren't correct, it wouldn't run at all
it's simple, 1 lead goes to the pickup, 1 to switched 12v, 1 to constant 12v(battery), 1 to a ground, and finally the -/+ wires for the coils. If any of these weren't correct, it wouldn't run at all
10-27-16, 02:57 PM
#18
It's interesting to see all the MSD support here. But you won't ever hear me say good things about them. I say chuck 'em! Go back to stock ignitors for now and plan on wiring up a DLIDFIS setup next, just to try it. It should work better for you like it always does for me.
10-28-16, 09:18 AM
#22
Rotary Enthusiast
You probably checked this, but, in reading some of the other direct fire threads, it seemed the SA and early FB versus later FB dizzy pickups have different lobe shapes on the reluctors. So it seemed that reversing the "polarity" of the pickup leads had a really beneficial effect.
Tom
10-28-16, 10:31 AM
#23
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i'm late to the party, but here are my thoughts.
1. Rx8 plugs are better. they are the racing plug in a street heat range. they will misfire less AND they take less ignition power doing so. durability is better too.
2. while i'm not a huge fan of the MSD's both PJ and i ran them successfully. the smoke came out of mine. possibly one thing that matters is that we both ran 1 box to both coils, so no timing split.
3. crossfire matters, i wonder if having two MSD's though the cap isn't doing something weird. the factory race setup ran 2 CDI boxes, but they also ran no split.
in summary, i think if its not running right with the MSD's there is a reason. its probably something simple, or a couple of simple things. i would switch to the Rx8 plugs, and i'm thinking two MSD's through the cap is maybe not a great idea
1. Rx8 plugs are better. they are the racing plug in a street heat range. they will misfire less AND they take less ignition power doing so. durability is better too.
2. while i'm not a huge fan of the MSD's both PJ and i ran them successfully. the smoke came out of mine. possibly one thing that matters is that we both ran 1 box to both coils, so no timing split.
3. crossfire matters, i wonder if having two MSD's though the cap isn't doing something weird. the factory race setup ran 2 CDI boxes, but they also ran no split.
in summary, i think if its not running right with the MSD's there is a reason. its probably something simple, or a couple of simple things. i would switch to the Rx8 plugs, and i'm thinking two MSD's through the cap is maybe not a great idea
10-28-16, 12:12 PM
#25
carb whisperer
Thread Starter