Before and After GSL-SE Injectors
Before and After GSL-SE Injectors
12-03-04, 08:24 AM
#7
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Those look just like mine! UPS dropped mine off yesterday. They look good! I was hoping you had already installed them, cuz I have question about the lower seal grommet on the pintle cap. I was a bit confused when I got mine back because when I pulled my injectors I didn't see that seal at all. I go back out to my car and they are still in the block/center section(?) And sure enough they are rock hard and I'm afraid of destroying the Air bleed tubes. Suggestions???
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12-03-04, 08:37 AM
#8
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oh man...bad spot...try a needle nose to take them out CAREFULLY...you don't want anything to fall in...
mine came out just fine so I had no problems...good luck with yours
mine came out just fine so I had no problems...good luck with yours
12-03-04, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RotorMotorDriver
Why did the 100 ML pulsed volume go down after the cleaning on the number one injector? The number one seems to be flowing less in general also. Is that normal for them to not match like that? They sure look nice and clean though!
~T.J.
~T.J.
They shoulda matched the #1 injector to the 2nd one.
12-03-04, 09:10 AM
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It is odd that the flow went down on both static flow tests. Normally it should either stay the same or go up slightly on mildly dirty injectors. The pulsed flow went up as expected. Maybe it's just a paperwork or testing error.
Gordon
WitchHunter Performance
Fuel Injector Cleaning & Flow testing
Gordon
WitchHunter Performance
Fuel Injector Cleaning & Flow testing
12-03-04, 09:46 AM
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if you look at the numbers again you'll notice that the injectors went up in flow or stayed the same...i just got off the phone with him and he explained his process...although it made lots of sense lots of it still went right over my head, i asked him if he could explain it in an email once i send him this forum link...he said he'd be more than happy to as soon as he had some time...more to come...in the mean time here's where the confusion might be happening...
The test numbers don't match...Test 1 on the before is injector resistance...Test 1 on the after matches Test 2 on the before...a quick glance will mislead as it misled me
The test numbers don't match...Test 1 on the before is injector resistance...Test 1 on the after matches Test 2 on the before...a quick glance will mislead as it misled me
12-03-04, 09:51 AM
#12
The test numbers don't match...Test 1 on the before is injector resistance...Test 1 on the after matches Test 2 on the before...a quick glance will mislead as it misled me
~T.J.
Last edited by RotorMotorDriver; 12-03-04 at 09:55 AM.
12-03-04, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by bizarro
oh man...bad spot...try a needle nose to take them out CAREFULLY...you don't want anything to fall in...
mine came out just fine so I had no problems...good luck with yours
mine came out just fine so I had no problems...good luck with yours
When I was trying to remove the seal/grommet from the block, it appeared the seal actually went over a metal piece. Looking at brownmounds pic there is no metal there and looks like the seal goes on top of the injector air bleed socket. Right? Did the factory seal have a thin metal insert maybe? I just don't want to start prying and destroy the sockets.
pic.....
12-03-04, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bizarro
can you take a pic of yours and post it?
I could but don't know how clear it would be. The earlier pic I sent, I'm guessing the air bleed sockets are there. I looked at the socket on mazdatrix (see pic) and can't see any metal past the top of it. Remind you this metal inside my grommet is very thin...like a aluminum can. I'm guessing maybe the factory grommet it was molded inside and the rubber has worn away. Jeezzzz am I making any sense??
12-03-04, 11:35 AM
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i didn't remove mine because of the possibility of breaking it...i just removed the seal between the air bleed and the injector...wasn't hard at all...
12-03-04, 11:52 AM
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I don't want to remove mine either..I think I was paranoid that what I saw was part of the injector socket. I didn't want to screw or damage that. $$$
Hey just a thought....if you have a original grommet out, could you cut it and see if there is any metal under the rubber?? It kinda makes sense in a way. The metal would act like a clamp and keep the grommet tight on the pintle cap.
Thanks
Hey just a thought....if you have a original grommet out, could you cut it and see if there is any metal under the rubber?? It kinda makes sense in a way. The metal would act like a clamp and keep the grommet tight on the pintle cap.
Thanks
12-03-04, 12:24 PM
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mine did not have the metal...your rubber seal is just stuck (if i'm reading you correctly)...just take some small needle nose plyers and pull it out...be really careful that nothing falls down in there...if the air bleeds break then order it...
Last edited by bizarro; 12-03-04 at 12:50 PM.
12-03-04, 12:39 PM
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I don't remember what I needed but I basically went to Mazdatrix and told them I needed all the o-rings and airtubes since I removed the injectors. They gave me all the stuff. Better safe than sorry.
12-03-04, 04:22 PM
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Good afternoon all,
Let me explain what you are looking at and attempt to answer some questions. I know that this data can be confusing at times.
The static flow tests are simply tests in which the injectors are held "wide open". This measures the volume of fuel that can flow through the injectors at a given pressure. In theory, you will never run your injectors in this condition because if the ECU has commanded that high of a pulse width, your injectors don't have enough flow capacity and injectors are needed that will flow more. Again, these tests simply determine the volume of fuel that can flow through the injectors. One test measures the volume over a period of time and the other tests the injectors volume against each other.
In the "before" cleaning "timed" test, these particular injectors flowed 132mL and 137mL respectively. Notice that "after" cleaning, they flowed 136mL and 141mL. No paperwork or testing error is present. There was an increase in their flow volume. Not a decrease.
The injectors are then tested again in a "static measured volume" test. This means the injectors are run static until one or more of the injectors reaches 100mL. This results in an easy to read percentage of flow difference. "Before" cleaning, there was a 4% flow difference between these injectors and "after" cleaning, the difference was reduced to 3%.
Now let's look at the dynamic tests or "pulsed tests". This is when the injectors are pulsed with a given MS pulse and at a given RPM. This simulates the actual condition the injectors run in the engine. This test will check the strength of the solenoid coils and also the return springs inside the injectors both of which can have an effect on the flow of the injectors. The flow benches that I have are the latest designs on the market and are completely programmable. I can program in and vary the pulse widths from 1.0MS to 17.0MS and program the RPM from 100 rpm to 20k rpm. For the tests on these specific injectors I use a 6.0MS pulse and an RPM of 2400. This simulates a light load or "cruise" condition.
"Before" cleaning, during the timed dynamic test, these injectors flowed 86mL and 87mL. There was a 1% flow difference between them during the 100mL volume test. After cleaning, they flowed 90mL and 93mL during the timed test. This also represents an increase in flow in both of the injectors The reason there is a larger percentage of difference during the 100mL volume test is that the #2 injector simply flowed more after it was cleaned. The flow of the injectors didn't get "worse" after cleaning them, only the percentage difference grew larger and that is not uncommon due to manufacturing tolerances.
This brings us to the question of why they weren't made to be "matched". A common misconception is that the flow of an injector can be "adjusted". This is simply not the case. When the injectors are manufactured there is a "manufacturing tolerance" that is allowed just as there is with all manufactured goods. With some of the injector manufacturers, this "tolerance" can be as much as 7 to 10%. Once the injectors are cleaned, they flow what they flow. The flow rate cannot be changed or adjusted other than by raising or lowering the pressure they are tested at.
In order to make a truly "matched" set, you have to start with more injectors than you need. (I have customers that are race teams that do this every season) They will send "batches" of injectors. All of those injectors are flow tested, the flow results are documented and then the injectors are grouped so that the ones that flow the closest to each other are "matched sets".
Many of my regular customers also do the same thing only instead of large "batches" of injectors, they may send only a few extras so that there are "spare injectors" in the event that any are needed to make a set closer in flow.
The data that is presented in the report sent to each customer is in reality only a portion of the total data collected during testing. All injectors are subjected to a variety of "sweep" tests where the injectors are run from an idle rpm of 500 up to as much as 20k and with pulse widths varying from 1.0 up to 17ms. This simulates the entire spectrum that the injectors will actually be operating at and allows me to monitor the spray patterns and flow volumes of the injectors.
I don't send all of the data collected during the testing because it would simply confuse customers more. If however I see anything during those tests that appears to be a problem with an injector, the tests are run again. If the problem persists, I notify the customer and a replacement injector is located.
I'm sorry the numbering of the tests isn't the same on the before and after cleaning data page. I can see how that could create confusion on some peoples part and I'll work on correcting that. My data system creates the data page on my network server as I am testing the injectors. I honestly only look at the live data while performing the tests and not the test number of the data page.
Whew.....explaining that wasn't as simple as I had planned but I hope it helps clears up some of the confusion.
Please feel free to contact me with any questions by emailing me at: rich@cruzinperformance.com or visit my website at: http://www.cruzinperformance.com for more information on the injector servicing procedures.
In 2005 I will be celebrating 30 years in the automotive business and the 15th year of fuel injection service for customers all around the world.
I want to thank the Mazda community for all of your business and wish you all a safe and happy holiday season.
Rich Jensen
Let me explain what you are looking at and attempt to answer some questions. I know that this data can be confusing at times.
The static flow tests are simply tests in which the injectors are held "wide open". This measures the volume of fuel that can flow through the injectors at a given pressure. In theory, you will never run your injectors in this condition because if the ECU has commanded that high of a pulse width, your injectors don't have enough flow capacity and injectors are needed that will flow more. Again, these tests simply determine the volume of fuel that can flow through the injectors. One test measures the volume over a period of time and the other tests the injectors volume against each other.
In the "before" cleaning "timed" test, these particular injectors flowed 132mL and 137mL respectively. Notice that "after" cleaning, they flowed 136mL and 141mL. No paperwork or testing error is present. There was an increase in their flow volume. Not a decrease.
The injectors are then tested again in a "static measured volume" test. This means the injectors are run static until one or more of the injectors reaches 100mL. This results in an easy to read percentage of flow difference. "Before" cleaning, there was a 4% flow difference between these injectors and "after" cleaning, the difference was reduced to 3%.
Now let's look at the dynamic tests or "pulsed tests". This is when the injectors are pulsed with a given MS pulse and at a given RPM. This simulates the actual condition the injectors run in the engine. This test will check the strength of the solenoid coils and also the return springs inside the injectors both of which can have an effect on the flow of the injectors. The flow benches that I have are the latest designs on the market and are completely programmable. I can program in and vary the pulse widths from 1.0MS to 17.0MS and program the RPM from 100 rpm to 20k rpm. For the tests on these specific injectors I use a 6.0MS pulse and an RPM of 2400. This simulates a light load or "cruise" condition.
"Before" cleaning, during the timed dynamic test, these injectors flowed 86mL and 87mL. There was a 1% flow difference between them during the 100mL volume test. After cleaning, they flowed 90mL and 93mL during the timed test. This also represents an increase in flow in both of the injectors The reason there is a larger percentage of difference during the 100mL volume test is that the #2 injector simply flowed more after it was cleaned. The flow of the injectors didn't get "worse" after cleaning them, only the percentage difference grew larger and that is not uncommon due to manufacturing tolerances.
This brings us to the question of why they weren't made to be "matched". A common misconception is that the flow of an injector can be "adjusted". This is simply not the case. When the injectors are manufactured there is a "manufacturing tolerance" that is allowed just as there is with all manufactured goods. With some of the injector manufacturers, this "tolerance" can be as much as 7 to 10%. Once the injectors are cleaned, they flow what they flow. The flow rate cannot be changed or adjusted other than by raising or lowering the pressure they are tested at.
In order to make a truly "matched" set, you have to start with more injectors than you need. (I have customers that are race teams that do this every season) They will send "batches" of injectors. All of those injectors are flow tested, the flow results are documented and then the injectors are grouped so that the ones that flow the closest to each other are "matched sets".
Many of my regular customers also do the same thing only instead of large "batches" of injectors, they may send only a few extras so that there are "spare injectors" in the event that any are needed to make a set closer in flow.
The data that is presented in the report sent to each customer is in reality only a portion of the total data collected during testing. All injectors are subjected to a variety of "sweep" tests where the injectors are run from an idle rpm of 500 up to as much as 20k and with pulse widths varying from 1.0 up to 17ms. This simulates the entire spectrum that the injectors will actually be operating at and allows me to monitor the spray patterns and flow volumes of the injectors.
I don't send all of the data collected during the testing because it would simply confuse customers more. If however I see anything during those tests that appears to be a problem with an injector, the tests are run again. If the problem persists, I notify the customer and a replacement injector is located.
I'm sorry the numbering of the tests isn't the same on the before and after cleaning data page. I can see how that could create confusion on some peoples part and I'll work on correcting that. My data system creates the data page on my network server as I am testing the injectors. I honestly only look at the live data while performing the tests and not the test number of the data page.
Whew.....explaining that wasn't as simple as I had planned but I hope it helps clears up some of the confusion.
Please feel free to contact me with any questions by emailing me at: rich@cruzinperformance.com or visit my website at: http://www.cruzinperformance.com for more information on the injector servicing procedures.
In 2005 I will be celebrating 30 years in the automotive business and the 15th year of fuel injection service for customers all around the world.
I want to thank the Mazda community for all of your business and wish you all a safe and happy holiday season.
Rich Jensen
Last edited by cruzinperformance; 12-03-04 at 04:50 PM.
