The be all end all MMO RANT
10-20-04, 10:53 PM
#26
i wanna add something also. why pre-mix? why go through the hassle. the omp is designed to work on your engine. use it. unless you'r constantly reving over 8k. then i can see pre-mixing. for cleaner engines? show me one that has 60,000 miles on pre-mix and one thats got 60,000 on omp. if the engine is taken care of i'm sure (not posative) that they will be pretty much the same inside.
and for thinner oil will distribute faster. gota call you on that one. when you pre-mix you mix the oil with the gas. i don't care how thick or thin the oil is, if it's mixed with the gas it's going to distribute the same way. with the gas. and since mmo has mineral spirits (aka paint thinner) it's going to bre4ak down faster in you'r gas than regular oil. think on that one. the flash point is 140F. catches fire fast huh. now i haven't did too much research on this, just my common knowledge, but i would love to see the msds on a 2 stroke like castrol or something. but all in all if you like using mmo as pre-mix. go for it.
and for thinner oil will distribute faster. gota call you on that one. when you pre-mix you mix the oil with the gas. i don't care how thick or thin the oil is, if it's mixed with the gas it's going to distribute the same way. with the gas. and since mmo has mineral spirits (aka paint thinner) it's going to bre4ak down faster in you'r gas than regular oil. think on that one. the flash point is 140F. catches fire fast huh. now i haven't did too much research on this, just my common knowledge, but i would love to see the msds on a 2 stroke like castrol or something. but all in all if you like using mmo as pre-mix. go for it.
10-20-04, 11:14 PM
#27
Yes, MMO works for a premix, but the killer is for how long? We have seen rotaries with the stock oil injection get over 200,000 miles. I don't think anyone will dispute that claim. But how long can MMO keep an engine going? Hornbm, I know your engine has about 12,000 on it, but I still say that is a far cry from saying MMO has been sucessful.
Please keep in mind that I am not trying to bash anyone here. I am just bouncing ideas around. I would like nothing more than to prove once and for all that MMO is a force to be reckoned with. I just don't feel like we have done that yet. I'm not going to stop until I have a definite answer on this one. If anything, the research I have arrived at is beginning to scare me becuase I am finding things aren't as they seem. At any rate I would like to continue this discussion with some more ideas I have posted below.
"One of the most important properties of an oil is its Viscosity. This refers to the internal cohesiveness of the oil or its resistance to flow. An oil must be able to flow at low temperatures to lubricate internal moving parts upon starting an engine. An oil must also remain viscous or "thick" enough to protect an engine at high operating temperatures.
Viscosity Index Improvers are additives that extend a multi-grade motor oil’s viscosity range. Viscosity Index (VI) indicates an oil’s viscosity characteristics over a wide temperature range. The less an oil’s viscosity changes with temperature changes, the better the oil protects the engine. An oil that changes little with temperature changes receives a high VI and an oil that changes greatly with temperature changes receives a low VI. Better oils have high VIs.
The VI is measured by comparing the viscosity of the oil at 40°C (104°F) with its viscosity at 100°C (212°F). It does not indicate the performance of an oil at low or high temperatures." - Taken from http://www.oil.made4usa.com/wismoil.cgi
You'll see that better oils have high viscosity indexes. Look at the slopes of the lines I have on the graph of page 1. MMO's viscosity index isn't very impressive at all. It's ability to protect at high heats is almost so low it is off of the chart. It doesn't handle the heat change very well, and as a result has a poor viscosity index compared to conventional oils.
You've got to look at the amount of stress you are putting on components compared with their useful life cycle by giving up that extra viscosity in the oil. You are going to be increasing the friction between engine parts by lowering the viscosity of your lubricant. This in turn will increase engine temperatures and cause more repated stress on your engine components. In engineering this is known as an S-N curve. I have posted a generic one below for our use in this quest for an answer. It is extremely common for parts that undergo repeated loading (like an engine!). (S is for stress, n is for number of cycles.) You'll find that as stress is increased the number of useful life cycles is decreased by the square. It is a parabolic function. So my point is, if you lose some viscosity, stress goes up, life cycles go down. I am hypothesizing that an MMO engine will still last for a long time, just not near as long as an engine with a better lubricant. Maybe you'll get 150,000 miles instead of 200,000. Who's to say? I'm just making educated guesses here. There is also the very good chance that MMO is capable of keeping the stresses in the engine below the endurance limit stress on the SN curve I posted below. In other words, the stresses are so low that the engine can theoretically cycle for eternity without failure. This comes back to the whole idea of how much lubrication is necessary? There is no real substitute for a real life test, which none of us are capable of performing.
I think we have all made some very valid points here, and we may be getting somewhere for once.
I am going to look into contacting an engineer at Mazda to see if I can find out anymore information. Someone has to be able to answer this question for us, it is just a matter of finding them. With the Rx8 coming out someone around there has to know something about rotaries. I just hope they speak english. I'll do some research and see what I can come up with...
Please keep in mind that I am not trying to bash anyone here. I am just bouncing ideas around. I would like nothing more than to prove once and for all that MMO is a force to be reckoned with. I just don't feel like we have done that yet. I'm not going to stop until I have a definite answer on this one. If anything, the research I have arrived at is beginning to scare me becuase I am finding things aren't as they seem. At any rate I would like to continue this discussion with some more ideas I have posted below.
"One of the most important properties of an oil is its Viscosity. This refers to the internal cohesiveness of the oil or its resistance to flow. An oil must be able to flow at low temperatures to lubricate internal moving parts upon starting an engine. An oil must also remain viscous or "thick" enough to protect an engine at high operating temperatures.
Viscosity Index Improvers are additives that extend a multi-grade motor oil’s viscosity range. Viscosity Index (VI) indicates an oil’s viscosity characteristics over a wide temperature range. The less an oil’s viscosity changes with temperature changes, the better the oil protects the engine. An oil that changes little with temperature changes receives a high VI and an oil that changes greatly with temperature changes receives a low VI. Better oils have high VIs.
The VI is measured by comparing the viscosity of the oil at 40°C (104°F) with its viscosity at 100°C (212°F). It does not indicate the performance of an oil at low or high temperatures." - Taken from http://www.oil.made4usa.com/wismoil.cgi
You'll see that better oils have high viscosity indexes. Look at the slopes of the lines I have on the graph of page 1. MMO's viscosity index isn't very impressive at all. It's ability to protect at high heats is almost so low it is off of the chart. It doesn't handle the heat change very well, and as a result has a poor viscosity index compared to conventional oils.
You've got to look at the amount of stress you are putting on components compared with their useful life cycle by giving up that extra viscosity in the oil. You are going to be increasing the friction between engine parts by lowering the viscosity of your lubricant. This in turn will increase engine temperatures and cause more repated stress on your engine components. In engineering this is known as an S-N curve. I have posted a generic one below for our use in this quest for an answer. It is extremely common for parts that undergo repeated loading (like an engine!). (S is for stress, n is for number of cycles.) You'll find that as stress is increased the number of useful life cycles is decreased by the square. It is a parabolic function. So my point is, if you lose some viscosity, stress goes up, life cycles go down. I am hypothesizing that an MMO engine will still last for a long time, just not near as long as an engine with a better lubricant. Maybe you'll get 150,000 miles instead of 200,000. Who's to say? I'm just making educated guesses here. There is also the very good chance that MMO is capable of keeping the stresses in the engine below the endurance limit stress on the SN curve I posted below. In other words, the stresses are so low that the engine can theoretically cycle for eternity without failure. This comes back to the whole idea of how much lubrication is necessary? There is no real substitute for a real life test, which none of us are capable of performing.
I think we have all made some very valid points here, and we may be getting somewhere for once.
I am going to look into contacting an engineer at Mazda to see if I can find out anymore information. Someone has to be able to answer this question for us, it is just a matter of finding them. With the Rx8 coming out someone around there has to know something about rotaries. I just hope they speak english. I'll do some research and see what I can come up with...
Last edited by Glazedham42; 10-20-04 at 11:20 PM.
10-20-04, 11:38 PM
#28
FD > FB > FC
Thread Starter
An interesting point also, is the RX8 has TWO oil injectors per rotor rather than the usual one. I can only guess that just one injector wasnt cutting it.
Again I also suggest that the ammount of MMO could make up for the lack of viscosity. Also another point that I was talkig about with glazedham42 about, was the fact that with the MMO allready premixed it would in effect start the lubrication process sooner, rather than the OMP, only on startup of course"
Think about it thins way, when you start the engine it takes it just a little bit to build oil pressure. During this time the OMP would be nonfuntional, due to the lack of oil pressure available. However the air fuel mixture would allready be in the combustion chamber allowing the lubrication process to work the second you turn the key.
This alone may make the difference between MMO and the stock OMP. However 2 stroke would provide the exact same benefit.
And kettlman, why premix? I really dont want to turn this into a premix vs. omp debate. But premixing allows the lubricant to be much more completely mixed in with the air fuel mixture. Also 2 stroke or MMO burns much cleaner than a 4 stroke oil. A 4 stroke oil will leave carbon deposits over time where as a 2 stroke or MMO will not. Its just a better lubrication system. JUst not as convienent the OMP. I really dont mind premixing, and I love scaring people when they see me dumping red oil into my gas tank.
Again I also suggest that the ammount of MMO could make up for the lack of viscosity. Also another point that I was talkig about with glazedham42 about, was the fact that with the MMO allready premixed it would in effect start the lubrication process sooner, rather than the OMP, only on startup of course"
Think about it thins way, when you start the engine it takes it just a little bit to build oil pressure. During this time the OMP would be nonfuntional, due to the lack of oil pressure available. However the air fuel mixture would allready be in the combustion chamber allowing the lubrication process to work the second you turn the key.
This alone may make the difference between MMO and the stock OMP. However 2 stroke would provide the exact same benefit.
And kettlman, why premix? I really dont want to turn this into a premix vs. omp debate. But premixing allows the lubricant to be much more completely mixed in with the air fuel mixture. Also 2 stroke or MMO burns much cleaner than a 4 stroke oil. A 4 stroke oil will leave carbon deposits over time where as a 2 stroke or MMO will not. Its just a better lubrication system. JUst not as convienent the OMP. I really dont mind premixing, and I love scaring people when they see me dumping red oil into my gas tank.
10-21-04, 12:15 AM
#29
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
any lubrication is better than none, wich one is the best? who knows!! logically, to me the best oil for lubrication would be an oil designed for this specific purpose..... 2 stroke lubricating oil...its designed///formulated to lubricate (in the combustion chamber too!!) when its mixed with fuel!!
as far as premix goes, i would assume the better(most thourghly) you can mix the oil with the fuel the better it would lubricate......
as far as premix goes, i would assume the better(most thourghly) you can mix the oil with the fuel the better it would lubricate......
10-21-04, 12:29 AM
#30
gotta say your point on start up is pretty good, but the omp lines drain into the chambers when off. so as on start up there should be efficiant oil befor the split second that the presure builds up. and for the rx8, the whole exhaust ports are different, hense changing the omp functions.
now back the the thread.......
i looked at a few msds reports on 2 stroke oils. pretty well convincing to me. although i don't know all about the words and symbols they use. i do understand a few of them. like mineral spirits, petroleum spirits,petroleum distilates, solvent refined petroleum oil, chloronated hydrocarbons,napthenic hydrocarbons. well i know petrolium is oil. mineral spirits is paint thinner and pretty flamable. now the hydrocarbons i don't really understand.
dictionary
hydrocarbons "Any of numerous organic compounds, such as benzene and methane, that contain only carbon and hydrogen."
chloronated "To treat or combine with chlorine or a chlorine compound"
naphthinic (adj). "Any of several cycloalkane hydrocarbons having the general formula CnH2n and found in various petroleums."
mineral spirits "a refined distillate of petroleum used as a paint thinner; also called white spirits"
well, that helps me out alot. i lost my train of thought. i see chlorine, mineral spirits( still a hydrocarbon closer to gasoline than lubricating oil) now the naphthenic took me for a loop(no punn intended) what i see there is that the organic atoms are in a ring structure and have no smell? don't understand it at all. but it does do with hydrocarbons so it's not all that bad. probably synthetic stuff. thats what i see in mmo. not that bad.
i'm not going into the others cause i'm tired. but i did notics that i read 3 msds reports on 2 strokes and one has a flash point of 230F, one 460F, and the other 460F. those are much less flamable than the 140F. i don't know if that means anything or not. but if it breaks down too fast and burns away, how does it lubricate?
now back the the thread.......
i looked at a few msds reports on 2 stroke oils. pretty well convincing to me. although i don't know all about the words and symbols they use. i do understand a few of them. like mineral spirits, petroleum spirits,petroleum distilates, solvent refined petroleum oil, chloronated hydrocarbons,napthenic hydrocarbons. well i know petrolium is oil. mineral spirits is paint thinner and pretty flamable. now the hydrocarbons i don't really understand.
dictionary
hydrocarbons "Any of numerous organic compounds, such as benzene and methane, that contain only carbon and hydrogen."
chloronated "To treat or combine with chlorine or a chlorine compound"
naphthinic (adj). "Any of several cycloalkane hydrocarbons having the general formula CnH2n and found in various petroleums."
mineral spirits "a refined distillate of petroleum used as a paint thinner; also called white spirits"
well, that helps me out alot. i lost my train of thought. i see chlorine, mineral spirits( still a hydrocarbon closer to gasoline than lubricating oil) now the naphthenic took me for a loop(no punn intended) what i see there is that the organic atoms are in a ring structure and have no smell? don't understand it at all. but it does do with hydrocarbons so it's not all that bad. probably synthetic stuff. thats what i see in mmo. not that bad.
i'm not going into the others cause i'm tired. but i did notics that i read 3 msds reports on 2 strokes and one has a flash point of 230F, one 460F, and the other 460F. those are much less flamable than the 140F. i don't know if that means anything or not. but if it breaks down too fast and burns away, how does it lubricate?
10-21-04, 03:38 AM
#34
I have one container here of each lubricant in question. I think I'll blend the two together into a third container and use it as my premix bottle.
Let's see here... red and blue make some sort of purple, so I guess its up to me to figure out just how purple it should be. Does that sound like a good idea?
Let's see here... red and blue make some sort of purple, so I guess its up to me to figure out just how purple it should be. Does that sound like a good idea?
10-21-04, 05:34 PM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that jeff20b has the safest idea so far.
I am wondering how fast the mmo get heated up when it is injected. It is used and then burned off very quickly, might it be staying cool (viscous) long enough to protect the engine?
Someone needs to find a mazda engineer and make him/her join the forum to solve the unsolvable mystries...
I am wondering how fast the mmo get heated up when it is injected. It is used and then burned off very quickly, might it be staying cool (viscous) long enough to protect the engine?
Someone needs to find a mazda engineer and make him/her join the forum to solve the unsolvable mystries...
10-21-04, 10:42 PM
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: SC
Posts: 325
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
to me i see the premixing only being good for an FI setup, does the oil 'blend' into the fuel? or just sit on top.? when it reaches the carb float chamber does it seperate there also and float to the top?
and buy the way, if you had to explain to the MMO guy how the rotary uses an oil injections. . and he recommends to use in the rotary? did you ask him wut he uses 100% MMO with. a weedwaker? chainsaw? dumb.
carl.
and buy the way, if you had to explain to the MMO guy how the rotary uses an oil injections. . and he recommends to use in the rotary? did you ask him wut he uses 100% MMO with. a weedwaker? chainsaw? dumb.
carl.
10-24-04, 02:51 PM
#37
Full Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what kind of result might you expect if you used a little MMO as a premix in the gas(for the reasons mentioned earlier on about cleaning the fuel system and helping to lube on start-up), and also used 2-cycle oil in the OMP (with the rotary aviation kit) as it only injects oil at higher rpms, right?
Last edited by sstein77; 10-24-04 at 02:54 PM.
10-25-04, 12:33 AM
#38
Lean Mean Speed Thingie
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Moscow, ID
Posts: 1,102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well didn't the mmo guy you called say that for "warranty" reasons you should just mix some mmo in the 2 stroke....wonder what kind of warranty issues he's referring to there. Is he saying you'll void the warranty of your two stroke engine by not using a two stroke oil...or something to do with mmo's own legal issues?
i agree with kettleman about the stock oil metering system, it obviously does a pretty good job. But i also think 2 stroke is more effective, and much cleaner, so why not use it, its not hard to do. And since its probably more effective to have the premix actually mixed into the fuel before, (the argument for Rotary Aviations adapter) why not run the the oil injection lines into the fuel bowls or something like that, then it would be mixed before it entered the airstream, just an idea i thought of
. To carlrx7, 2 stroke oil is made to mix with gasoline, i doubt it settles at all, and i wouldn't think that mmo settles or floats either, so that wouldn't be a problem.
As for mazda oil injection in the rotor housings, they used one per housing on the fc's, and now two on the renesis, this is where i think you can debate benifits of disabling the omp. The oil injection on the fc blocks made these engines last a lot longer than any other rotary's so far, BUT if you don't have the direct oil injection, premixing makes a lot more sense, it seems to me it would cover more surface area if its mixed in the fuel. I guess all of that is a different debate though.
Now back to the mmo, it sounds like mmo burns a lot easier in our engines, i don't think we want the lubricating oil to burn, its going to eventually, but the more it can resist that, the better, so i don't see mmo beating 2stroke in that category. I think jeff20b is on the right path here though, i think a premix solution of say 75% 2stroke, and 25% mmo sounds like a kick *** compromise. I think i may start using this mix.
i agree with kettleman about the stock oil metering system, it obviously does a pretty good job. But i also think 2 stroke is more effective, and much cleaner, so why not use it, its not hard to do. And since its probably more effective to have the premix actually mixed into the fuel before, (the argument for Rotary Aviations adapter) why not run the the oil injection lines into the fuel bowls or something like that, then it would be mixed before it entered the airstream, just an idea i thought of
. To carlrx7, 2 stroke oil is made to mix with gasoline, i doubt it settles at all, and i wouldn't think that mmo settles or floats either, so that wouldn't be a problem.As for mazda oil injection in the rotor housings, they used one per housing on the fc's, and now two on the renesis, this is where i think you can debate benifits of disabling the omp. The oil injection on the fc blocks made these engines last a lot longer than any other rotary's so far, BUT if you don't have the direct oil injection, premixing makes a lot more sense, it seems to me it would cover more surface area if its mixed in the fuel. I guess all of that is a different debate though.
Now back to the mmo, it sounds like mmo burns a lot easier in our engines, i don't think we want the lubricating oil to burn, its going to eventually, but the more it can resist that, the better, so i don't see mmo beating 2stroke in that category. I think jeff20b is on the right path here though, i think a premix solution of say 75% 2stroke, and 25% mmo sounds like a kick *** compromise. I think i may start using this mix.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
