'79/'84 Ac
#1
'79/'84 Ac
Finished transplanting an entire '84 AC system into my '79 last weekend. New dryer, o-rings (mostly), oil, and R-134A charge.
Worked decently last weekend when I charged it - 54 degrees F outlet temps on the highway at the "vent" setting, 85-90 degree outside temps (Texas.)
earlier this week the compressor clutch started slipping. When I finally received my AC gauges from an eBay purchased today (used my dad's last weekend), I found that the pressures were *way* high. Any AC experts out there who can tell me what might have happened? I have a sneaking suspicion that a piece of trash is clogging the expansion valve, but I'd like to hear other opinions.
I bled off some refrigerant to get the pressures down to a reasonable number, but it's only blowing 60F on recirc, on the highway, with ambients at about 80F. It'll also overheat the car in about 10 minutes if it's not moving now. Idled for over an hour last weekend with the air on...
In a similar vein - does anyone have a manual for the AC? It's not in the FSM, so I assume that it's seperate. If I could borrow it, I'll scan it and post the PDF for the benefit of all, as I've done with the Wiring Diagrams (see sig.)
Worked decently last weekend when I charged it - 54 degrees F outlet temps on the highway at the "vent" setting, 85-90 degree outside temps (Texas.)
earlier this week the compressor clutch started slipping. When I finally received my AC gauges from an eBay purchased today (used my dad's last weekend), I found that the pressures were *way* high. Any AC experts out there who can tell me what might have happened? I have a sneaking suspicion that a piece of trash is clogging the expansion valve, but I'd like to hear other opinions.
I bled off some refrigerant to get the pressures down to a reasonable number, but it's only blowing 60F on recirc, on the highway, with ambients at about 80F. It'll also overheat the car in about 10 minutes if it's not moving now. Idled for over an hour last weekend with the air on...
In a similar vein - does anyone have a manual for the AC? It's not in the FSM, so I assume that it's seperate. If I could borrow it, I'll scan it and post the PDF for the benefit of all, as I've done with the Wiring Diagrams (see sig.)
#3
Airflow is my life
You are supposed to only charge it approx %80 when you do the changeover.
If both the head and suction pressures are high, its not a blockage. Its simply overcharged. I have a generic Haynes AC manual which is somewhat helpful. Dont expect stellar performance with 134.
If both the head and suction pressures are high, its not a blockage. Its simply overcharged. I have a generic Haynes AC manual which is somewhat helpful. Dont expect stellar performance with 134.
#4
Airflow is my life
Search n00b! A quick internet search revealed this gem.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=63922
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=63922
#5
Originally Posted by Rx7carl
You are supposed to only charge it approx %80 when you do the changeover.
If both the head and suction pressures are high, its not a blockage. Its simply overcharged. I have a generic Haynes AC manual which is somewhat helpful. Dont expect stellar performance with 134.
If both the head and suction pressures are high, its not a blockage. Its simply overcharged. I have a generic Haynes AC manual which is somewhat helpful. Dont expect stellar performance with 134.
#6
Airflow is my life
300 psi is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too high. I hope you didnt damage anything. Try letting out more gas to get the pressure back down. 150psi is nominal for R12, cant remember off hand wut 134 should be. Remember, lower suction pressure= lower evap temp.
#7
Airflow is my life
Been doing some research for ya (and the rest of us as this is going to become a bigger and bigger issue as we all will sooner or later face this issue).
Heres some interesting info.
http://freeze-12.com/
http://autorefrigerants.com/freeze12faq.htm
http://autorefrigerants.com/
http://glacier-gold-refrigerants.com/
Heres some real world info on retrofitting. After all this reading I think Im gonnaswitch b4 I roach my compressor.
http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Air/refit.htm
An excerpt
Heres some interesting info.
http://freeze-12.com/
http://autorefrigerants.com/freeze12faq.htm
http://autorefrigerants.com/
http://glacier-gold-refrigerants.com/
Heres some real world info on retrofitting. After all this reading I think Im gonnaswitch b4 I roach my compressor.
http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Air/refit.htm
An excerpt
Both R406A and GHG-X4 (now called "Autofrost", "Chill-it," and other names) are 100 percent legal for use in cars.
As far as using a modern R134a refrigerant (like in a 1995 Neon) with a new dryer, compressor, hoses, etc. here is my experience: You're looking at replacing some components either way, but the switch to R406A is going to require MUCH less expense, MANY fewer new parts, and will yield MUCH better performance and efficiency than R134a. Basically, DO NOT(!) convert your R12 car to R134a or any of the R134a-based refrigerants (FRIGC comes to mind). They are far less efficient than R12 and R406A, GHG-X4, etc. Also, they are HIGHLY incompatible with R12-type oil. They operate at radically different pressures, so calibration of R12 expansion valves won't be optimal. Also, since 134a is so inefficient, one must use larger compressors, condensers, and evaporators to get the same level of cooling as from an R12 system. This is difficult and expensive to do on an existing system, so you get much less cooling with 134a. To convert to 134a PROPERLY so as not to shell any of the components, you're going to need:
a) All new hoses (The R12 hoses are permeable to the smaller R134a molecule)
b) All new seals and O-rings (ditto above)
c) A rebuild of your V2/RV2 compressor (because this compressor design uses an oil sump and pump which cannot be "flushed" of oil like other non-sump type designs, and because 134a is so violently incompatible with 12-type oil, you have to get ALL of the old oil out.)
d) New receiver-dryer with XH7 or XH9 desiccant
e) And you should really purchase a parallel-flow condenser to try and make the system work at least marginally, if not optimally well.
Now let's compare that to using R406a or GHG-X4:
They are MORE efficient than 12, yet it operates at similar pressures, so the expansion valve calibration will remain optimal and your existing condenser and evaporator will function MORE than adequately.
They are completely compatible with R12 type oil, so no system flush or expensive compressor rebuild.
You still need new hoses, because R12 type hoses are permeable to the smaller R406a factions' molecules.
Ditto new seals. (New hose-to-hose and component-to-component seals, you don't have to mess with any compressor or other internal seals).
The choice is crystal clear here, isn't it? Now I have to ask YOU a question: Why are you converting to anything? R12 is still around, you know, and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or ill-informed. There is plenty of it in the US. There is MORE than plenty of it in the US. Some garages will tell you that R134a is the only legal refrigerant. That's wrong. Some will tell you that 134a "moves more heat" than R12. That's also wrong. Some will tell you that no flush, rebuild, or anything else is needed when converting to 134a. That's dangerously wrong. Either use 12, or use 406a, or use GHG-X4.
As far as using a modern R134a refrigerant (like in a 1995 Neon) with a new dryer, compressor, hoses, etc. here is my experience: You're looking at replacing some components either way, but the switch to R406A is going to require MUCH less expense, MANY fewer new parts, and will yield MUCH better performance and efficiency than R134a. Basically, DO NOT(!) convert your R12 car to R134a or any of the R134a-based refrigerants (FRIGC comes to mind). They are far less efficient than R12 and R406A, GHG-X4, etc. Also, they are HIGHLY incompatible with R12-type oil. They operate at radically different pressures, so calibration of R12 expansion valves won't be optimal. Also, since 134a is so inefficient, one must use larger compressors, condensers, and evaporators to get the same level of cooling as from an R12 system. This is difficult and expensive to do on an existing system, so you get much less cooling with 134a. To convert to 134a PROPERLY so as not to shell any of the components, you're going to need:
a) All new hoses (The R12 hoses are permeable to the smaller R134a molecule)
b) All new seals and O-rings (ditto above)
c) A rebuild of your V2/RV2 compressor (because this compressor design uses an oil sump and pump which cannot be "flushed" of oil like other non-sump type designs, and because 134a is so violently incompatible with 12-type oil, you have to get ALL of the old oil out.)
d) New receiver-dryer with XH7 or XH9 desiccant
e) And you should really purchase a parallel-flow condenser to try and make the system work at least marginally, if not optimally well.
Now let's compare that to using R406a or GHG-X4:
They are MORE efficient than 12, yet it operates at similar pressures, so the expansion valve calibration will remain optimal and your existing condenser and evaporator will function MORE than adequately.
They are completely compatible with R12 type oil, so no system flush or expensive compressor rebuild.
You still need new hoses, because R12 type hoses are permeable to the smaller R406a factions' molecules.
Ditto new seals. (New hose-to-hose and component-to-component seals, you don't have to mess with any compressor or other internal seals).
The choice is crystal clear here, isn't it? Now I have to ask YOU a question: Why are you converting to anything? R12 is still around, you know, and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or ill-informed. There is plenty of it in the US. There is MORE than plenty of it in the US. Some garages will tell you that R134a is the only legal refrigerant. That's wrong. Some will tell you that 134a "moves more heat" than R12. That's also wrong. Some will tell you that no flush, rebuild, or anything else is needed when converting to 134a. That's dangerously wrong. Either use 12, or use 406a, or use GHG-X4.
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#8
Originally Posted by Rx7carl
300 psi is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too high. I hope you didnt damage anything. Try letting out more gas to get the pressure back down. 150psi is nominal for R12, cant remember off hand wut 134 should be. Remember, lower suction pressure= lower evap temp.
see: http://www.ackits.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Chart
#9
Originally Posted by Rx7carl
Been doing some research for ya (and the rest of us as this is going to become a bigger and bigger issue as we all will sooner or later face this issue).
Heres some interesting info.
http://freeze-12.com/
http://autorefrigerants.com/freeze12faq.htm
http://autorefrigerants.com/
http://glacier-gold-refrigerants.com/
Heres some real world info on retrofitting. After all this reading I think Im gonnaswitch b4 I roach my compressor.
http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Air/refit.htm
An excerpt
Heres some interesting info.
http://freeze-12.com/
http://autorefrigerants.com/freeze12faq.htm
http://autorefrigerants.com/
http://glacier-gold-refrigerants.com/
Heres some real world info on retrofitting. After all this reading I think Im gonnaswitch b4 I roach my compressor.
http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Air/refit.htm
An excerpt
BTW - it's been determined since refrofits first started that barrier hoses aren't necesarily required for retrofit. Turns out that the R-12 hoses tend to absorb some of the mineral oil over time and use, and that is an effective barrier. If the hoses are replaced, you should of course use barrier hoses.
As far as what to use in the '7, I was already replacing o-rings and dryer since I was moving the system from a buddy's autocross car to my car. No trouble there. My beef with Autofrost is that it's not significantly cheaper than R-12 ($30-40/can) - 134a is $4/can, and available locally. that's a big advantage to me. It was cooling to 54 degrees; that'll do.
Mind you, since it only takes 1 or two pounds to charge the tiny system in the '7, I may switch back to R-12 (is POE oil compatible with R-12?).
The point is that it *was* working fine, then something happened - I'm trying to figure out what happened, and how to fix it. I'm not interested in an argument on refrigerants. I've already done that research, and made my decision.
#10
Airflow is my life
Good info Kev, thanks. I think youll be happier with R-12.
The sudden failure sounds like something came dislodged and glogged the exp valve. I think youll have to reverse flush it.
The sudden failure sounds like something came dislodged and glogged the exp valve. I think youll have to reverse flush it.
#11
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (17)
You are not supposed to flush the expansion valve, you have to remove it in order to flush the evap coil.
POE oil is not compatible with R-12. Mineral or Alkybenzene is needed.
You can get better results with 134a, esp at idle, if you add a pusher fan on the condenser.
R-12 or 134a, don'use blends like Autofrost.
Steve.
POE oil is not compatible with R-12. Mineral or Alkybenzene is needed.
You can get better results with 134a, esp at idle, if you add a pusher fan on the condenser.
R-12 or 134a, don'use blends like Autofrost.
Steve.
#12
Originally Posted by Rx7carl
Good info Kev, thanks. I think youll be happier with R-12.
The sudden failure sounds like something came dislodged and glogged the exp valve. I think youll have to reverse flush it.
The sudden failure sounds like something came dislodged and glogged the exp valve. I think youll have to reverse flush it.
Thanks for your help.
BTW, the link you posted above was pretty handy, too, especially the link there that went to InterDynamic's website ( http://www.id-usa.com/ ). Lots of great info there, too. They're the guys that have all that retrofit and DIY stuff at Autozone and such.
#13
Originally Posted by Stevan
You are not supposed to flush the expansion valve, you have to remove it in order to flush the evap coil.
POE oil is not compatible with R-12. Mineral or Alkybenzene is needed.
You can get better results with 134a, esp at idle, if you add a pusher fan on the condenser.
R-12 or 134a, don'use blends like Autofrost.
Steve.
POE oil is not compatible with R-12. Mineral or Alkybenzene is needed.
You can get better results with 134a, esp at idle, if you add a pusher fan on the condenser.
R-12 or 134a, don'use blends like Autofrost.
Steve.
Just frustrating - it works, then it doesn't
#14
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (17)
Mine did not have a screen, I tried to find one to put in before reassembly, but couldn't.
I did see one that may work after I installed the evap. in the dash though, it was at Pep Boys, in the o-ring selection, it looked like a thimble. You may want to try a little harder than I did finding one since you may have some crud in the system.
Hope you get it fixed, I drove my gas hog truck in May,June,July, til I got the ac in the 7 working.
good luck!
I did see one that may work after I installed the evap. in the dash though, it was at Pep Boys, in the o-ring selection, it looked like a thimble. You may want to try a little harder than I did finding one since you may have some crud in the system.
Hope you get it fixed, I drove my gas hog truck in May,June,July, til I got the ac in the 7 working.
good luck!
#15
Rotary Enthusiast
iTrader: (17)
I was wrong about the R-12 and POE oil, the moderator on the Ackits forum(TRB) says it will work.Sorry.
Frankenrex, I can't understand why, (I am also a noob at AC), if your system is not removing any heat from the inside, how can it make the engine overheat? Are you sure your cooling system working right? I guess if it works with the ac off it must be ok.
Did you try what Brickmason at Ackits said to narrow it down to the exp. valve?
Steve
Frankenrex, I can't understand why, (I am also a noob at AC), if your system is not removing any heat from the inside, how can it make the engine overheat? Are you sure your cooling system working right? I guess if it works with the ac off it must be ok.
Did you try what Brickmason at Ackits said to narrow it down to the exp. valve?
Steve
#16
Originally Posted by Stevan
I was wrong about the R-12 and POE oil, the moderator on the Ackits forum(TRB) says it will work.Sorry.
Frankenrex, I can't understand why, (I am also a noob at AC), if your system is not removing any heat from the inside, how can it make the engine overheat? Are you sure your cooling system working right? I guess if it works with the ac off it must be ok.
Did you try what Brickmason at Ackits said to narrow it down to the exp. valve?
Steve
Frankenrex, I can't understand why, (I am also a noob at AC), if your system is not removing any heat from the inside, how can it make the engine overheat? Are you sure your cooling system working right? I guess if it works with the ac off it must be ok.
Did you try what Brickmason at Ackits said to narrow it down to the exp. valve?
Steve
My cooling system's fine - 3-row short radiator. Fan clutch seems to be working appropriately. Haven't gotten around to modifying an '84 shroud to fit the short radiator yet, but that doesn't seem to have hurt it (have to use the '84 shroud, because I had to use the '84 lower pulley and fan with spacer, and the '84 fan hits the '79 shroud). Temp normally sits at about 1/4-1/3 of the gauge. And it was fine while I was charging and testing it last weekend. Probably idled for an hour with the AC on.... temp edged up a little but stayed there.
#19
What I mean is that any restriction will be a cold spot in the system - there will usually be frost on the outside in that location.
I took a look at everything this afternoon. It was OK, with the pressures a bit low, then they shot up (high enough to pop a joint on one of my gauge hoses (bad crimp on the ferrule, I think.) I'm going to replace the bloody expansion valve and see what happens.
I took a look at everything this afternoon. It was OK, with the pressures a bit low, then they shot up (high enough to pop a joint on one of my gauge hoses (bad crimp on the ferrule, I think.) I'm going to replace the bloody expansion valve and see what happens.
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