mikeric

iTrader: (20)

Huh? This is a road race car. Drag radials are not exactly condusive to taking corners. This is truely a strange and confusing comment especially considering the pictures posted above of the car on a road course... odd.

Anyway, while I'm here a quick update. I brought the car back to Dave at KDR (now Speed 1), to upgrade to 750cc primaries and retune. I also complained about a throttle body manifold leak, the car running too rich, and sever smoke on deacceleration.

Checking it out, the turbo is fine (good), but the engine is showing low compression. This engine was assembled by KDR about 500 miles ago. It was a recently rebuilt used engine when I purchased it. But just to be extra safe, I had Dave disassemble it, check all of the rings, springs, housings, seals, etc. Every thing checked out and the only thing he did was swap in FD corner seals.

The engine installation and tuning was all done at KDR. Dave said that the apex seal springs look like they failed and that only occurs with extreme heat. I have not had ANY heat problems. A possible theory is that if the engine ran too pig rich all that extra gas could have somehow...

Anyway, Dave is pulling the engine and will be figuring out what caused this to happen prior to fixing it as there is no sense in doing this again in 500 miles. Dave is a good guy, a little slow to fininsh the car at times, but he stands behind his work and is the best, most trusted tuner in this area. I know he will make it right.

That being said, I will have to wait to finish the bodywork and paint as it is function over form for me and a pretty non-running car is useless.

Unevolved

iTrader: (1)

Would that be like washing out the rings on a reciprocating engine?

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

Not sure... I have just been informed that the engine is currently out and will be broken down and inspected tomorrow. I will update as soon as I know.

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

Would you believe I completely missed that?

The car looks too streetable (and pretty) to be a full road race car, so I assumed in the pics that it was on some kind of "enthusiast lap" or something. My bad.

But Seriously, did you try race slicks beforehand? (the kind for a road course.)

Unevolved

iTrader: (1)

Those RA1s he's running are R-compounds.

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

NP. To be fair, the car is not a true "road race" car as I'm currently working on my skills in HPDE as I work on my car. The car is streetable, but I do trailer it to events as breakdowns do happen.

Last year I tried running it in full HPDE trim with race tires. I had a hard time keeping up with the Miatas with 140 horses. Since going turbo, it is a completely different beast. A lot of people have been saying that I souldn't go turbo for road racing--buy were they wrong. This thing pulls and is 100x more fun. Nothing like being able to ride a C5 Corvette or a Cobra on the corners and then pass them on the straights. It is nice to be able to take the Miatas out of my rear-view mirror, especially on the straights.

I was on street and race tires before I went to the full T04 setup. On my hybrid turbo setup I could spin my wheels in third. I upgraded my street wheels to the widest thing I could fit under rolled fenders, but I still had traction issues. In addition, I was having aero issues above 100 MPH as the steering would get really light (the disconnected power steering did not help).

I was looking for a front bumper to direct airflow away from under my car and a way to fix my steering. I went with the Re-Speed manual rack and was just going to buy the Mariah front airdam and then I just said "screw it, lets go for broke"

Here are some pre widebody road race pics on Toyo R888 race tires:







Here is my attempt to put the widest tires that I could fit under my fenders. These were high-performance stret tires, but I did use them on the track due to the heavy rain that day:

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

Another quick update. I received this mail from Dave at KDR today:

"...anyway on your motor, have two warped apex seals and 3 flattened apex seal springs...the springs and seals are factory versions...just could not take the heat...no damge internally, motor looks like before, going to replace with upgraded RA superblack apex selas and springs, should have done for next weekend..."

How do factory axpx seals warp and springs flatten? Anyone with more rotary knowledge then me please speak up!

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

heat. either oil temps too high, or egt too high or a combination of both.

since this is the second time its done this, its probably some kind of oil temp/flow issue

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

Second time? This is the first time. When I purchased the TII engine I had dave open it up and go through it. It looked good at the time, but if if was abused before I got it... Anyway, I have every critical thing monitored in the engine. This engine runs cold and rich. I know heat causes them to fail, but I have never had any heat problems. Maybe a flow issue creating hot spots?

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

Now that I think about it though...

While I was on Lightning, my stock oil pressure gauge went to zero and then went back up to normal. It was tike that for about two seconds. I had a loose connector and I thought that was it as my pressure came back immediately and stayed normal. Oil pump failure?

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

Since you are running on a road course, - do you have an oil baffle in place between the engine and oil pan?

Perhaps dry sump might be the way to go for you. (Recommended for road racing anyway)

Unevolved

iTrader: (1)

An oil accumulator can be cheap engine insurance for road racing.

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

This is the email I received from Dave this morning:

"Hey Mike..took some pics for ya...

yesterday morning when I tore down motor I had left front cover on the engine and just pulled the back half...the engine bearings, main and rotors are fine, but after reading your email about no oil for a second or two I went and pulled the front cover to look at tarrington bearings, and low and behold they are destroyed...you can see in pic that oring stayed in place for front cover,

the front of the motor, shaft and front bearings are the last place to get oil, from the opil pump oil comes out of motor directly to oil cooler and back to motor, also runs thru upper oil passages and goes in the back of motor first...and then feeds thru eshaft to front of motor...so to have the tarrington bearings destoyed means it ran out of oil for a short period of time,as there is no other oil damage other than heat on the apex seals and springs...so now we ned to find out why it ran out of oil...as the baffle plate was in, the oil pickup was fine, oil pump looks just fine, oil chain, etc all look ok...was this on a hard long turn???...or a quick turn but consecitive ones...the motor was only out of oil for a short time...otherwise all would have been destoyed...let me know..thanks...dave@KDR"

Here are the pictures he attached:








Here was my reply:

"Dave,

You hit the nail on the head. I noticed the oil pressure issue immediately after a loooong right hand turn on the Lightning know as the light bulb due to its shape (the name should give you an idea of what it looks like). I hated that corner as I could never find the fast way to take it and with the manual rack if you stay on the gas you really have to hold on to the wheel. Now I have a real reason to hate it. I’m not looking at my gauges when cornering, but that corner is followed by the main straight which is where I check my gauges and saw no pressure.

Anyway, how do we fix this so it never happens again? Dry sump is great, but probably out of my price range. I’m read about oil accumulators such as the Accusump or even home-made check valves. Let me know what you think and what other road race guys are running."

Anyone have any experience with accumulators? Dry sump? Comments?

Unevolved

iTrader: (1)

No personal experience with accumulators, just talked to people that run them. Seems to be the cheapest option out there for lubrication improvement. Seems like it's one of those things that if you don't have to think about it, it's doing its job. FWIW, I plan to put one in my car so I don't go through what you're dealing with now.

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

Well, I'm glad I could save you some money .

Years ago, I would get really upset about things like this as I was a broke Airman in the Air Force. With this car purchased and built to be a track car, I tend to roll with the punches. Originally I had purchased an M3 to be a DD and track car, but that was too cost prohibitive. So, I was back to my original love--RX-7s.

Someone once said: "If you are not willing to light your car on fire and walk away from it, you should not be on a race track." Not that I'm planning on burning my car any time soon, but if I walk away after a good weekend with anything less, I consider it a victory!

I'm currently waiting to see what Dave recommends.

Kentetsu

Mike

You might want to check out the race section to see what others are doing to combat this issue, maybe even start a thread there. I'm sure the guys like MustangHammer have already found a good solution to this, so no sense reinventing the wheel.

Sorry to hear that you're having issues, but I admire your attitude. It makes me very happy to know that my Nemesis is in good/capable hands.

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

The first thing I did was a search for a variety of key words and found all sorts of info on oil pan baffles, dry sumps, and accumulators. Different racers swear by different methods. What I have found:

Dry sumps are (obviously) the preferred method and the most costly. A complete system runs about $5,000 or so.

Some racers have had success with custom baffles and flow valves that become one-way under high Gs, trapping oil. This would have to be done by someone that has done it before and I have not found many people caliming that this reliably works.

I found quite a few racers, one with the name SCCAITS, that run Accusump accumulators and have been doing so for years. A new accumulator costs a couple hundred. Add a check valve and the plumbing, and you are probably in the mid $300s.

I want to see what Dave says as he (KDR, now Speed 1) has 3 track cars and build track cars for everyone on the East Coast. Whenever I go up there on a Saturday, there are 2-3 race teams all waiting for his attention and tuning. So, Dave has plenty of experience as an engine builder and used to build Mazda factory race cars and is one of the few Mazda certified Master Rotary Mechanics in the U.S. All that to say that this is not the first time he has seen this or had to deal with it. I'm sure he knows the best solution.

I will see what he recommends but continue to do my own research.

I will be there with a running and painted Nemesis at the next Tail of the Dragon run .

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

you have 2 choices.

dry sump or wet sump.

not sure what you've already done, but with wet sump, you run the baffle plate, and bump the oil pressure. if they still have them mazdacomp used to sell bigger aluminum oil pans, which would help too.

on a piston engine you NEED an accusump, but the rotary doesn't so much.

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

Here are some threads about the Accusump in case someone else also has nothing to do at work on a Friday :

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...light=Accusump
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...light=Accusump
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...light=Accusump
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...light=Accusump
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...light=Accusump
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...light=Accusump

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

Obviously, there are only two choices for four-stroke engine lubrication.

I'm running a baffle plate--which is for de-frothing the oil, it does very little or nothing to stop it from sloshing up. A deeper pan will help me carry more oil, but will not help on prolonged high-g turns on race tires.

How can you make the statement that an Accusump is needed on a piston engine and not a rotary? What is that statement based on? It is quite clear that something has to be done to keep the oil where it is needed and a Accusump is one of the more cost-friendly options and would increase oil capacity by 3 quarts vs. a deeper pan which is only one quart.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

maybe that was an incomplete statement. we've been roadracing since 2003. we're in northern CA, so we run infineon and thunderhill, primarily.

in all that time i've never seen accsump on a rotary.

it's almost a necessity in a piston engine though. our honda would die (faster) without it. the BMW's are trouble too, the engine's mounted at an angle, so; i think its right turns; the oil just runs up into the valve cover...

we really don't have any long high speed turns though...

the accusump is a little bit of a PITA (you have to turn it on and off, etc etc) but it does work, and its simple to plumb, maybe you should just do it?

flight_of_pain

Some of the early rotary racecars i have seen use a separate line tapped into the front iron to oil the front e-shaft bearing. These were all dry sump cars, but worth considering.

Directfreak

iTrader: (2)

Moroso Oil Pans.



Engine Application: 13B Rotary
Fits: Tube chassis cars and other cars without a cross-member located under engine (check dimensions for clearance)

• Fully fabricated
• 3/8"-thick billet rail with integral X-brace greatly strengthens engine assembly to reduce twisting and axial deflection
• Includes .080"-thick aluminum Baffle Plate to de-aerate and cool return oil (other baffles are only .060" thick)
• Includes an oil pump pickup specially designed for this pan; access holes in pan facilitate mounting pickup to the front cover
• Includes magnetic drain plug with extra copper washer and pan mounting kit with hex-drive steel studs to eliminate stripping the engine block and serrated-face flare nuts to withstand vibration
• Accommodates stock pan gasket and dipstick with existing oil level marks -----------------------------

Engine Application: 13B Rotary
Fits: RX-3 & RX-4 models; several rotary engine conversions including 1981-84 Toyota Starlet, 1964-83 Toyota Corolla, 1971-73 Datsun 1200 & others with little or no cross-member modifications; also tube chassis cars

• Rugged 3/8" thick billet aluminum gasket rail with integral cross-brace serves as a girdle to greatly strengthen the entire engine assembly and reduce flexing under hard driving
• Fully fabricated
• Dual trap door baffles
• Enlarged sump increases capacity to 6-1/4 quarts (with stock oil cooler installed) while adding only a quarter-inch in depth to provide ample ground clearance
• Includes oil temperature sender provisions
• Includes magnetic drain plug with extra copper washer, pan mounting kit with hex-drive steel studs to eliminate stripping the engine block and serrated-face flare nuts to withstand vibration
• Accommodates stock pan gasket and dipstick (with modification)

I remember Crispeed would do that modification to his full-on RACE cars as well, for that specific reason too. Even the non dry-sump ones.

mikeric

iTrader: (20)

Those look awesome. Do you know who sells them?

Bobbo

iTrader: (4)

i'm gonna go out on a limb and say moroso...... that's what the oil pan and title state (not to mention the link......) i'm just messin' with ya lol.... if not me, it would have been someone else!!!!!

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/catego...?catcode=10940

nice build!!!