Well for those of you who don't know i've been getting on this whole time attack thing. First time i went out had a few issues and didn't get quite the times that I had hoped for. Needless to say my time on the track was 1:43.46. After finding a somewhat of good spot for my tire pressure, adding the Respeed front sway bar, putting my stock swaybar back on, and upgrading to hawk pads, I've managed to bring it down to 1:37.5 the one thing I still need to fine tune is the Megasquirt, its not as smooth of a transition as I'd like, and I would also like to be able to accelerate a little quicker so I'm starting to play around with my timing and taking things a little more seriously. Average times there seems to be around the 1:30 mark, If i can come down another 7 seconds i know its alot but that would bring me down with the s2000 pack But that I think will definatly need so better/wider tires. I'm only running 195 flaken 912's. Decent tire but not for any real kind of competition. I'm going to try to make it down to the september 7th time attack and hopefully by then I'll have the ECU tuned a bit better.

Anyways I'm basically starting up this thread for any suggestions and to report back on what seems to work and what does. Like i know that Respeed bar works beautifully. One thing i'll have done before next time though is rise up the end links to get a bit more resistance on there and see if it likes it better. I wish i had more track time last time too but that rainy day and blown Borla kinda ruined things.

PS: Lap time can be found here: http://cscs.ca/

Like I said i'm not the fastest of the bunch and don't really expect to be anytime yet but its to show what can be done with just NA rotary for now ... till i get my Rotrex supercharger and custom wheels next year.

 

Nice to see 1st gens other than spec7/pro7 running at tracks

 

Thanks ... Its definatly pretty fun. Its nice to be running close to car that cost over twice the price of your car lol. Also another thing that still needs to go on there is the front sturt bar hopefully, that should make things a but more rigid in the front end also.

 

i bet your car can do 1:30's, takes a bit of work, mostly on the driver to do.

its really hard to tune the ecu to have good response on the track, that was like the 1st thing we learned with the haltechs. ran great on the dyno though....

the thing that'll really point you in the right direction is some data/instrumentation.

it really does help to be able to quantify things.

most important tool is the tire temp probe, its like the wideband o2 for the suspension.

and also dont be afraid to make the driver better, that'll drop your laptimes more than anything else

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html

 

Pretty much everything that Respeed makes has made an improvement on my car. The swaybar rocks, and the coilovers make a real difference by allowing you to set the rideheight you want. By lowering the car, I've pretty much eliminated body roll on even the tightest turns and weight transfer happens instantly. This means that you can make very fast steering inputs, and the car keeps up just fine.

I was watching some of my videos looking at the fender to tire clearance. There's not much room there to begin with when the racing rubber is on, but in the turns that gap doesn't get any smaller at all. I'm very happy with the setup.

I don't know if you've looked into the Transistor Trick ignition system, but that really boosts the power. It's just incredible, the amount of power you can get from that mod.

I've also got an ISC Racing rear swaybar, with three points of adjustment. They don't make them anymore, but hopefully Billy will pick those up and start making them. I run mine on the stiffest setup to help reduce understeer.

But, like was mentioned before, the most important item on the car that you can improve is the driver. Read some good books, and get all the practice you can. But don't forget to have a good time either!



.

 

Thanks for the read ... I'll definatly go over that later on tonight or tomorrow afternoon. Where would you go on about getting one of tire temps? If they're not too expensive. I'm thinking about getting my car tuned by Steve Kan. I know its lacking quite a bit in the top end and that would help me on the couple of long stretches. The first time I went on I was doing about 130 maybe 140km/h, but last time I went out I've been reaching about 150 even saw a 155 once, so I think that i mostly due to the ECU tune as I retuned it a bit. But if I can start hitting about 160 consistently on the long strechaway, and maybe gain another 10km/h one the second strech from there that should drop me by a couple of seconds alone I recon.

I going to try to stiffen up the stock rear sway bar. What i'll be doing is grabbing those end links and that tube that slides inbetween the 2 sets of bushings i'll shorten that a bit to give me a bit stiffer sway. The cheap way

But ya if i decide to get the tune done I might not go to the sept 7th session to save money for the tune but i'll make it to the october session ... last of the season.

 

Here you go:

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/category/Pyrometers
or
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...10791_-1_10013


I agree. Also Unless you have a high quality air pressure gauge and a pyrometer you will not be able to make consistent changes.

First the pressure gauge: a cheap gauge can give you differing readings each time. You need an accurate gauge that gives you accurate and consistent readings. It is just like a fuel pressure gauge during tuning carb cars.

Pyrometer: There are so many brands and styles to choose from. I like the ones with a probe that you touch on the tire, but that is just me. Many use the infrared style. I would suggest if you do get a Infrared style make sure it has a laser so you know where you are pointing it.


The idea is to use the pyrometer to measure 3 spots on the tire. It helps if you can have someone do this for you so you can get quicker readings when you exit the track. The 3 spots are inside, middle and outside. These spots will tell you more or less pressure and more or less camber.

You need to set a standard for yourself and anyone who may help you. When you take measurements always start with the same spot, inside or outside. Always write the numbers down on a pad. Always write the numbers the same: ex.
LF119/125/130. 119 is the outside of the tire and 130 is the inside. and LF is left front. At a quick glance this tells me the left front needs less camber. LF120/130/120 shows you need less tire pressure.

There are some who feel you want the outside temp a bit higher since the trip into the pits from the track will be at a reduced speed and without body roll and tire loading. I have always had good luck with quick cool down laps and someone else taking the measurements as soon as I pull in - setting the temps the same all the way across the tire. It is good practice to give up your last hot lap in a practice session to get a good accurate reading. Reason is that once the flag is shown in a session most will slow down for a cool down lap. You do not want to get stuck behind someone running slow. This will mess up your "loaded" numbers. So pull in a lap before so you can come off hot.

Temps can also tell you about toe setting and corner weights. See tires have an optimum operating temp. If your temps are to low or to high they will not perform the best. sometimes these numbers can be fixed with toe settings. Ex: LF150/153/155; RF130/124/133; Number like this can mean to much loading on the LF. Say you find that 140 Deg and the tire starts to go off. You need a little less loading on that LF. If both fronts are operating at too high deg you can fine tune them down a bit with toe settings.


So yea....Short version....you need a gauge and probe

-billy

 

Thanks Billy! I might just invest in one of the ones that are about 100$. Any known tire pressure gauge that work good. i have a couple of digital one, one that i bought for 10$ at a local store and another one which is a Mazda one that i got from the track once. Still looks like a cheap thing. I never though of it as a fuel pressure guage but that does make sense.

Also when you're saying in that last bit there, "too much loading on the LF", what exactly is loading? Sorry for the newbish question.

Another thing that I need to do is get myself your some of your camber plates. I'm considering also corner scaling my car just to see how weight distribution is in the car.

I know I'm still talking about doing more to the car when its all about the driver to really improve on things. But I would like to have things as tuned in a possible. I do the same thing when I'm welding school, I play with basically all the settings and understand what happens either way of the spectrum and then once i fully understand all that I start to improvise on the techniques.

 

Loading can be static and dynamic. Corner weighting the car is a must to begin tuning.

Static is when the car is on scales. objects in an area add to the wight on a corner. Like the stock battery for example. This weight will add mostly to the LF tire. Then distribute the rest to the RF tire then the LR tire then the RR tire. Moving that part around will distribute the weight elsewhere. Corner weighting the car will let you know these things and allow you to move them or adjust the spring perches to even out the static corner weights.

Dynamic is how the corners are loaded when stopping, cornering or braking. The static weights are transfered around. The amount of transfer is directly effected by springs, shocks, sway bars, roll centers and center of gravity. The further an objects weight is from the center of gravity the more that objects wight has on dynamically loading the tire.

An example of this is the racers back in the 60's that would use a lead chunk in side the frame rails. It was able to slide forward or back. In braking and cornering the weight was in front and helping the front tire traction. Under acceleration out of a corner the weight moved to the rear to help rear traction out of the corner.


You really need to look at a nice tire pressure gauge like this one:

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/p...14/Tire_Gauges

The size of the dial lets you set the pressure accurately each time. EVERYTHING about setting up a race car is about consistency from one day to the next. You really do not care if the gauge reads 31 pounds when the tire has 33 pounds in it. You just want to make sure each time you set your pressures the gauge reads exactly what you wrote down from the last time.

Also, make or download a setup sheet. Use it every time you run the car. Fill it out completely. Two years from now when you go back you will have your notes of what did best.

OH Yea......One change at a time. This way you know what works and what does not.


-billy

 

Man, great info Billy!

I've read most of this stuff in different books, but the way you just explained it makes a lot more sense. It really is time for me to start getting into the more "scientific" aspect of car setup, now that the mechanical part is coming close to completion.

 

Suspension Techniques should still make an adjustable rear sway. That's what I have, front/rear. Front is not adjustable. Bought mine through Summit. Strut bar is a must, get a triangulated one like I have and you were going to make at one time.

 

Lots of things to do but so little time nowadays I just can't wait to finish welding school and have a real life lol .

 

Real life, what's that now days? If you have a heartbeat, it's all real.

 

Back again with another update ... went out today and we started out the day and the time attack in the rain. I thought iwas doing pretty bad but apperently I got second of my class. Not sure what the times are but probably not that good at all for that part.

The only thing that i had done to the car different was adjust the sway bar by increasing it 4 threads. When it all dried out it was a different story though. I took down the sway bar a couple of thread because it felt not as neutral to drive. Put it out and my tire pressure was set at 36 in the driver front, 34.5 in the passenger front, and 41 in the backs so quite a bit different setup than what i had last time and the car felt amazing through the corners, steering was pretty much dead on (no more understeering happening in the 2 corners that i had it understeering before), and it was just enough that if i gave it a bit more gas it would slide just a tad to take those sharper corners a little quiker. But over all the car finally felt really well balanced. I just wish the time attack was done a little later on in the day to actually get good times.Oh well there will always be a next time.

Now i have another issue that arose. After trying to figure out why i was getting some lean spots, i traced the problem to fuel sloshing in the tank. There's a really tight about 165 degree turn there, and if I have less than about 1/2 a tank of fuel I start getting air bubbles in the lines. So i might have to invest in a fuel cell or make a sump system of sort.

 

Sounds like you are getting the hang of the car (not to mention, having a lot of fun!)

I'm guessing you don't have a surge tank then?

The way mine is setup is the stock rx7 fuel pump pumps into the lower-middle of mine, then my efi fuel pump takes fuel from the bottom of it. The return line from the engine bay goes into the upper-middle of the surge-tank, and the return line from the surge tank to the normal tank is from the top.

My surge tank is tiny, less than 1 Litre and everyone comments on that, but I have never had any fuel starvation problems, probably because of the way the hoses are set up.

I'm just trying to think if air bubbles went into my tank, they should rise to the top and from the pressure be pushed back to the main tank.. not sure though..

I guess the optimal setup would avoid air at all costs.. so a fuel cell of sorts with a surge tank, or 2 could help i suppose hehe..

Good luck, looking forward to hearing more stories

 

sorry i meant to say surge there instead of sump ... but ya i might be inclide to do something like your setup. Although in this gas tank, there is a fuel slosh cup sort of speak from a second gen unit in there that I was hoping to do the trick but that didn't work. For now i'm just going to have to top it off everytime before i do the time attack.

The one time it almost stalled the car and I got passed by 4 cars on that corner, and to top it off got black flaged because he thought that i slowed down on purpose.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6nx8_E8gOA

found a video of me on youtube at the track from yesterday. Guy wrote down in description "chasing 240" lol ... and who ever was taking that video thought that the civic could over take me there. The only reason i slowed down so much at that corner is because it would oversteer all the time there and I didn't feel like hitting the wall that day. But it should give you an idea of how wet it was out there ... standing water everywhere. Also by the end of that long strech away if i hit any more than about 120-125 in the wet, the brake pulsate as if it had ABS, i think its locking and unlocking though.

 

Here's a shot of me on the track:

 

Well its this time of the year again. TRACK DAYS!!! Back in the fun. So updates on what is all improved on my car since last year:

Big brake kit (Re-Speed)
Triangulated strut tower bar (Re-Speed)
slightly wider rims (15x7 as oppose to the 14x6)
still all season tires (Sumo Akina with a tread wear of 360 lol)
Better tune on the Megasquirt
And last but not least, improved driver or atleast I thinks so
Strut towers moved to maximum camber
6 puck ceramic sprung clutch from Bully Racing (stage 3)

Anyways the car definatly is more stable now tossing it back and forth on the turns. Doesn't want to step out as easily, and when it does its alot more controllable. The 2 corners that I was always "drifting" on last year, I really wasn't this year. Also with my better understanding of tires, i was able to set up the tire pressure with 1 try only and was beautiful all day long. Also I think the one that I'm mostly pleased about is no more understeer at all now. Very very happy about that one.

Big brakes definatly took a good pounding, but I think the car needs a tad bit more bias in the rear (rear slides a bit) *maybe time to invest in a brake bias system?*

Tires ... for being the cheapest tires that I can get my hands on (just regular all season tires), they did pretty good. But I had wished that my kodiak rims (15x8) had come in on time though.
With the improved tune, I can control the part throttle alot easier and better now. Also top end gained a bit. (Next to come to add more power is add a ram/cold air intake.) But over all on the strech aways I was about 10km/h quicker

 

when we were running the FC, the ecu gained us like 5-10hp total, but we were able to make the peak a lot wider (it made peak power from 6800-7800 vs 6800-7200 for the stock ecu)

also the 4000-6000 range was up like 20hp. so dont neglect the low end, broad powerband really helps!

 

If the rear end is sliding around under braking then the rear is locking up, so you would want more bias to the front. Of course the crappy tires you have on there would have a big impact on the braking, so it might not be so bad when you get the R888's.

 

Couldn't agree more with you. I spent 3 or 4 days going at it really hard tuning the mid range before hitting up the track. It made a huge difference in response and power. I had to take out a bunch of fuel out from my tune last year. alot of midrange spots I was apperently still sitting at AFR of 10:1 or so ... leaned them out to about 13 and the car really started to pull more in the midrange. I could see a 20hp midrange like you said cause the car really pulls now. Also another contribution is probably my modification to the Ignition split and a smoother transition of numbers, I found it was still a bit too erratic at first don't know how I over looked that.

All in all, the car is more fun now and thats what counts in the bottom line.

 

Nice to hear she's coming together for you. Now you've got to bring her over for a Michigan event sometime.

 

I'm trying to attend the event that billy is doing in georgia. Plus I can get to go visit my sister down there too. So I'd kill 2 birds with one stone, and if I decide to go down to florida, would be an even better deal to go see Jimmy from fuji racing.

 

Sweet! Maybe I'll see you in Atlanta then.