Five Reasons “Cash for Clunkers” is a Joke
06-30-09, 04:59 PM
#26
There's one thing yall seem to be over looking. It's OPTIONAL. So your rx7 wont be crushed unless that owner wants to trade it in for credit (Which really is none of our business to start with...) But the only people who would be taking advantage of this are people with truely busted up cars.
I don't why this socialist rhetoric keeps coming up. Somehow having the option to crush your car and make a buck off of it, means we all have to take it and the government is seizing people's cars? pssh. Bunch of idiots.
06-30-09, 07:25 PM
#27
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luminas don't qualify 'cause they get better than 18 combined mpg, even towncars get better than 18 combined... if they made it actually work (drop that stupid mpg requirement) i would gladly turn in my 91 camry and get a new car
06-30-09, 08:12 PM
#28
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Very true, I get 20-23 depending on where I'm driving on both my 12a and T2 powered FB's so it doesn't count.
In reference jshiz's post, we know its optional, what we're worried about is how this might affect potential project or parts cars. Rather than selling a beat up old FB to someone like us who could restore it or part it to keep others going they will have it recycled because they will make more money. Good for them, bad for us, especially those of us who have FC engines/parts on their FB.... Oh well
In reference jshiz's post, we know its optional, what we're worried about is how this might affect potential project or parts cars. Rather than selling a beat up old FB to someone like us who could restore it or part it to keep others going they will have it recycled because they will make more money. Good for them, bad for us, especially those of us who have FC engines/parts on their FB.... Oh well
And as much as I enjoy my FB and I wish it was a more common car so I'll have more parts but I understood that the parts are limited. So I'm gonna drive it until the wheels fall off while smiling every mile. But nothing lasts forever.
That would be my guess.
07-02-09, 07:45 AM
#29
It's being incredibly selfish lol, I'll be the first to admit it 
And yea I know they won't last forever, but I'm gonna do my best to keep them as long as I can. Whatever as everyone has pointed out the mpg requirement has pretty much saved us from too much trouble, although as thunkrd said its almost too bad because I'd trade my 94 Accord and get something newer. Oh well.
And yea I know they won't last forever, but I'm gonna do my best to keep them as long as I can. Whatever as everyone has pointed out the mpg requirement has pretty much saved us from too much trouble, although as thunkrd said its almost too bad because I'd trade my 94 Accord and get something newer. Oh well.
08-06-09, 10:08 AM
#32
As far as this boondoggle "saving" the US auto industry...
4 out of the top 5 models purchased so far under this program are Japanese makes. Even if some are assembled in the US, it's still "exporting" a lot of US money and design/management jobs.
4 out of the top 5 models purchased so far under this program are Japanese makes. Even if some are assembled in the US, it's still "exporting" a lot of US money and design/management jobs.
08-06-09, 10:27 AM
#34
Would you care to explain to me how a program, funded by the same entity that now owns a controlling stake in General Motors, is benefitting from giving away money to encourage people to buy GM's competitors' cars?
08-06-09, 10:29 PM
#35
Heres my quick input;
1. The 3500-4500 is coming from somewhere, not just being created. Oh yeah, our taxes.
2. I don't know if you've seen pictures or walked around the lots of the traded in 'clunkers', but I would drive 3/4 or more of anything turned in.
3. The newest reports of 'clunkers' being traded in, are actually for foreign cars.
4. The cheapest car my girlfriend could find was a Hyaundai Accent, which I believe she will be getting. After the 4500 rebate, it will be something like 9000 bucks.
5. When these 'clunkers' get crushed, who gets the metal? China.
There is nothing good about this program. Its showing that people are getting rid of American made vehicles to buy foreign. I guess I just dont see it.
On the plus side;
1. The 3500-4500 is coming from somewhere, not just being created. Oh yeah, our taxes.
2. I don't know if you've seen pictures or walked around the lots of the traded in 'clunkers', but I would drive 3/4 or more of anything turned in.
3. The newest reports of 'clunkers' being traded in, are actually for foreign cars.
4. The cheapest car my girlfriend could find was a Hyaundai Accent, which I believe she will be getting. After the 4500 rebate, it will be something like 9000 bucks.
5. When these 'clunkers' get crushed, who gets the metal? China.
There is nothing good about this program. Its showing that people are getting rid of American made vehicles to buy foreign. I guess I just dont see it.
On the plus side;
08-07-09, 02:13 AM
#36
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First off: I have nothing but respect for your technical advice which has always been learned and spot-on. You, and threads you have been involved in have saved me from me and good intentioned automotive mayhem on several occasions.
As a gearhead, I've followed the "industry" for the last ten years. I've read books by previous CEOs, and books on marketing writing about previous CEOs. Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep didn't fare well because Daimler's plans didn't turnaround very quick. The split with Daimler and the purchase by Cerberus (lol) required the firesale of a lot of their "assets." This happened a year before GM did their best UAW impersonation and showed up to the teat with their empty hand in the air.
From a financial position, GM hasn't showed a valid profit for years. That's hedged against the fact that they still counted "Olds" as an asset. Yes! On the books when reckoning occurred they still were borrowing billions of dollars against the trademark "Oldsmobile." NOT intellectual property, not olds' magic body designations, names or other goodies... They valued the name and the right to use the name "Oldsmobile" for billions of dollars and borrowed against it.
All of that being said: Us (the taxpayers) being owners of these corporations who spent all of their cash on hookers and blow MIGHT be a way to "salvage" the industry. Cash for clunkers (CARS) is not.
The previous administration drove up debt. This is a fact. The new administration created a greater amount of debt within the first two months. The new administration's greater economic policy and warfighting doctrine are the same. New boss = Old boss + iPod.
... That isn't necessarily true. There are several well industrialized countries that pay far less income tax (per capita) than United States citizens (Korea, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, etc...) To add insult to injury, the working poor in this country are burdened with most of the non-income-tax tax burden (as a percentage of income.) Included with that are government service fees (fines, court fees, property and excise taxes) and other 'hidden' taxes (cigarettes, hooch, etc.)
Freedom is not free, that is true. CARS is not achieving, nor is it capable of achieving that goal.
This I’ll argue with directly: In a constitutional republic EVERY TIME is the right time and EVERY PLACE is the right place to get ON the soap box and educate (by force if necessary...)
CARS is a complete and total abortion. Almost no vehicle that doesn't say Aston Martin, Ferrari or Bugati on the front qualifies. Those that do (a couple of 'vettes, a Caddy here and there) wholesale for far beyond the $4500 destruction rebate.
And a note on that... For those of you who are into the whole "green" thing: The cost of resources/biomass that's incurred when a vehicle is put together can never be offset by fuel economy. A replacement vehicle, even if it achieved 1,000 MPG would still have a net HARM on the environment.
That being said, vehicles that are 'recycled' in the cars program have their drivetrain destroyed as part of the dealer receiving their money. So... If you are a sound environmentalist and wish to keep your late model vehicle running well, with the emissions systems intact and so on, parts are going to become scarce due to the idiocy involved with said destruction. More HARM.
And as if all that wasn't enough, here is some wisdom from someone I interviewed that runs a local (to me) auto recycler. The "cost" to prepare a car to be put into a salvage yard/crushed is between $800 and $1,000. This includes collection and "disposal" of the hazardous fluids (per state statute) contained within the car. Gasoline, coolant, oil, other lubricants and hydraulics must all be collected. Tires must be disposed of and documented.
"Oil" prior to this point was a zero sum cost. However, from this point on due to the mandated sodium silicate method for destruction, oil will have to be separated into two categories, "Free" and "not free" for disposal.
... And it gets worse!
The silicate method also changes how the engines themselves can be 'recycled' for scrap. Locally there are several recyclers who bash cars to bits, (crushers aren't really employed anymore, I'm told) separate the bits by specific gravity, then sort like with like and heat to a generic slurry for transport by aprox. alloy. Unfortunately, the impurities generated (glass, generally) are too mighty to be "burned off" using this method, which means that these materials will have to be shipped to a foundry/forced induction furnace to be turned into anything useful... As of right-now there aren't any local enough for the recycler I talked to make it even remotely profitable.
And perhaps the worst of the worst...
If we were talking about a '72 Grand Fury with a curb weight of... a lot... There still may be some profit left in the destruction and dismantling of the vehicle. HOWEVER: As an example, my other car (that's actually starting/running right now... I hate carbs.) is a '97 Dodge Stratus. Dry curb weight is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,000 pounds. A handy guide that my local recycler had told him that there is 1,750 pounds of 'cost materials' on the vehicle. These are things like upholstery, headliner, glass; rubber and plastic. These things all have to be physically removed from the vehicle before it's shredded. My vehicle came equipped from the factory in Mexico (...) with a 2.4L DOHC engine which weighs 400lbs (dry.) This means that there's only about 850lbs of recyclable (sellable) materials if the engine were to be removed...
Remember, the hard cost to prep a car for recycling is $900(ish...) The circle of fail is complete.
The recycler I interviewed basically said that he (and his business) was not going to touch cars at all, but instead focus on trucks where the been-parted-out profit exists, and shelve the motors until "later." He also suggested that those recyclers that do take in late-model cars that were "clunkered" will simply raise profits by skirting EPA rules and other matters that would otherwise cost money.
---
We have a program that takes serviceable vehicles off the street, stacks them up in rustyards across the country, will lead to harm being cast in the form of illegal dumping and so on, is HORRIBLE for the environment AND costs us money. Yeah!
You guys are really getting your hackles up over a guy with good intentions and a plan to at least try to help salvage an auto industry that went belly up because of the unregulated, self-indulgent, "freedom" loving earth and economy destroying habits of 20 years of Republican legislation and over indulgent American consumers.
From a financial position, GM hasn't showed a valid profit for years. That's hedged against the fact that they still counted "Olds" as an asset. Yes! On the books when reckoning occurred they still were borrowing billions of dollars against the trademark "Oldsmobile." NOT intellectual property, not olds' magic body designations, names or other goodies... They valued the name and the right to use the name "Oldsmobile" for billions of dollars and borrowed against it.
All of that being said: Us (the taxpayers) being owners of these corporations who spent all of their cash on hookers and blow MIGHT be a way to "salvage" the industry. Cash for clunkers (CARS) is not.
George Bush and croonies dug a hole so deep it will be very hard for us to climb back out, but at the very least it will require new ideas and new intitiatives. Some will work, some won't. But sitting on your asses belly aching about losing an election is for sure not going to help.
US citizens pay the lowest taxes of any civilized nation, we can do much better for our country and for the entire world community. Paying a bit more of our generous incomes to assure a secure nation and liveable world is just plain smart investing. Civilization isn't free and freedom without responsibility is a joke.
Freedom is not free, that is true. CARS is not achieving, nor is it capable of achieving that goal.
CARS is a complete and total abortion. Almost no vehicle that doesn't say Aston Martin, Ferrari or Bugati on the front qualifies. Those that do (a couple of 'vettes, a Caddy here and there) wholesale for far beyond the $4500 destruction rebate.
And a note on that... For those of you who are into the whole "green" thing: The cost of resources/biomass that's incurred when a vehicle is put together can never be offset by fuel economy. A replacement vehicle, even if it achieved 1,000 MPG would still have a net HARM on the environment.
That being said, vehicles that are 'recycled' in the cars program have their drivetrain destroyed as part of the dealer receiving their money. So... If you are a sound environmentalist and wish to keep your late model vehicle running well, with the emissions systems intact and so on, parts are going to become scarce due to the idiocy involved with said destruction. More HARM.
And as if all that wasn't enough, here is some wisdom from someone I interviewed that runs a local (to me) auto recycler. The "cost" to prepare a car to be put into a salvage yard/crushed is between $800 and $1,000. This includes collection and "disposal" of the hazardous fluids (per state statute) contained within the car. Gasoline, coolant, oil, other lubricants and hydraulics must all be collected. Tires must be disposed of and documented.
"Oil" prior to this point was a zero sum cost. However, from this point on due to the mandated sodium silicate method for destruction, oil will have to be separated into two categories, "Free" and "not free" for disposal.
... And it gets worse!
The silicate method also changes how the engines themselves can be 'recycled' for scrap. Locally there are several recyclers who bash cars to bits, (crushers aren't really employed anymore, I'm told) separate the bits by specific gravity, then sort like with like and heat to a generic slurry for transport by aprox. alloy. Unfortunately, the impurities generated (glass, generally) are too mighty to be "burned off" using this method, which means that these materials will have to be shipped to a foundry/forced induction furnace to be turned into anything useful... As of right-now there aren't any local enough for the recycler I talked to make it even remotely profitable.
And perhaps the worst of the worst...
If we were talking about a '72 Grand Fury with a curb weight of... a lot... There still may be some profit left in the destruction and dismantling of the vehicle. HOWEVER: As an example, my other car (that's actually starting/running right now... I hate carbs.) is a '97 Dodge Stratus. Dry curb weight is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,000 pounds. A handy guide that my local recycler had told him that there is 1,750 pounds of 'cost materials' on the vehicle. These are things like upholstery, headliner, glass; rubber and plastic. These things all have to be physically removed from the vehicle before it's shredded. My vehicle came equipped from the factory in Mexico (...) with a 2.4L DOHC engine which weighs 400lbs (dry.) This means that there's only about 850lbs of recyclable (sellable) materials if the engine were to be removed...
Remember, the hard cost to prep a car for recycling is $900(ish...) The circle of fail is complete.
The recycler I interviewed basically said that he (and his business) was not going to touch cars at all, but instead focus on trucks where the been-parted-out profit exists, and shelve the motors until "later." He also suggested that those recyclers that do take in late-model cars that were "clunkered" will simply raise profits by skirting EPA rules and other matters that would otherwise cost money.
---
We have a program that takes serviceable vehicles off the street, stacks them up in rustyards across the country, will lead to harm being cast in the form of illegal dumping and so on, is HORRIBLE for the environment AND costs us money. Yeah!
08-07-09, 05:09 PM
#39
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There are several factual errors with the NYT article. The most glaring is that there is a suggestion that one can "clunker" a SUV for a car. That is not true.
08-07-09, 10:15 PM
#40
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learned a bunch of stuff about this today...
1. the clunker needs to be NEWER than a selling date of 8/84, FB's are mostly exempt by age =)
2. in CA the clunker needs to be currently registered, which means it needs to PASS SMOG.
3. the dealer we were at had a bunch of nice cars, 750il, e320's, e36 bmws, caddies, s-class benzes... lots of cars with a sticker price of over $50k
4. we added a 1990 190E 2.6 mercedes to the heap, good riddance, its quiet, in reality got good mileage (i averaged 23). i put 40k miles on it in a little over 5 years, and the repair costs were 10x what the average FB costs to run.
5. piston engine cars don't pass smog as well as the rotary does
1. the clunker needs to be NEWER than a selling date of 8/84, FB's are mostly exempt by age =)
2. in CA the clunker needs to be currently registered, which means it needs to PASS SMOG.
3. the dealer we were at had a bunch of nice cars, 750il, e320's, e36 bmws, caddies, s-class benzes... lots of cars with a sticker price of over $50k
4. we added a 1990 190E 2.6 mercedes to the heap, good riddance, its quiet, in reality got good mileage (i averaged 23). i put 40k miles on it in a little over 5 years, and the repair costs were 10x what the average FB costs to run.
5. piston engine cars don't pass smog as well as the rotary does
08-21-09, 10:11 AM
#41
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I can speak from my experience on the CFC. I "clunked" my 98 Jeep Wranger and picked up a 09 Dodge Caliber. I stripped the Jeep to just legal. I sold off the parts I took from my Jeep (Doors, roof, kayak rack, 33' wheels and tires, bumpers, etc....) I then took the cash I made from the parts and bought my 1980 RX7 and joined this forum. I love driving the 7 and have learned a lot from the forum....I'd say that is a win/win!
08-21-09, 10:26 AM
#42
Im taking in my 01 Xterra this afternoon if we can find a nice mazda3 we like. Every panel on my truck is dimpled from a crazy hail storm we had a while back - got 3500$ out of that. The transmission is slipping and it needs 4 new tires. With 130K miles on it and the body damage its worth maybe 2K. If I can end up with a decent DD and get almost 9K out of my old truck I'll be doing pretty good.
Oh and when I checked the eligibility of my xterra I found they would take my 85 SE as well. But there is no way in hell!!! Another misconception is that they shred the cars. They destroy the engine but the rest of the car is left alone. I will also get the ~300$ scrap value that the dealer gets when he sells it to the junkyard...
Oh and when I checked the eligibility of my xterra I found they would take my 85 SE as well. But there is no way in hell!!! Another misconception is that they shred the cars. They destroy the engine but the rest of the car is left alone. I will also get the ~300$ scrap value that the dealer gets when he sells it to the junkyard...
08-21-09, 10:51 AM
#44
You can check out the videos on Youtube of them CfCing the cars.
My favorites are this one with a NICE volvo, worth way more than 4500! They poured the liquid glass in and that baby ran for 4 minutes straight. The last minute it was screaming (tear in the eye moment) for it to stop, and when the motor quit it blew a huge stream of oil (like a jugular squirt of blood) out
Then there are the Ford V10's, expeditions, chevy silverados that last 10 seconds.
My favorites are this one with a NICE volvo, worth way more than 4500! They poured the liquid glass in and that baby ran for 4 minutes straight. The last minute it was screaming (tear in the eye moment) for it to stop, and when the motor quit it blew a huge stream of oil (like a jugular squirt of blood) out
Then there are the Ford V10's, expeditions, chevy silverados that last 10 seconds.
08-21-09, 04:52 PM
#47
In Cuba they recycle their cars forever. Did anybody ever hear that Jackson Browne song "Going Down to Cuba" where he sings about the Chevrolet with a Soviet transmission? Now that is cool. He did it great on the Cobert Report, the back up singers were fantastic, but here's the utube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-72fOcOwKc4
and here's the lyrics:
Sometimes I get to feeling low
Wish I could just pick up and go somewhere new
Change my point of view
Maybe somewhere I don't know
Toss the idea to and fro
Not sure what makes it come and go
There it is again: sweet music on the wind
Over the Gulf of Mexico
I'm going to down to Cuba someday soon
Following that Caribbean moon
It's been too long since I've been there
I'm going down to Cuba with my friends
Down where the rhythm never ends
Where women wear gardenias in their hair
People will tell you it's not easy
You're not supposed to go, they say
They say that Cuba is the enemy
I'm going down there anyway
I'm going down to Cuba to see my friends
Down where the rhythm never ends
No problem is too difficult to solve
Yeah times are tough down there it's true
But you know they're going to make it through
They make such continuous use of the verb to resolve
They've got to deal with that embargo
Enough to drive any country insane
They might not know the things you and I know
They do know what to do in a hurricane
Maybe I'll go through Mexico
Old Jesse Helms don't have to know
Anyway all the allies of the USA
Travel to Cuba everyday
I'm going down to Cuba to see my friends
Down where the rhythm never ends
Where by comparison my trouble will just unravel
I'm North American, you know
Don't like to hear where I can't go
Free people will insist on the freedom to travel
I'm going to drink the rum mojito
And walk out on the Malecon
In one hand a Monte Cristo
And in the other an ice cream cone
I'm going down to Cuba with my band
We're going to formulate a plan
Whereby we obtain that cultural permission
If I told you once I told you thrice
It'll put a smile on your face to see a Chevrolet with a Soviet transmission
I bet the country cast a spell
And there are things I think of still
Like the beauty of that woman that spoke to me
In the Hotel Nacional
I'm gonna book my flight today
I'm definitely on my way
Just hold my place and I'll get back in the race
And I'm back in the USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-72fOcOwKc4
and here's the lyrics:
Sometimes I get to feeling low
Wish I could just pick up and go somewhere new
Change my point of view
Maybe somewhere I don't know
Toss the idea to and fro
Not sure what makes it come and go
There it is again: sweet music on the wind
Over the Gulf of Mexico
I'm going to down to Cuba someday soon
Following that Caribbean moon
It's been too long since I've been there
I'm going down to Cuba with my friends
Down where the rhythm never ends
Where women wear gardenias in their hair
People will tell you it's not easy
You're not supposed to go, they say
They say that Cuba is the enemy
I'm going down there anyway
I'm going down to Cuba to see my friends
Down where the rhythm never ends
No problem is too difficult to solve
Yeah times are tough down there it's true
But you know they're going to make it through
They make such continuous use of the verb to resolve
They've got to deal with that embargo
Enough to drive any country insane
They might not know the things you and I know
They do know what to do in a hurricane
Maybe I'll go through Mexico
Old Jesse Helms don't have to know
Anyway all the allies of the USA
Travel to Cuba everyday
I'm going down to Cuba to see my friends
Down where the rhythm never ends
Where by comparison my trouble will just unravel
I'm North American, you know
Don't like to hear where I can't go
Free people will insist on the freedom to travel
I'm going to drink the rum mojito
And walk out on the Malecon
In one hand a Monte Cristo
And in the other an ice cream cone
I'm going down to Cuba with my band
We're going to formulate a plan
Whereby we obtain that cultural permission
If I told you once I told you thrice
It'll put a smile on your face to see a Chevrolet with a Soviet transmission
I bet the country cast a spell
And there are things I think of still
Like the beauty of that woman that spoke to me
In the Hotel Nacional
I'm gonna book my flight today
I'm definitely on my way
Just hold my place and I'll get back in the race
And I'm back in the USA
08-21-09, 09:30 PM
#48
Got rid of the xterra this evening and got a 09 mazda6 (4cyl). I probably wouldnt have bought a new car without this deal but I think I got much more out of my old truck that I would have any other way. It was a good truck though and was still a bit sad to see it go knowing its fate.
It wasnt exactly hassle free though. We needed proof it was registered for last year - not the sticker but 12 months worth so luckily there was a title place down the road - 4$ cost. Then it was 12 months of insurance - same deal not a valid card but proof of last 12 months straight. Who saves old insurance cards?!!? We really got jacked around by some idiots at our insurance co so that took like 2+ hours. After that it was just a normal car deal and went pretty fast. I took one last pic of the truck and I'll post it with a picture of the new car in the AM.
It wasnt exactly hassle free though. We needed proof it was registered for last year - not the sticker but 12 months worth so luckily there was a title place down the road - 4$ cost. Then it was 12 months of insurance - same deal not a valid card but proof of last 12 months straight. Who saves old insurance cards?!!? We really got jacked around by some idiots at our insurance co so that took like 2+ hours. After that it was just a normal car deal and went pretty fast. I took one last pic of the truck and I'll post it with a picture of the new car in the AM.
08-22-09, 03:57 PM
#49
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I'd say that's a nice trade.
Keep in mind folks, even though a net profit is going overseas when you buy a foreign car, most of them such as Ratboy's new Mazda6 are built in North America. The 6 is built in the same Ford plant that builds the Fusion and Mustang, just south of Detroit. That means there are people that get to work one more day so those trading in their actual clunkers can get the new foreign car that was built right down the street.
Keep in mind folks, even though a net profit is going overseas when you buy a foreign car, most of them such as Ratboy's new Mazda6 are built in North America. The 6 is built in the same Ford plant that builds the Fusion and Mustang, just south of Detroit. That means there are people that get to work one more day so those trading in their actual clunkers can get the new foreign car that was built right down the street.
