Hey guys, I need some help/advise. I am planning on turning an 84 gls-se into a chump car racer for next year at mid-ohio. The engine is original as far as I can tell and the car sat for about 10years. I got it running and the motor seems strong but it has 120,000miles on it. Is there any reason to think it would make it through and 8 hour race or should I rebuild it? Also how hard is and rotary rebuild? Its seems like we cant do anything to the motor to get more HP but maybe there are things we could do to help it survive the race? I have worked on piston engines a lot. I am afraid to drop $1,300 on a racing beat rebuild kit and mess it up. Any advice on things that might help us make it to the end of the race with a running car would be great!

 

For a race car I wouldn't waste time trying to source series 3 engine parts. Just get a keg from an FC out of a junkyard car and rebuild it. Rotaries are ridiculously simple engines; its just a matter of paying for parts.

 

Hi Qingdao,
Thanks for your answer. So if I get a second gen motor will it work with everything else; headers, intake, trans, sensors, etc? Anything else i should modify to change to have a better shot at finishing the race?
Thanks!

 

Wait. I've heard the SE intakes are funky. You might have to get creative for that, but if you swap the keg stuff just nab the intake off the FC while you're at it.

**** now I'm getting myself into FI trouble.

If it was me I'd definetly go with an fc keg for racing, if nothing else its cheaper to get parts for. I'd sit down with the FC engine and have the GSL-SE intake right there next to it. And drill some holes in the GSL-SE intake to make it work with the FC engine. Can't be that much different the two engines have the ports at the same general place.


You'll have to swap the front covers and oil pans but that's pretty obvious.

 

So, I have run a GSL-SE in Chump and LeMons for 3 years. Can't do a long post right now but here are my bullet points

1. Our car was similar to yours: Sat for a long time but got it running strong.
2. We ran our car almost entirely stock, of course removing all AC/air pump etc.
3. In stock form the car isn't super fast but good enough to get out of it's own way. It used to be better but Chump is getting out of control with fast builds but that's whatever.
4. We ran our car in like 12 endurance races before the motor needed a rebuild.

I could go on but my advice would be build the car and do some races. You won't be pulling on the straights but you won't be run over.

We ran with the auxiliary oil pump as well as premixing the fuel. (the more oil in the motor the better it will last)

I just rebuilt our motor and it is currently a nightmare (for me, some people are great at these things).

There is a thread on the forum about rear end setup; READ IT. It is mega important. The rear end can bind and give you massive snap oversteer. If you do some simple setup things it will alleviate this...

ah... what else...

Just build the car!

 

Qingdao- I have found a Fc motor (just motor). If i get the FC intake will it work with all my wiring?

Wallyrx7 - I think we will use the current motor until it goes. Which pre-mix oil did you use? I tried to find the rear end setup thread but no luck. Do you have a link?
I am having some issues with rust in the gas tank now so i think i will need to drop the tank and clean it out and re-coat it.
Did you ever mess with your LSD? I am pretty sure mine is not working/ not working well.
Also the car has RB headers and straight pipe (no cats), it has a motor brace as well. Are they going to get excited about these mods?

Thanks So much for the responses!

 

Pre-mix type doesn't matter in my opinion. We add one once + per gallon so we buy the big jug of Peak brand from the gas station because you end up using a lot in a weekend.

*Sigh* We did rebuild the LSD because our pinion bearings went so I thought while I have it apart... and I was stupid; I wanted to be thrifty so I bought a bunch of used clutch plates and cobbled together the best (5? or 6? I can't remember). Anyway... my diff still sucks. I wish I had rebuilt with new clutch discs but they are $$$ and things add up fast. To be honest, with relatively stock motor, you can mash the gas out of the turns and there isn't too much torque to break the wheels loose so it's not a priority.

This is the thread I was referring too. Like anything you have to skim over some fluff but this has all the good stuff.

https://www.rx7club.com/1st-generati...utions-876479/

The header is pretty standard, it is the main power adder for these motors so no, no one will give you crap for it. Also exhaust is always an open item so everyone has straight through exhausts. Have you run the car yet? It may be VERY loud and be over certain track dB limits... but this has all been covered.

To be honest. Get familiar with searching forums and sifting through things. It's all out there for these cars. People have been racing them for years so 90% of questions have probably been asked and answered somewhere.

Most importantly, and this is what I did, just put a cage in it and enter a race.

Oh final tip. Replace the fusible link block with a standard blade fuse block. I can't even describe to you the frustration this alleviated.

 

Yeah, that's where I get into trouble. I don't know anything about fuel injection on these cars. I wouldn't imagine the FC intake would work with the GSL-SE wiring. I'd keep the GSL-SE fuel injection system if I could. The bolt holes might be different but its not impossible or difficult to make an adaptor plate. You might loose the 5 and 6 port actuators but they'll still flow air.


And if you run a strait pipe I'm pretty sure they'll run you off the track. I can't imagine any track or person that would want a strait pipe rotary anywhere around them.

 

Wallyrx7 - Ok, found that thread last night (rear end stuff). Four hours later and I think I need to find a Panhard setup and re-do all my bushings. Is this what you did? This tread is very long but it seems like everyone has a different way of "fixing" this. The car has Tokico struts in the front (white) and Koni adjustable (orange) in the rear. It looks like stock springs. Should i worry about the springs or roll bars or just see what breaks/ needs fixed after? What set up are you running?
Sorry, I was not clear about the exhaust, it has a RB muffler. Its is loud but there is no way it will be the loudest thing at the track.
Qingdao - Thanks for the info I will have to look into this before I pick up another motor (even used beat-up ones are not cheap).
Thanks!

 

So of course I would get new bushings for front control arms/sway bar. But do not put new bushings in the rear links. What you're looking for in compliance from the rear. All new bushing you can buy will be poly, so too hard. stock is rubber, so more flexible.

We built our own panhard bar setup (which I have posted in that thread actually). But this was after quite a few races. Just keep the rear elements "loosely tightened" and you will be ok.

I am not here saying my car is the best setup car. We have simply improved here and there as things broke and with whatever was available to us.

If you are serious about entering a race my advice is pay the entry fee. Then you are committed. Just do it. Don't worry about perfect car setup.

 

It is possible to run an S4 intake with GSL-SE electronics, that is what I ran last year and it ran strong. If you look at the picture I have pipe plugs in the secondary injector bosses and 5-6 port actuator holes, as long as you keep the SE air flow meter it will pretty much run ok. We had podium finishes, and could have been fighting for the win at AMP if not for a noise black flag early in the race.



That said I believe I was at the limit of what I could get out of that system and with some points freed up for 2016 I am working on a full MS3-Pro system with a S5 intake and 4 injectors.

 

MHR650 - Thanks so much for the info! Pictures are great!
I have been replacing a bunch of worn out stuff on the car; i got to the brakes and I am having issues. I have all new calipers and rotors and hawk HP pads but the brakes still dont feel very good. Very mushy and when I had it on the road I had to panic stop and they seemed really bad. I am thinking maybe my brake booster could have gone bad maybe the pads are just cold? I even replaced all of the flexible lines but it did not seem to help. Any advice on making this thing stop better?
For racing what wheels and tires are people using? The stock wheels are not bad but there are just not many options for tires. MHR650 - It looks like you run the enkei compe? The seem like a reasonable choice. What size and offset do you use?

 

I don't really know anything about the SE brakes, I have only used standard GSL brakes or the second gen big brakes I have on the on the car now. Going from the stock brakes to the big brakes was the single biggest upgrade we have ever made to the car, the stock brakes had way too much rear bias and made the car really twitchy under hard braking, and cracked front rotors like crazy. I don't know what pads are available for the SE brakes, but I doubt that the HP pads will be suitable at least in the front, when we ran the stock brakes we ran Hawk Blue in the front and Black in the rear, that was pretty much the best available. Any race pad will definitely need to be hot to really work right, but you should be able to lock up the wheels even with a dead cold pad if it is working right. The brake boosters on these cars do go bad, I had one that was leaking, I was able to improve it by removing the master cylinder and pulling the plunger out, it was caked in rust and grunge, I cleaned and lubed it up and it was much better. I am in the process of replacing the brakes I have now with even bigger Wilwood brakes, at that point I plan to remove the booster entirely, I may even remove it with the second gen brakes I have now, it is way too powerful and easy to lock up and flat spot a tire.

One thing I would be very concerned about is racing with the SE front hubs and rotors, I have personally seen them break at a race and it is not pretty. That was on a car that still had 14 inch wheels and tires that are nowhere near as sticky as some of the stuff that is on the market now. They replaced the front hubs with an aluminum hub, some kind of bolt on rotor, and Wilwood calipers and it has worked fine for them since then.

For now I still have the old 4X110 bolt pattern so about the only available wheels are the Koenig Rewind. As part of my Wilwood upgrade I plan to change the bolt pattern to either 4X114.3, or 4X100. That will allow me to get some 15X9 wheels on the car which will be much better for some of the bigger tires that are on the horizon. With the SE bolt pattern it opens up a lot more wheels for you, I would recommend at least a 15X8, those work very well even of you stick with a 205 tire.

 

MHR650 - Good call on tearing apart the brake booster and cleaning it out. I will get on that this weekend.
Ok you have me very worried about the hubs and rotors..... what aftermarket is there to solve this problem?
15x8 sounds like the way to go. What offset did you find to work best?
Thanks alot for the help!

 

Not trying to say the SE hubs may not technically be a weak spot and mhr650 is certainly very knowledgeable about running these cars but I have to put in my 2 cents.

I have run a gsl-se in crapcan endure racing for 3 years and

1. Running 205 direzzas we have never wanted for more stopping power. Tires were always limiting factor.
2. Our brakes have never overheated or cracked. (we use cryotreated rotors). We don't even have brake ducting.

Do run Hawk blues in front and blacks in rear for better balance.

Now, this is with a mostly stock motor and we just got done a ported rebuild so maybe the increased speed will make a difference.

Look if you go looking for all the advice on every "weak point" on this car you will be redesigning and fabricating every last piece.

To put together a baseline racecar the factory brakes are more than adequate.

 

I will admit that I have never seen a GSL-SE hub-rotor in person, both my first car that got totaled and the car I have now started out as regular GSL cars. I looked at the design and it wasn't compatible with my system of machining the rotor off and then slipping a second gen rotor over the hub that is left, that system works really well, and if you already have a supply of 4X110 wheels it is a smart solution.



I do know that a couple of years ago the Rotary Rotards broke a hub at AMP, I don't know if it involved contact, but they are pretty fast, they run a 13B with a Holley.

My real motivation to change over to Wilwood is a bit different, the brakes on the car now are fantastic and if anything they are too strong. I want to change to help out a friend who is the east coast rep for Wilwood, that means my brakes will be free, and I will design a kit to mount the brakes on these first gen cars. I have a kit designed now, but it really is specialized to my car with the machined down GSL front hubs, and a drum brake rear end housing. if they decide to offer a production kit it would include machined aluminum hubs, which could be had with whatever bolt pattern you wanted. The improvement I am looking for with the Wilwood brakes and removing the vacuum booster is to improve the feel for my drivers, the better drivers report that it lacks feedback which I blame on having the booster.