stripling

driving around yesterday, everything was going fine with my pineapple racing rebuilt fd engine.

rob at pineapple in portland, oregon rebuilt it for me just over 4 years ago. i spent about four grand having them do the work and pulled the engine myself. it was and adventure.

it's supposed to have a 5 year warranty and 60,000 miles. we'll see because the apex seal threw out AGAIN! and what was i doing? oh, i was driving around an albertson's parking lot. about 7 m/h. what the crap?!?!

i ended up getting my g/f to tow me home when it stalled and wouldn't stop.

i called rob. he told me the seals were probably stuck. i changed the plugs this morning and it still wouldn't start. rob told me to steam clean it and gave me directions on how to do so. he also told me to atf trick unstick the seals or seafoam 'em.

i seafomed 'em. i read atf is evil on this forum, so i played it safe.

i put vacuum tubing Y'd into the two vacuum ports on the upper intake and strung it to the passanger's seat. my g/f fed seafoam then water then seafoam then water again into the vacuum tube via a regulator valve (which i purchased at a fish 'n' pet shop) as i drove around in 3rd and 4th gear down the freeway.

i went on a nice 15 mile drive around vegas. seafoam, water, seafoam, water... praying the apex seal would "losen up".

no such luck... but i'll tell ya one thing... even with a blow engine/apex after the seafoam and water steam cleanings tricks the engine ran much better!

i had no idea this was something i should have been doing! i've owned this car since 1995... rob assures me this seafoam and water sucking can not hurt the engine and breaks up carbon like magic. i've never cracked an fd engine but rob tells me, due to oil injection as well as normal gas burn, the fd excells at making vast carbon leavins. nice.

well, he was right. i got it back in my garage and it actually sustains an idle! (after i cranked it on my power fc)

opened the hood and, "clink, clink... clink.... clink, clink... clink"

is that the damn sound of my apex seal clicking around like a quarter in the clothes dryer????

i'm SURE it is! tomorrow i'll pull the plugs and look inside the motor and see for myself.

THIS is EXACTALLY what happened last time! an apex seal "threw" off, or whatever. last time it had the good manners to leave the engine via the exhaust but i'm hearing "clink clink clink!" and it's making me... upset? sad? take your pick.

i spent so much money 4 1/2 years ago... only 15,000 miles, IF THAT!

now i'm in decision mode... chuck the car and kill this unhealthy 3rd gen "love" or rebuild the engine (will pineapple racing warranty it? I DOUBT IT! I'll update you after i talk to rob on monday.. i love the guy, but since i lost my job last month i'm sure i'm just f'd...pun intended) or, worse yet, put a piston engine in there?

what am i doing wrong? why can't i make this engine work? why can't i get 150,000 miles on it? hell, even my g/f's hyundai elantra has 209,000 miles on it and it runs like a champ! original.... everything! motor and transmission... my car's only got 67,000 on it and has needed the syncros replaced for like 3 years now. this car is breaking my heart.

i don't race it, i don't run it hard much at all and never over-revv it... i ... hate this. anyone give me some good advise? i'm feeling kinda... broken... with the thought of all the work ahead of me and MONEY... i was certain the car would run over 100,000 miles five years ago after talking to rob at pineapple. he, and others, assured me it was the stock computer running the engine too lean.

i got stock turbo, upgraded everything else, steet ported motor, power fc with datalogit, fm greddy... the works... i never race it, i baby it.... what the hell? anybody? bueller? bueller? what should i do???

2007 ZX-10

lol

I feel your pain, man...been there...I'm on my 3rd engine and pulled out all the stops to make it reliable, including 3 mm seals (I also run pre-mix Amsoil two stroke and deleted the stock OMP)...after two years, so far, so good

that's not necessarily good, in all honestly these engines love to run ***** to the wall or nothing...they just load up if you dog it, and FD has to be the worst daily driver ever invented by man

this car will test your patience and empty your wallet

stripling

thanks for the reply... and the sympathy... rob told me 2 piece apex seals began common use around 2003... are these BETTER than the crap i'm using? this achilles heal alone, for me, is so elusive, so foreign and so costly i'm on the verge of throwing in the towel.

oh, and did i mention the crappy gas milage?

man i hate this... i've always championed rx-7's and rotaries... now look at me... i wish someone would perfect the weaknesses of this engine (apex seals!! hello??) so i could fall in love again.

oh, and bring gas back down to $1.28/gal... i'm thinking that even if some miricle happended and the rotory engine became RELIABLE i'd bawk on the economy of it.

i mean, hey, the fd's supposed to be the poor man's pure sports car... if i were rich i'd get a ferrari.

sigh... i knew i should have gotten that supra-turbo back in '95 when i bought this dog

unseen4life

iTrader: (1)

hey bro i feel ur pains, my rx7 has been rebuilt three times, im actually putting the engine in tomorrow hang in there bro itll work out u can go to rotary revolutions.com they have the 2mm super apex seals cheap incase u wanna rebuild it again i think i paid a lil over 2 hundo for a full set theyll hook u up on whatever u need for a real low price and a buddy of mine has a lot of extra rotors,rotor housings just let me know what weight u need and ill be happy to help u out

2007 ZX-10

no, they are junk, my reman failed quickly with those seals..I'm personally sold on the 3 mm but that topic has been batted back and forth for years on this forum

KFC3S

Sell your car cheap to someone who knows what this car is.

Honestly, you are correct in this being a 'poor mans' sports car, and yes its comparable to a ferrari in ways, but the ferrari comparison also includes the 'if you pay for two of them in cash you can afford to drive one of them' factor.

Sell it and buy a STi or Lancer Evolution, even a 350z or S2000 - you would probably find it a much better match for your position.

RX7LINK

iTrader: (3)

sorry to hear about ur motor man. i hope rob can warranty it. do you drive the car hard much if at all? maybe u had too much carbon buildup around the housing that damaged the seals. you know the saying... a redline a day, keeps the carbon away... :p

hope u keep the rotary faith man. Supras are fat and dumb. once that motor fires up again, you're passion since 95 will come back to ya. might wanna consider cryo'd or 3mm seals if u decide to rebuild

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i am sorry to hear about your rotary problems. many of us have been down the road and those still running and loving the rotary (like me) have been through a learning process.

like many things in life of value, often you need to invest to get the outcome you desire. and i am only partially talking about money.

my guess is that it is not your motor, certainly not your apex seals, that is to blame. it is probably your tune. since the turbo'd rotary needs to run a tad rich for cooling it is easy to fall into the trap of over richening it w both the fuel map and from oiling. most rotaries i tear down have tons of carbon all over the rotors including the apes seal grooves. apex seal groove to seal clearance is important. the seal must move in and out on the groove w every compression stroke. the same goes for the side seals.

the stock twin turbo manifold is a thermal nightmare. 22 pounds, most of it being cast iron, bolted to aluminum rotor housings. the most heat retentive substance (cast iron) bolted to the most heat receptive substance (aluminum). add in the fact that the rotary generates about 200 more degrees of EGT than a piston motor and you have an oven baking the motor.

one of the great advantages of the single turbo setup is you remove the 22 pounds of heat rententive material from the side of the motor and decrease the exhaust manifold pressure/heat. 22 pounds to maybe 6 pounds (just counting the flanges)

looking at the OEM manifold you will see to your horror that the exhaust turbines outlets face each other in a chamber! so the single most important drivers of the compressors are working against each other! compare this to a single turbo where the exhaust rushes unimpeded out of the turbine. we are talking heat buildup.

we own 2 FDs. mine is highly modded and my wife's is fairly stock. she is running a reman and it is in it's 5th year. (just summers in wisconsin.) stock turbos... stock factory map. so i guess it can be done but i wouldn't want to bet my life on how long... with what i know, i am not optimistic that the FD w the stock turbosystem can run for a long time without baking the motor.

since you mention you are currently not riding the apogee of your career, money sounds like it is a key issue... a single turbo conversion envolves a fair amount, probably $8-10,000 if you pay someone to do it properly. you do have a number of items already... the PFC, DL, and IC.

it certainly is possible to run the stock turbosystem but you probably do need to straighten out your tune.

BTW, as to mileage, it's a matter of physics. weight of the car, aerodynamic drag, both are favorable for the FD. yes, the rotary has a slight discount as to VE versus the piston engine but it also flows more and has less moving parts. i get 22mpg when i am not in boost. it all gets back to tune.

bottom line is FDs are not inexpensive cars even when you personally have a complete grasp on them. they become especially expensive if you have a casual relationship w them.


to some, including me, the investment of time and money is worth it and it is probable to have a very high performance rotary FD that is quite reliable if you make the right decisions.

the first thing on your to do list will be to find out what actually is wrong w your motor and what caused it. it is pretty simple stuff once you get it apart.

BTW, do you have any recent logs? also, i would be very interested to see a copy of the map you are currently running.


good luck,

howard coleman

team_hirev

that sucks

2007 ZX-10

"to your horror" lol...another great post by Howard

maxg765

Hello,

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I do have one question though. You mentioned that you spent good money to have a proper rebuild with a warranty. A 5 year 60K miles warranty. You go on to say that you are at 41/2 and 15 miles. Are you not under the warranty period? I am not an expert on these cars and am only just getting mine delivered in two days, July 15th so i can't speak from experience but, I do own a 74 RX4 and did own a 1990 RX7 TII. I have been luck so far as the only and first issue I have ever had with my rotary's is my water pump just went on my RX4.
Still back to the warranty, what's the story. Now I know that no shop can comment till they get the engine into their hands but.....?

Regards

Max

trickshot

Someone tell me I'm wrong about this. Rebuilds just don't last as long as original engines, and original engines are problematic after 60k miles. (Although some go over 100k.)

I sympathize with you Stripling. Your experience would be enough to discourage me. After a certain point, who needs the headache?

2007 ZX-10

because there is nothing like the FD experience for less than $50k, after 10 years of ownership and sitting at 360 rwhp right now, I love the car more than ever and have an absolute blast with it on the weekends

trickshot

That means living on a knife-edge: IF, and that's a big IF.....IF you get it just right it can work and be reliable. There are other performance cars that don't require such a tightrope walk.

My car is running fine on its original engine and always has, so ownership of an FD has been easy and relaxed for me. But we hear so many stories like the one in this thread that I can't blame anyone for getting frustrated and not be willing to put up with the demands of FD ownership. Life is too short and there are other cars.

2007 ZX-10

as Howard indicated, the stock engine w/ stock turbos is essentially a time bomb

vacanyols

best of luck with everything. and I hope the shop can fix it up....

honestly making these engines run good... takes money.... but stock turbos take teir toll... like howard said... Im a fan of the good ol seq setup but its not the most reliable of all.

I hope everything goes well....

2007 ZX-10

and they all bore me, except for an Elise with a supercharger

dradon03

iTrader: (2)

I think part of the problem is while getting a rebuild mods are added etc etc. I have never seen someone get a rebuild and leave it at that.

I agree with Howard in respects to tuning being the key, the rotary engine is simple in its design and specifications. Tuning all areas of the map, on all loads however is rarely done and more often than not we hear stories of someone blowing an engine and saying " I wasn't even mashing it".

About the Fuel Economy, I think once Mazda can integrate DI in the next generation and maybe just maybe incorporate the 3rd spark plug the fuel economy of our engines should increase dramatically.

spandy

iTrader: (1)

Your car is just trying to tell you its wanting some power upgrades.

Sorry to hear bud. It's the nature of the beast. It is indeed the poor mans pure sports car, but when that phrase was coined I think they just meant anyone who can't afford a super car, not actual poor people.

I feel your pain. I still have days that I wish I would of brought home that 23k mile, MINT VR4, but those are ALWAYS on days that something didn't go my way in the garage and i'm just pissed at Christine (my 7, fitting name huh ).

Tim Benton

iTrader: (1)

I just saw that movie on TNT a couple night ago. I had forgotten Alexandra Paul was the chick in the film that had also been on Baywatch.

Tim

RotaryBred

don't let this get u down... i just blew 2 complete seals out while decellerating getting off an exit. my motor had only about 2000 miles on it with brand new housings. I have a gash the size of a quarter and about a 3/32" deep in the side of my front rotor and my brand new turbo is completely shot. i don't know what went wrong, my AFRs were still rich prior to this and i had my foot off the gas. now i need a rebuild, new housing, rotor with 3mm grooves and porting done AGAIN

Tim Benton

iTrader: (1)

^^you have a PFC to see if you have a high knock number?

Tim

trickshot

LOL! That isn't exactly a recommendation for happy FD ownership.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I can pretty much guarantee you if you actually blew an apex seal while puttering around a parking lot, it was caused by a piece of carbon breaking away from the rotor face. In your 4 1/2 yr history with the rebuild, it's not good to just baby these engines. All your doing is accelerating the carbon build-up process. When carbon forms it turns very powdery over time. If your going to let your car sit up like that, it is a must that you at least run it hard very once and a while and do the water seafoam at least once a year.

BADSVN2000

Ok so I feel for you too, I have just popped my 5th engine (5th in 9 years of owning 3 different RX7's), my scenario is a little different though as I purchased a second hand import engine with unknown kms but it ran smooth, didnt smoke and pulled really hard! I lunched my rear rotor and it looks like someone had thrown it in a blender from the amount of damage the apex seal did! One apex seal was missing the top half and the corner seal completely! **** happens man and with any car when you start modding them, they wont last as long as a stock one. Anyway myself and many others here feel your pain, rebuild it stronger, harder faster or sell it to someone on here!