you need to know about REFORMULATED OIL!!!!
#1
Racing Rotary Since 1983
Thread Starter
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you need to know about REFORMULATED OIL!!!!
the June issue of Hot Rod magazine (p 125) contains an article entitled: "When Good Cams Go Bad." while the report discusses an alarming 3 year trend in camshaft/lifter failures the significance of the primary culprit probably should be considered by all rotary owners. Anti wear is at least as important if not more so for the rotary.
a major engine builder is quoted as seeing more camshaft/lifter failures in the last 3 years than the prior 30.
while a number of reasons are considered one of the key conclusions is the recently reformulated standards for motor oil.
unfortunately i wasn't able to copy the article but here's an executive summary:
approx 4 years ago the auto manufactures, oil companies and the government (always bad to get them together) met to discuss an issue the regulators had re the effects of the PRIMARY ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVES in oil and their effects on catalytic convertor life.
the additives are primarily zinc and phosphorus (referred to as ZDDP) they act as sacrificial items and take the mechanical wear in lieu of the engines components.
due to the fact that todays motors use roller rockers the industry didn't need as much wear protection as in the past and capitulated.
the article features a table showing % of the 2 elements going from .13% in 1996 to .087 in 05 (Zinc) and .12 (Phosphorus) to .08 in 05.
rotary engines NEED these additives. the law going forward removes more ZDDP until there is almost no remaining ZDDP.
Racing Oil does not fall under the restrictions.
Quaker State Q Racing, for example, contains .2 of Z and .18 of P. Over the road trucks are exempt until 07. you can buy Shell Rotella T at Walmart (Truck oil) and it contains .14 and .13. Pennzoil Racing oil is .196 and .18.
i have used Mobil One since 1983 and will be checking w them tuesday to find out what the specs are.
you can tell which oils have reduced wear additives.... a Gold Starburst label and designation ILSAC GF-4. it is safe to conclude all non racing ex-trucks oils now fall into the no no category.
rotary owner had best steer clear of street legal oils.
another option is to add GM Camshaft and Lifter Prelube PN12345501 4 ounces about $6 at the time of your oil change.
i pass this info on, knowing it's importance to the rotary community and of course looking for additional input.
there is perhaps no subject w more written about it than oil. i hope that there will be no posts on this thread about loving some type of oil. let's focus on ZDDP and add additional info here as rotaries need all the antiwear they can get .
going forward i will make my choice of oils based on ZDDP content.
howard coleman
a major engine builder is quoted as seeing more camshaft/lifter failures in the last 3 years than the prior 30.
while a number of reasons are considered one of the key conclusions is the recently reformulated standards for motor oil.
unfortunately i wasn't able to copy the article but here's an executive summary:
approx 4 years ago the auto manufactures, oil companies and the government (always bad to get them together) met to discuss an issue the regulators had re the effects of the PRIMARY ANTI-WEAR ADDITIVES in oil and their effects on catalytic convertor life.
the additives are primarily zinc and phosphorus (referred to as ZDDP) they act as sacrificial items and take the mechanical wear in lieu of the engines components.
due to the fact that todays motors use roller rockers the industry didn't need as much wear protection as in the past and capitulated.
the article features a table showing % of the 2 elements going from .13% in 1996 to .087 in 05 (Zinc) and .12 (Phosphorus) to .08 in 05.
rotary engines NEED these additives. the law going forward removes more ZDDP until there is almost no remaining ZDDP.
Racing Oil does not fall under the restrictions.
Quaker State Q Racing, for example, contains .2 of Z and .18 of P. Over the road trucks are exempt until 07. you can buy Shell Rotella T at Walmart (Truck oil) and it contains .14 and .13. Pennzoil Racing oil is .196 and .18.
i have used Mobil One since 1983 and will be checking w them tuesday to find out what the specs are.
you can tell which oils have reduced wear additives.... a Gold Starburst label and designation ILSAC GF-4. it is safe to conclude all non racing ex-trucks oils now fall into the no no category.
rotary owner had best steer clear of street legal oils.
another option is to add GM Camshaft and Lifter Prelube PN12345501 4 ounces about $6 at the time of your oil change.
i pass this info on, knowing it's importance to the rotary community and of course looking for additional input.
there is perhaps no subject w more written about it than oil. i hope that there will be no posts on this thread about loving some type of oil. let's focus on ZDDP and add additional info here as rotaries need all the antiwear they can get .
going forward i will make my choice of oils based on ZDDP content.
howard coleman
#6
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we need most of our anti wear oils in the combustion chamber, correct? So If it really becomes a problem I forsee those adapter plates that let you inject 2 stroke oil into the combustion chamber becoming much more popular.
#7
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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I run Idetitsu in my FD, which is a synthetic specifically formulated for the 787B and the rotary engine. I only drive my FD on weekends, so the higher price isn't really an issue for me.
Thanks for the heads up Howard!
Thanks for the heads up Howard!
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#8
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Yeah, let us know what you find out about Mobil 1. I still prefer dino juice for my rotary, but I run Mobil 1 Extended Performance in my Jag V8 and I love it. It takes an already smooth engine and makes it super-smooth and rev happy. The claim is this oil can go as long as 15,000 miles without a change, and you would think that would be at odds with reduced anti-wear protection, but who knows what the reality is?
#10
2/4 wheel cornering fiend
Originally Posted by howard coleman
the additives are primarily zinc and phosphorus (referred to as ZDDP) they act as sacrificial items and take the mechanical wear in lieu of the engines components.
due to the fact that todays motors use roller rockers the industry didn't need as much wear protection as in the past and capitulated.
due to the fact that todays motors use roller rockers the industry didn't need as much wear protection as in the past and capitulated.
Calling them "anti-wear" is a slight misnomer; all oils are basically "anti-wear". A more accurate description is "extreme pressure" additive. Meaning where there is enough metal-to-metal pressure in a small enough gap that a sufficient oil film cannot be built up for protection, these additives are the last line of defense to prevent wear.
ZDDP is not the only anti-wear additive in many motor oils; there are some that include various molybdenum derivatives. However, moly is obviously a costly additive, so it's not nearly as commonly used as ZDDP.
Originally Posted by howard coleman
you can tell which oils have reduced wear additives.... a Gold Starburst label and designation ILSAC GF-4.
Originally Posted by howard coleman
another option is to add GM Camshaft and Lifter Prelube PN12345501 4 ounces about $6 at the time of your oil change.
I've always recommended against using the latest off-the-shelf oils because of the increasingly thinner/MPG-oriented API specs and standards.
Originally Posted by JTurtonRX_7
we need most of our anti wear oils in the combustion chamber, correct? So If it really becomes a problem I forsee those adapter plates that let you inject 2 stroke oil into the combustion chamber becoming much more popular.
Originally Posted by VegasFD
Interesting info. Nobody considers the rotaries when making decisions like this
#12
idemitsu supposedly has more molybendium than most other oils from this post from someone
"There is nothing special about Idemitsu. I've seen an oil test on it that shows what it is made of. The only thing it has on an oil like Royal Purple is that it contains unusually high levels of molybdenum. That is a lubricant but it also has a tendency to settle out and gum up in low spots. I'm not going to use it in a street car but if you guys are naive enough to actually believe that it is somehow formulated for a rotary while others aren't, more power to you. Ignornace is bliss.
Did it ever occur to anyone that since Idemitsu is a sponsor of Mazda's racing program and that Mazda engineers helped in the development of it that of course they would say it is rotary formulated? There's nothing special about it. It's all the same chemicals as other good oils being applied to a group IV PAO base stock. It's the base stock that makes it a "synthetic". Did you guys ever stop to think that if an independent company had formulated the exact same oil without Mazda there that Mazda probably wouldn't endorse it? They wouldn't! Shell oil pays nearly a quarter of a billion a year to Ferrari. Where do you think their F1 team and Michael Schumacher get all of their money from? Shell Oil! Does this mean that Shell oil that is "specially formulated" for Ferrari is somehow special compared to others? I think not. Idemitsu is basically more expensive Royal Purple or any other good synthetic. There is no advantage to it. It's marketing and you guys believe it. It's not a bad oil by any means. It's good stuff. There is just nothing special about it. "-rotarygod
"There is nothing special about Idemitsu. I've seen an oil test on it that shows what it is made of. The only thing it has on an oil like Royal Purple is that it contains unusually high levels of molybdenum. That is a lubricant but it also has a tendency to settle out and gum up in low spots. I'm not going to use it in a street car but if you guys are naive enough to actually believe that it is somehow formulated for a rotary while others aren't, more power to you. Ignornace is bliss.
Did it ever occur to anyone that since Idemitsu is a sponsor of Mazda's racing program and that Mazda engineers helped in the development of it that of course they would say it is rotary formulated? There's nothing special about it. It's all the same chemicals as other good oils being applied to a group IV PAO base stock. It's the base stock that makes it a "synthetic". Did you guys ever stop to think that if an independent company had formulated the exact same oil without Mazda there that Mazda probably wouldn't endorse it? They wouldn't! Shell oil pays nearly a quarter of a billion a year to Ferrari. Where do you think their F1 team and Michael Schumacher get all of their money from? Shell Oil! Does this mean that Shell oil that is "specially formulated" for Ferrari is somehow special compared to others? I think not. Idemitsu is basically more expensive Royal Purple or any other good synthetic. There is no advantage to it. It's marketing and you guys believe it. It's not a bad oil by any means. It's good stuff. There is just nothing special about it. "-rotarygod