CLR Motorsports engine is in and running!
04-07-05, 03:47 PM
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CLR Motorsports engine is in and running!
I took the plunge a few weeks ago after talking with Carlos Lopez at CLR Motorsports about a 20B project I had envisioned. My two rotor Cosmo was on the way out so I went ahead and yanked it to avoid grenading the motor completely. After tearing down the motor, I headed over to CLR in Miami to show Carlos the parts and get opinions/facts on what went wrong with the engine. I had been using 2mm 2 piece Atkins seals with the RE/REW (9.0:1) rotors, used but mint housings and my own porting. I had someone else clearance all the parts. Carlos took the time to go through each of the engine parts piece by piece pointing out what was good (my secondary port job) and what was bad (everything else!!!).
With that we sat down and formulated an engine building plan to fit my budget. Now I am no newbie but two things became abundantly clear. The first was just how little I know about rotary engines, even after all these years. Two, I was going to exceed my budget by a substantial amount. I will cut to the chase, the extra expense was well worth it. Carlos Lopez is an incredible engine builder with decades of professional level work under his belt. His engine building abilities are second to none. Anyone can build a rotary engine. Some people can build decent rotary engines. Few can build an engine that will pull nines on all faces, front and rear. I went to CLR based on their reputation and the fact I was tired of paying for half *** knowledge and ok engines. I wanted someone with real racing experience and a professional resume. We all know how many engine builders there are like that in the country. Maybe five? And out of those five, how many do we have realistic access to? Maybe two including CLR. Now one can always call up Rick Engman and see if he will build you an engine but dont hold your breath!
In essence, what I had CLR build was a top notch road race engine with all the bells/whistles save one modification to the crank that I really did not need due to the cars (apostrophe key broken) intended usage, track days and the grind of street driving. The list of modifications is long;
lightened rotors
port phasing (scalloped rotors)
clearanced
static balance
3mm apex seal groove modification (3mm Mazda seals)
bearing deep oil groove modification
Viton o rings
eccentric shaft race preparation
oil jet turbo mod
match port
exhaust port
side housing resurface
oil mods
cooling mods
etc....
Pretty much everything is new except for a few bearings which were in mint condition. The engine flows enough air for 600 rear wheel hp. Remember, its a street port!
The rotors in question are low compression rotors, lightened to 93+ spec (lowest allowable weight) and dynamically balanced. Their lower compression ratio will allow for much higher sustained boost levels on pump gas and an extra margin of safety, especially along with the 3mm seals.
I needed a new rear plate and Carlos sourced me a new unit at cost and port matched the secondaries and did his own port job on the primaries since I had left them fairly untouched. All the porting and engine assembly was done by Carlos personally, not by an understudy or someone with limited rotary building experience. About sixty hours are spent on an engine assembly. No kidding.
There are a distinct lack of rotorheads in my vicinity and as such, I had to install the engine myself, sans air tools or someone to help. I dressed the engine fully before installation, something I spent two days doing. I believe I spent about $100 on new nuts/bolts/washers alone for the entire turbo system. My GT4082 was upgraded to a GT4088 compressor curtesey of A Spec Tuning and Majestic Turbo. Hot side is a .94. I am in no way shooting for 600 at the wheels but a more friendly, broad powerband with a killer midrange.
Carlos can not only port and build, but he is an exceptional tuner as well. I had several calls from him personally while I was going through the installation process and again while I was/am tuning and breaking in the new motor. We are using a few unique tricks to help with turbo spool, bottom end and to counter any side effects of lower compression rotors. For the record, the engine felt no less lazy than with high compression rotors. We are running seriously negative split in the vacuum areas to increase EGT and spool the turbo. While I am keeping out of boost for at least a few hundred miles, the turbo spools even while in vacuum. It is audible. It makes my hair stand on end
Another trick (which does work) is the use of the double throttle bodies to force all air through the primaries until a predetermined boost point. We have yet to figure out what that point is as of yet. But at say 2 or 3psi, they will be slammed open. Bottom end response is greatly improved and the car accelerates much more quickly as a result. I will have a full writeup once I have the system up and running. It is quite simple and not overly complicated.
I did manage to install the engine myself, not without a few hiccups along the way. I somehow forgot to turn the Exedy clutch disk the correct way and had to remove the engine, flip the disk, and reinsert the engine (was easier at the time than pulling the transmission). Somehow, along the way I also managed to damage my Fluidyne AND my A/C condenser. But thanks to forum members, I was able to acquire less expensive (than new) replacement parts. That damn coolant buzzer will not stop. I believe I tweaked the wire somewhere in the harness as all the appropriate plugs are well, plugged! I disabled the buzzer to save my sanity.
Once installed, I carefully primed the oil system per CLR instructions. I also kept the turbo from spinning during startup. Amazingly she fired right up and after a bit of tweaking via the Datalogit, she idled smoothly. All was not perfect with the initial tune, but Carlos has straightened me out and pointed me in the right direction. He has been invaluable. I chose to run 850cc primaries which can be problematic but I think I have my solution and they should be perfect.
I am going to take my time tuning the engine and then probably have CLR do the final tune. With a really bad tune, it will not matter who built your engine.
I spent quite a bit of money on this engine. Just to build the engine costs $1,500. Experience is not free and CLRs experience is well worth the entry price. All told, the bill was about $5K not including the cost of two low comp turbo II rotors and new housings. While that sounds expensive, there is another forum member with a CLR built engine who is making 490 to the rear wheels (pump gas), tracks the car in hot Florida on a regular basis (once a month that I see because I am at the same events) and has made over 180 pulls on the dyno with the same engine. I believe his engine is about 3 years old at this point. I have been through two engines in about the same amount of time. Figure in the cost of building each one of those average engines and the cost doesnt seem to be unreasonable. Not to mention the fact that those engines had none of the prep and technology of my current engine. I am just very very happy with the engine, support and also because I did it right. The way it should be done without skimping. I think if more of us did this, the rotary engine would not seems as unreliable as everyone makes it out to be.
One of the reasons I went with the modified bits is due to the weak 93+ rotors. They are quite thin, can twist and melt easily, and are generally perceived to be a major weak link at about 400rwhp. There is too little fudge factor with them on pump to be a good idea according to CLR. Carlos had several rotors cut lengthwise showing the difference in casting thickness. It was fairly apparent that the 93+ rotors had the lowest build quality. Wall thickess was not very uniform and generally speaking, the rotor weights for any given REW motor are pretty far off.
I am now driving the car on a daily basis, tuning vacuum portions of the map and getting miles on the engine. It is already quite warm down here in Florida (80 degrees plus F). With certain modifications made to the engine/cooling system, the car can run at a PFC indicated 79 degrees celsius depending on where I set the fans. I have bumped them up to 82 where the car seems to stay.
Anyway, I am sure I will have more to post as the engine is run in a bit more and we start tuning on boost. I personally cannot wait! It will be great to have the car back in its full, bad *** form once again!
With that we sat down and formulated an engine building plan to fit my budget. Now I am no newbie but two things became abundantly clear. The first was just how little I know about rotary engines, even after all these years. Two, I was going to exceed my budget by a substantial amount. I will cut to the chase, the extra expense was well worth it. Carlos Lopez is an incredible engine builder with decades of professional level work under his belt. His engine building abilities are second to none. Anyone can build a rotary engine. Some people can build decent rotary engines. Few can build an engine that will pull nines on all faces, front and rear. I went to CLR based on their reputation and the fact I was tired of paying for half *** knowledge and ok engines. I wanted someone with real racing experience and a professional resume. We all know how many engine builders there are like that in the country. Maybe five? And out of those five, how many do we have realistic access to? Maybe two including CLR. Now one can always call up Rick Engman and see if he will build you an engine but dont hold your breath!
In essence, what I had CLR build was a top notch road race engine with all the bells/whistles save one modification to the crank that I really did not need due to the cars (apostrophe key broken) intended usage, track days and the grind of street driving. The list of modifications is long;
lightened rotors
port phasing (scalloped rotors)
clearanced
static balance
3mm apex seal groove modification (3mm Mazda seals)
bearing deep oil groove modification
Viton o rings
eccentric shaft race preparation
oil jet turbo mod
match port
exhaust port
side housing resurface
oil mods
cooling mods
etc....
Pretty much everything is new except for a few bearings which were in mint condition. The engine flows enough air for 600 rear wheel hp. Remember, its a street port!
The rotors in question are low compression rotors, lightened to 93+ spec (lowest allowable weight) and dynamically balanced. Their lower compression ratio will allow for much higher sustained boost levels on pump gas and an extra margin of safety, especially along with the 3mm seals.
I needed a new rear plate and Carlos sourced me a new unit at cost and port matched the secondaries and did his own port job on the primaries since I had left them fairly untouched. All the porting and engine assembly was done by Carlos personally, not by an understudy or someone with limited rotary building experience. About sixty hours are spent on an engine assembly. No kidding.
There are a distinct lack of rotorheads in my vicinity and as such, I had to install the engine myself, sans air tools or someone to help. I dressed the engine fully before installation, something I spent two days doing. I believe I spent about $100 on new nuts/bolts/washers alone for the entire turbo system. My GT4082 was upgraded to a GT4088 compressor curtesey of A Spec Tuning and Majestic Turbo. Hot side is a .94. I am in no way shooting for 600 at the wheels but a more friendly, broad powerband with a killer midrange.
Carlos can not only port and build, but he is an exceptional tuner as well. I had several calls from him personally while I was going through the installation process and again while I was/am tuning and breaking in the new motor. We are using a few unique tricks to help with turbo spool, bottom end and to counter any side effects of lower compression rotors. For the record, the engine felt no less lazy than with high compression rotors. We are running seriously negative split in the vacuum areas to increase EGT and spool the turbo. While I am keeping out of boost for at least a few hundred miles, the turbo spools even while in vacuum. It is audible. It makes my hair stand on end
Another trick (which does work) is the use of the double throttle bodies to force all air through the primaries until a predetermined boost point. We have yet to figure out what that point is as of yet. But at say 2 or 3psi, they will be slammed open. Bottom end response is greatly improved and the car accelerates much more quickly as a result. I will have a full writeup once I have the system up and running. It is quite simple and not overly complicated.
I did manage to install the engine myself, not without a few hiccups along the way. I somehow forgot to turn the Exedy clutch disk the correct way and had to remove the engine, flip the disk, and reinsert the engine (was easier at the time than pulling the transmission). Somehow, along the way I also managed to damage my Fluidyne AND my A/C condenser. But thanks to forum members, I was able to acquire less expensive (than new) replacement parts. That damn coolant buzzer will not stop. I believe I tweaked the wire somewhere in the harness as all the appropriate plugs are well, plugged! I disabled the buzzer to save my sanity.
Once installed, I carefully primed the oil system per CLR instructions. I also kept the turbo from spinning during startup. Amazingly she fired right up and after a bit of tweaking via the Datalogit, she idled smoothly. All was not perfect with the initial tune, but Carlos has straightened me out and pointed me in the right direction. He has been invaluable. I chose to run 850cc primaries which can be problematic but I think I have my solution and they should be perfect.
I am going to take my time tuning the engine and then probably have CLR do the final tune. With a really bad tune, it will not matter who built your engine.
I spent quite a bit of money on this engine. Just to build the engine costs $1,500. Experience is not free and CLRs experience is well worth the entry price. All told, the bill was about $5K not including the cost of two low comp turbo II rotors and new housings. While that sounds expensive, there is another forum member with a CLR built engine who is making 490 to the rear wheels (pump gas), tracks the car in hot Florida on a regular basis (once a month that I see because I am at the same events) and has made over 180 pulls on the dyno with the same engine. I believe his engine is about 3 years old at this point. I have been through two engines in about the same amount of time. Figure in the cost of building each one of those average engines and the cost doesnt seem to be unreasonable. Not to mention the fact that those engines had none of the prep and technology of my current engine. I am just very very happy with the engine, support and also because I did it right. The way it should be done without skimping. I think if more of us did this, the rotary engine would not seems as unreliable as everyone makes it out to be.
One of the reasons I went with the modified bits is due to the weak 93+ rotors. They are quite thin, can twist and melt easily, and are generally perceived to be a major weak link at about 400rwhp. There is too little fudge factor with them on pump to be a good idea according to CLR. Carlos had several rotors cut lengthwise showing the difference in casting thickness. It was fairly apparent that the 93+ rotors had the lowest build quality. Wall thickess was not very uniform and generally speaking, the rotor weights for any given REW motor are pretty far off.
I am now driving the car on a daily basis, tuning vacuum portions of the map and getting miles on the engine. It is already quite warm down here in Florida (80 degrees plus F). With certain modifications made to the engine/cooling system, the car can run at a PFC indicated 79 degrees celsius depending on where I set the fans. I have bumped them up to 82 where the car seems to stay.
Anyway, I am sure I will have more to post as the engine is run in a bit more and we start tuning on boost. I personally cannot wait! It will be great to have the car back in its full, bad *** form once again!
04-07-05, 03:49 PM
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Here are the rotors used by CLR. They are posted elsewhere but it is convenient to have them here for reference and to give an idea as to the prep which goes into all of their engines.
04-07-05, 04:13 PM
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It is a 13B RE two rotor Cosmo. Sorry bout that...I have put the 20B thing on back order for a while...I had planned on doing a half *** rebuild to last me a few months and just couldnt bring myself to do it again. I really wanted to experience the power of a well built and tuned 13B before moving on to a 20B. I am just one of those people who is always asking what if and cant leave well enough alone 
I can remember the day I hit 1,000 posts a few years ago...I have since slowed down a bit more and I have done a lot more *listening* No slam at you RXHeaven, just a personal thing for me.
I can remember the day I hit 1,000 posts a few years ago...I have since slowed down a bit more and I have done a lot more *listening*
No slam at you RXHeaven, just a personal thing for me.
04-07-05, 04:47 PM
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first off congrats! engine flows enough air for 600 rear wheel hp. Remember, its a street port! DAMM!
i've read all about the lightened rotors in the other thread, but always wondered why u used tii rotors, now i know thanks for the info. My question is why u used an re motor instead of the 93+ rew motor? can u expand on the negative split for turbo spool and egt's?
i cant wait for ur writeup on the double throttle bodies.
i've read all about the lightened rotors in the other thread, but always wondered why u used tii rotors, now i know thanks for the info. My question is why u used an re motor instead of the 93+ rew motor? can u expand on the negative split for turbo spool and egt's?
i cant wait for ur writeup on the double throttle bodies.
Last edited by bolo_fd; 04-07-05 at 04:49 PM.
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04-07-05, 06:50 PM
#11
congratulations on what sounds like a killer motor! hope to see some progress updates on tuning and performance. also, post some more pics, if you don't mind.
this is the second time i've heard a raving review of CLR Motorsports and their work. i'm very inclined to check them out someday. thanks.
1
this is the second time i've heard a raving review of CLR Motorsports and their work. i'm very inclined to check them out someday. thanks.
1
04-07-05, 07:56 PM
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I'll try and post a few images. I have a few work in progress images of the porting, etc...
I originally went with the Cosmo due to the larger port size over the REW motor. I upgraded the stationary gears to the hardened REW units so other than the ports, there were no differences in the internals (RE vs. REW) after I modified everything.
As far as the negative split, this is only for use in the VACUUM range of the map. If you take into an account the sweeping motion of the rotor, as air/fuel enters the "chamber", the motion of the rotor pushes all the air/fuel to the top of the rotor. By using large negative split, you create a slow burn by firing off the trailing first which pushes the fuel towards the leading plug and when that goes off, bam! I'll post a picture of my timing maps once I get everything finalized so everyone can see exactly what I've done (with CLR's help!). I am running large negative split right now and there is no knock created by this effect.
I originally went with the Cosmo due to the larger port size over the REW motor. I upgraded the stationary gears to the hardened REW units so other than the ports, there were no differences in the internals (RE vs. REW) after I modified everything.
As far as the negative split, this is only for use in the VACUUM range of the map. If you take into an account the sweeping motion of the rotor, as air/fuel enters the "chamber", the motion of the rotor pushes all the air/fuel to the top of the rotor. By using large negative split, you create a slow burn by firing off the trailing first which pushes the fuel towards the leading plug and when that goes off, bam! I'll post a picture of my timing maps once I get everything finalized so everyone can see exactly what I've done (with CLR's help!). I am running large negative split right now and there is no knock created by this effect.
04-08-05, 04:29 AM
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hey Mitch, i was reading your post and its awsome to hear that your motor is in and running already. i had asked carlos about your motor about a week ago. I know that motor is going to make some serious power. I hope you enjoy it to the fullest. i have mine at his shop now. i pulled mine out after the february event at moroso to do the rotor mods which i had not done yet along with a light aluminum flywheel. when i originally built the car i never thought i would end up tracking it and about 3 years ago this technology was just to be put out as carlos stated. so now im doing the oil mods, clearancing, lightening, scalops and shaft mods. Ill let you know how it turns out when im done. Hope to see you at the next events. looks like it will be late May for me.
Laters
Rob
Laters
Rob
04-08-05, 09:18 AM
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Port phasing is the term he uses for the scalloped rotors (my term at the time for lack of a better description!). The way CLR does it provides an additional 140 degrees of intake port exposure over regular rotors. That is quite a bit! In a nutshell, it allows a much easier path for the air to enter the rotor housing and for a longer period of time (hence the phasing name).
Using a Power FC and Datalogit system with an integrated Innovative wide band 02.
I know Carlos is out of the country until some time next week. His number is 305.970.1774. I would give him a call mid next week.
Rob! I am sure the new engine will be even nicer than your current engine! I will be at Moroso on Saturday unfortunately...the worst track (at least the worst run track) of the three by far. I cannot stand the management there. Complete morons. I will be glad to get back to Sebring and Homestead.
Michel
Using a Power FC and Datalogit system with an integrated Innovative wide band 02.
I know Carlos is out of the country until some time next week. His number is 305.970.1774. I would give him a call mid next week.
Rob! I am sure the new engine will be even nicer than your current engine! I will be at Moroso on Saturday unfortunately...the worst track (at least the worst run track) of the three by far. I cannot stand the management there. Complete morons. I will be glad to get back to Sebring and Homestead.
Michel
04-08-05, 11:46 AM
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clrotary@bellsouth.net is his e-mail and yes, he is gt1 20B on the forum.
Michel
Michel
04-08-05, 04:06 PM
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From what I've been told, it does not. The CR is determined by the bathtub area. FWIW, I do not notice any decrease in responsiveness in off-boost situations.
Michel
Michel
04-08-05, 04:29 PM
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it does reduce effective compression because air and fuel get trapped there and are not exposed to the plugs. that a/f charge just goes out the exhaust unburned. it'll reduce dynamic compression and increase bsfc.
