ChrisR90

First of all I am very new to this and I figured the best way to learn is to throw myself into fire right away. What better way to do this than a swap. So I'm trying to gather as much info as possible in the next few months as I prepare for a swap into my car. I have an 85 GSL and am planning on doing a 13b re swap. I've done some searching and I am finding plenty on the T2 swap but not so much for an re. I found a few threads out there with helpful info but my questions weren't all answered. What will I need to get in order to even begin this swap? I have found plenty of info for the turbo2 swap and was wondering if it is pretty much the same stuff needed for the swap to even go insince they are both 13b. Here is the list I found for the t2

GSL-SE Front Cover
GSL-SE Oil Pan
GSL-SE Engine Mounts
GSL-SE Fuel Line Pick Up (EFI)
GSL-SE Fuel Injectors (good for primaries)
GSL-SE Engine Mounts
GSL-SE Radiator (3 core)
GSL-SE Air Cooled Oil Cooler (mounted under the Radiator)

I know this swap is gonna be expensive and I am ok with that. This is a major learning experience for me, so I am fully aware of the headaches that are gonna come as well.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

You are certainly headed in the right direction. Think about the drivetrain as well. What transmission are you planning?

The 13B-RE only comes as an auto, so you will either need a Series 5 T2/NA flywheel, or a lightweight flywheel.

The GSLSE primary injectors are "ok" to start, but they are low impedance and will need resistors. You will need a standalone to run the RE, so you may as well just get some better primary high impedance injectors. You can run 13BT injectors, or just get some ID725s.

The GSLSE front cover and oil pan do not come with provisions for turbo drain, so you will need to drill a bung into wither of those parts.

The 13BRE is a twin turbo, so you will either have to change them to non-sequential or just go with a single turbo. A popular turbo is a GT3582R or a BW8374 EFR.

The GSLSE fuel line pickup has to do with the tank itself. Inside the SE tank is a baffle around the pickup that is not there on the GSL. Either find an SE tank, or run a swirl pot. I personally do not recommend welding a fuel tank for reasons of extreme danger. If that is your only option. Find someone to do it professionally.

You can run a GSLSE radiator, OR find a universal radiator through summit that is thicker and all aluminum. You can pick up a Griffin rad for reasonably cheap and it will probably outdo a GSLSE drop in. Probably.

You can get any 13B oil cooler, not just a GSLSE. So a S4/S5 cooler will be fine. They can be had for a decent price. All second gen oil coolers are the same. Regardless of turbo or not. You will be upgrading the lines to stainless braided or teflon lined anyways (I hope)

You dont need to worry about getting a different engine mount. The 12A mount is functionally the same. Just slot the bolt holes 10mm toward the rear of the car. The 12A rubber mounts are the same as GSLSE units as well, but you will want to go with comp. mounts.

I'm not going to tell you how to live your life, but I would get a T2 instead if I were you. You can get a whole T2 engine, trans, harness, and ECU for between $1000-1500.

A 13B-RE for JUST the engine, is about $1500-1800. You lose on the price and the engines are really quite similar. Parts are easier to get for the T2 in general. You can swing through a napa and pick up gaskets and the like. You ask about Cosmo parts and they look at you as if you have three heads.

Your post reminds me of a much younger me. I bought my forst 1985 GSL back in high school and I was planning on a T2 swap when I had the money. Plans changed when some bitch in a Ford Explorer rear-ended and totaled my baby. I look forward to your progress, and if you need any further help, the collective forum is here to help and guide you.

Regards, Ian

Evil Aviator

Are you sure the 12A mounts will work with the 13B-RE Cosmo mounts? While the rubber mounts should work fine, I'm thinking he is going to need custom brackets.

Well, I'm probably forgetting some things, but here goes:
- Standalone EMS and professional tuning (Find a local tuner FIRST before buying anything!)
- Ignition Coils and Igniters that are compatible with whichever EMS you will be using
- Maybe a 60-2 trigger wheel depending on the EMS
- Maybe a boost sensor if the EMS doesn't have one on-board
- Fuel Injectors that are compatible with whichever EMS you will be using
- EFI Fuel Pump
- EFI Fuel Filter(s)
- EFI High-Pressure Fuel Lines (rubber lines, metal lines, clamps, fittings, hangars)
- EFI Fuel Pressure Regulator (recommend Aeromotive or SX brands)
- EFI Fuel Rails (the 13B-RE rails should work if you have them)
- Flywheel
- Upgraded Clutch Pack
- Air Filter
- Custom Downpipe

Optional
- Boost Gauge
- AFR Gauge
- Fuel Cell
- Surge Tank
- Intercooler and custom plumbing
- Upgraded transmission
- Blowoff valve
- Proper exhaust system (your current system will work, but will be extremely restrictive)
- Aftermarket Turbo, Custom Manifold, and maybe an Aftermarket Wastegate if the turbo does not have an internal wastegate.

You are looking at $10-30K for this project. The man-hours will depend on your skills, tools, and facilities available.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

The FB uses the front cover to mount the engine in the car. There is a bar that bolts to the cover and then has rubber mounts that affix it to the subframe. So, yes. the 12A rubbers and metal bracket are fine provided the mounting bracket is slotted 10mm to the rear.



You can see in this photo how the FB mounts work.

Evil Aviator

Ah, I see. I owned an 84 many years ago but I never worked on the engine. Thanks for the clarification.

ChrisR90

That post was ridiculously helpful. As I said I will be doing a lot of digging and research for the next few months. I will definitely look into the t2 swap as well as you advised. The parts being found is definitely gonna be something I can use considering I know I will mess up quite a bit. My main inspiration so to say for the RE is my stepdads fd, but he definitely has a hand up on me when it comes to experience and knowledge, so the T2 is gonna take a lot of my research the next few days. As of right now Im just going to start collecting parts to get a 13b in the car anyways. How much do you think a completion of each would be? I have seen about 8-10k for the RE but haven't looked yet for the T2.

Any info helps of course thanks a lot for the insight.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

No problem. Take your time and do lots of research. It really saves when you are able to do stuff on your own.

Ok, to address you cost estimate. This is where it gets tricky, so I will lay it out in stages.

Turbo 2 Swap:

1:Source yourself a JDM or USDM Drivetrain, so thats engine, trans, harness ECU

Gonna be between $1000-2000 for the whole lot, depending on seller, shipping, etc.

2:Radiator and oil cooler. New aluminum unit can range between $180-400 for the rad. Go with a reputable brand, or a universal Griffin unit (as an example)
Oil coolers are fairly cheap. Anywhere from $40-100. Hell, try a wrecking yard. GET IT CLEANED AT A TRANS SHOP!!! Just spraying cleaner inside isn't enough. You want a hot oil flush. Something like this Hot Flush - Aerospace

3:Clutch, master cylinder, slave cylinder, hoses, fluid

This is what can break the bank. OE clutches can be had for around $200 all the way up to $400 for a nice strong aftermarket. This stuff may not be needed, but I'm unsure if the 12A clutch throw is the same as the T2 off the top of my head.

You can use the 12A transmission, but the T2 flywheel and clutch only works with a T2 transmission last I read. Basically, everything from the flywheel back has to match. The 12A flywheel is not compatible with a 13B. The counterweight is built into the flywheel. So, a auto counterweight with a 12A lightweight flywheel "could" work, but go T2 swap. The 12A trans is made of glass at that power level. There are threads on how to put the 12A extension housing on a T2 trans so that the shifter lines up.

4: Swap parts. This is your oil pan, front cover, mounts, etc. This is a mixed bag because you can sometimes find people just giving this stuff away. I'm going to throw down $600 as a guess. The number is high because you will need a custom driveshaft. Sometimes they crop up for cheap, but expect $400 for a custom unit. Also factor in ignition components here, like coils and wires. You can find FC coils for cheap. The leading and trailing coils are the same both turbo and NA.

5: Misc. bullshit. This is the stuff EVERYONE forgets about. The hoses, fluids, nuts, bolts, gaskets, little doo-dads, and thingamabobs. I'm going to lump the exhaust fab into here as well. The T2 downpipe doesn't line up and the piping on the 12A is just too damn small. This is the nickel and dime stuff that murders builds. As low as $200-1000!


So a total cost of about $3200-4500. It depends on if the harness, ecu, injectors and such are any good. Depends on if you go standalone. Also depends on if the engine you source is any good. Most EBay, JDM import, back alley deal engines are trash and need a rebuild at the minimum. So, the price could go up by another $1000-3000 depending on various things.


You are not far off on the RE. The RE is same as above, but you must run a standalone PCM. I believe that an S5 turbo ECU could be used with a S5 turbo harness, but then you are dealing with 25+ year old wiring. So add about $1500 for a standalone, harness, and sensors.

The cost of entry into an RE is minimum $1500 for the engine only. No guarantees if its any good, so figure another $1500-3000 for a rebuild.

The RE only came as auto, so you would need to find either an S5 flywheel, or get a lightweight flywheel (not recommended).

Then you would still need to source a transmission and the like.

Then comes the turbos. The RE turbos are sequential twins and I dont think that they would fit under the hood of an FB, nor between the struts. So you have to go aftermarket turbo. I'm sure you could cobble something together, like an S5 turbo setup off a T2, but now you just have a glorified S5 T2 for much more than the cost of entry had you gone with a T2. SO figure $400 for a T2 turbo setup.

Or you could go bigger aftermarket. A GT3582R is a popular choice on almost any 13B. Figure $3500-4000 for a full kit. YOu can get it cheaper, but this is the ball park. Front mounts are also kinda sorta factored in. They can be around $400-1000.


I'm gonna put the 13BRE sway at closer to $10k, honestly as an estimate. This is factoring a ton of stuff, but there are so many variables with an RE compared to a T2.

I know I'm missing tons of stuff and I know you want to have an idea, but I have learned to never add up how much you spend on a project. You will only cry. Thats why I have been pitching my receipts when I get them. Receipts are evidence. Evidence gets you in court. OJ went to court. Lack of evidence got him off. Be like OJ. No evidence......well, you know what I mean

Evil Aviator

Is about 200hp OK, or will the car need more power? This is an important question because things will start to get more expensive after this point.

ChrisR90

This is interesting info. Basically looking at half of the price for the t2 compared to the RE. That added with the availability of parts as you mentioned before changes a lot. I May just go t2
for now and eventually go re when I have the experience and a better knowledge around
rotaries.

It seems like the T2 transmission is the way to go regardless of which engine as well. That and the swap parts. Time to start hoarding the common parts that I know I'll need.

ChrisR90

I will probably keep it stock for a bit once the swap is complete to work on the exterior for a bit but then eventually get back to power. I want about 350 hp or so In the end game. I know how to get that on a piston engine but I don't even know how 200 will feel on the fb compared to my heavy *** WRX.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

200 whp is a rocket ship in an FB. Buddy of mine back in high school had a street ported 84 GS with a dellorto side draft setup and a full racing beat exhaust. Thing hauled serious *** and it got his license suspended. Never figured out how much power it actually made, but the teenage butt-dyno said 150-170hp

Evil Aviator

That will make it easier and cheaper initially. A 13BT engine from a T2 will make 200hp with just basic external modifications that will probably be required for the swap anyway. As long as you keep it at this level your drivetrain should be OK, although the clutch should be upgraded slightly to keep from slipping. The Exedy and ACT catalogs list the torque rating of their clutches, so if this is a street car I would recommend the least-extreme clutch that will handle 200 lb-ft torque.

At 350hp the engine is likely to break your transmission and/or axle, but that depends on how you drive the car. I'm sure the 1Gen guys can give you good advice on how to upgrade the drivetrain before you go this route. Anyway, if 350hp is all you need for the end game, then there is no point in going with the 13B-RE, as the cheaper and easier 13BT will easily reach this goal with a low-budget BNR hybrid turbo upgrade and supporting modifications.

See the below website on upgrading a 13BT engine. However, this site is old, so the FCD listed in the mods is obsolete now that the Rtek chip is available for the stock EMS. Also, standalone EMS units are pretty affordable now, so if you have a local tuner this may be a better way to go, and that way you don't need to worry about fuel cut or recirculating the compressor bypass valve, not to mention crusty old wiring, failing overpriced Mazda sensors, etc.
FC3S Pro v2.0:Â* From Mild 2 Wild - Power

It should do 0-60 in about 5.5 seconds at stock weight, and down to the low 4s if you strip the car.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I was actually going to recommend FC3SPro, thanks for getting that posted.

ChrisR90

Ive been reading a lot on that site actually. They really explain a lot without having to search for stuff. What I'll probably do is stay mostly stock for a while then. Mostly stock meaning if I find better alternatives to some parts then I'll go with those.

DWNUNDR

iTrader: (1)

I am doing this swap right now.. this picture looks like it has factory mounts..

How exactly was it setup? what pan is being used...

does the engine sit flat or is it tilted?

Im trying to avoid buying a bunch of parts to replace what is already on it.. (budget - boss wasnt happy I dropped a chunk of change on this setup but Ive been waiting for 10yrs for almost this exact setup) with trans.. complete fd drop in setup thats getting shoved into my fb

I am thinking I may just cut and weld the pan to avoid the steering arm (main crossbar thing) and maybe cut and shut the crossmember adding some support in front for strength...

Im not so worried about the welding and metal work as I work as a machinist, went thru weld school and work in a shop that has any pc of equipment I would need to make it work.. just trying to make sure it is reasonable..

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

That picture does have factory mounts. Factory 13B GSLSE mounts. The engine sits level with no tilt, but is justified to the passenger side slightly, like almost all RX7 engines are mounted.

The way it should be done, IMO, is to get a FB 13B oil pan. You can pick them up used, or I believe there are new ones out there. You get yourself a 13B or a 12A front timing cover and put that on with the old 13B oil pan. Use the front crossmember mount and for the turbo drain, you can drill and tap a hole in the front cover or go to the oil pan.

The FD setup is not drop in by any stretch at all. The FD trans uses a power plant frame, so you will need to make a crossmember for the rear of the trans. The shifter will need to be moved forward. The driveshaft will likely need to be custom with a FD trans, but I am not entirely sure.

There are literally dozens of threads on this type of swap. Going to an older cover will also necessitate the use of a FC CAS or a FFE style trigger setup. I don't think a factory FD ecu can handle an older CAS, but in this kind of swap you should be going standalone anyways.


Another alternative, which is better IMO, is to get the front subframe off of an FC with the four piston front brakes. You can also get the base brakes with the GSLSE lug pattern and get a GSLSE rear end to match. Going to an FC front allows you to use rack and pinion, but the mounting of the subframe is a little bit of a project in it's own right. There are writeups on this as well. In that case, you can either weld a rear crossmember to the subframe and use that for the stock FD mounts, you can buy a FD to FC mount swap which is a U-shaped mount that bolts to the rear iron and goes forward to meet the FC mounting points, or you can swap to an FC pan and front cover and drill and tap the center iron for the passenger side mount.

The FD oil pan is notorious for leaking, so I would make sure to read up on what other users have done to cure leaks. Usually they will scuff the pan and mounting surface with a scotch-brite pad and use Right Stuff as a silicone. I go with Toyota FIPG Black which has never failed me. You make sure the faces are bone dry and wiped down with alcohol before you apply silicone. You torque the bolts from inside out and install the mounts and torque them. Let it sit for a overnight to cure, which is easy in the middle of a build, then add oil. The pans generally leak at the rear around the mounts.

DWNUNDR

iTrader: (1)

thanks for the info... the car I have is an 85gsl-se.. sadly I pulled the engine and trans over 10 yrs ago and it is long gone to the guy I got the car from for other parts for the wrx I had at the time

your suggestions are a little more money and work than I planned on doing with fc subframes etc...

The setup I have is a whole drop in package from an fd with haltec standalone... basically pulled form an fd running and dropping into my fb with whatever mods.. being on a budget.. which was blown buying this motor... I hope to do what I can with what I have.. granted I may seriously rethink the front cover/pan/and mount direction...

I may try to find a gsl-se pan and make custom mounts.. I have some ideas... just researching adn lining everything up in the thick skull..

being as this will be a fun car and not an everyday driver Im not going all out on having everything perfectly setup... my goal is.. running, respray and go thru safety (ie suspension and brakes)

thanks again.. will keep reading and taking notes

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Get a GSLSE pan. Get any 12A or 13B front mount, they are out there, and get a 12A or 13B front cover.

Do it correctly, or you will regret it down the road. There is zero excuse to do a swap half-assed, especially when the resources and parts are there. I get that it's more money, but any swap you get into is going to usually cost close to double what the engine cost you.

I have seen it before. A guy says they get a good deal on an engine for say $2000. They get it and start budgeting for the install. By the time you are done, you have another $2000 just in parts, supplies, and fluids. It adds up fast and it's something to be aware of.

With your swap, do you have a good radiator? The GSLSE rad will probably **** the bed early on and not cool well enough. Oil cooler? The FD one is small. Get an FC cooler. They are cheap and out there. Factor in all of the fluids, seals, fiddly bits, etc you will need. It adds up. There is no such thing as a drop in swap, unless you are replacing an engine with an exact unit. Budgets kinda get shot to hell in this game.

Take your time. Do it right. If it's sat for 10 years already, what's a little more time to get all of your ducks in a row?

DWNUNDR

iTrader: (1)

like I said I got everything pulled our of a running fd.. radiator, intercooler... oil cooler is the only thing I didnt get with it..

Not sure if its half assed if I am making custom mounts.. just a different route.. I can spend $400 in parts and still have to modify some... or just make a couple of engine mounts and customize the existing pan...

neither of those things are hard just time... being as I work as a machinist in a university research shop I can make almost anything I need once I have my dimensions, as we have everything from cnc equipment, welders of every type and a brand new flowjet...... also brother inlaw owns an industrial mixing factory that builds all sorts of steel products.. they regularly bend 1/2in"+ steel etc so fabricating bends etc isnt an issue.. comes back to time.. the photo attached is a quick part I knocked up last night to mount the FD trans into the fb.. He is bending it up today/tomorrow...

If I can spend $50 or less in steel, fabricate mounts that isnt half assed imo (if done well)

that $400 I can use towards oil cooler, brake parts, bushings... yada yada... not about being cheap but about being wise with finances haha...

that being said.. I am also watching for bargains for suggested parts too

thanks for your insight/info... I do appreciate it even if it seems like I dont...

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

The FD rad probably wont fit. I believe it's too wide. The oil cooler is small, even for an FD, unless its a front mount, so keep that in mind for space.

Your mount should work, but will it be isolated or a solid mount?

DWNUNDR

iTrader: (1)

thanks to your couple of posts and some others I am going your route...

thanks.. after spending half a day with a buddy looking at a few ways to go about it I have decided it is better to listen to others who have a lot more experience and have done the swaps.. yes there is always new ways to do it.. but I figure (to my wifes displeasure) that I am going to spend the cash and get a few needed parts and use my labor that way.. so it should end up close to a factory like setup

but man finding a cover is hard to do haha

DWNUNDR

iTrader: (1)

I have all the needed stuff for the 12 cover etc, but I am going to experiment before swapping it out.. I am currently designing some weld in mounts that I plan on jigging and welding to the front fd cover... my goal is to keep everything as it came and make mounting points like the 12 cover to mount to the stock gslse mounts... then switch oil pans etc.. worth a try.. doesnt work Ive lost some time at work

DWNUNDR

iTrader: (1)

also in that photo what water pump is being used?? I dont see anything....

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Just be careful of warping. The front cover has that 0-ring where the full pressure from the oil pump goes through it. People have a hard enough time keeping that sealed.

DWNUNDR

iTrader: (1)

ok.. figured Id do the welding small parts at a time... and it will be bolted to the engine... so in a sense it is clamped from warpage... put some sort of blanket material on it to allow a slower cooling and that would help too...

just trying to think differently... try something new... around here it goes either way.. you are either a hero or a villain when you do hahah spending all this time at work on it I may just scrap the idea hahaha